Are children giving to us as a gift - or as a trust?

[2xx1xy1JD]

One line I'm seeing over and over again in the fundie/QF world is that "children are a gift".

The lawyer in me asks if this is true, and if it is really the best way to think of the parent/child relationship.

Legally, a gift is something that is given with no strings attached. I can (and did) ditch my more hideous wedding gifts in my parents' basement until they were destroyed by a flood. I can re-gift a present. If I get money as a gift, I can use it for whatever I want, no matter how foolish or even offensive my spending is to the person who gave me the money.

Now, another line that's commonly used is "why would anyone refuse a gift?" or "no one refuses any other gift". Are they kidding? Maybe I'm just socially backward, but I refuse gifts all the time (or re-gift them or toss them in the flood-prone basement, see above). I'm tempted to go up to anyone who says one of these lines and offer them a new puppy.

So no, I don't like the "gift" analogy or image. My kids weren't sent strictly for my pleasure, I don't "own" them, and they come with obligations. I don't consider them to be returnable or exchangeable, and I certainly can't throw them in the basement for years.

Instead, my term of choice would be that children are given in trust. Legally, when you receive property is trust, it isn't truly yours because it comes with strings. You need to use if for a specific purpose, and you need to safeguard it and account for what you do with it. So, my kids are entrusted to me for so long as I am willing and able to care for them properly and be committed to raising them into fine adults. I've got to keep them safe. Ultimately, I think that I will have to account, in some cosmic sense, for how I parent them.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I like that idea!

It's also generally understood that you don't have any control over when other people decide to give you a gift. It could be your birthday, or your wedding or something, and you could say you don't want gifts but you can't really stop people from giving you one. And they can often give you gifts you don't want or need. I've often gotten birthday gifts from distant relatives that I didn't want at all. You also don't have to actively do anything to get a gift, it could be a special occasion but there's nothing required of you, it's just given. You're not going to just get handed a kid, and you have to do something before you get one (have unprotected sex, adopt, etc).

I don't like the idea that kids are given to people at all, just because that takes away responsibility for having the children in the first place. I guess it's kind of like a gift you buy yourself, at least it should be, because you have a choice whether you have children or how many. Though I do think your idea of children as a trust is much better, and I wish everyone saw their children that way.

[uber frau]

That's always been my sentiment. I tell my kids that we're just borrowing them until they're eighteen :).

[dawbs]

Ya know that makes sense for how Fundie-dom describes 'stewardship'. I'm 905 sure I've heard it that way re: both 'stuff' and kids

We're told that nothing belongs to us, we are just stewards for things the Lord has shared...

So children aren't 'our' gifts, they're something we raise but they 'truly' belong to God...

(i'll also say, OP, your way of thinking sounds free-ing.

When I've heard this in fundie-dom, it sounds...damning)

ETA, I found 2 'Christian' tracts that kinda went this route--I still feel these are 'see, make the right parenting choices or else', but that may be my own baggage. Linkage to 1 (breaking link) (#2 will be getting it's own post.)

alphabeacon.org/files/ACSI-CSC/ACSI_CSC_43_06_ParentsAsStewards.pdf

[emmiedahl]

I consider them a trust, and also an investment.

You put all this time and money into a creature with the hope that you'll get paid off somehow someday, in love or naches or free elder care or whatever. You might not get it back, but then again you might. Some people are not at a point where they can afford to invest in a child, and there is no problem with *not* doing so.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I consider them a trust, and also an investment.

You put all this time and money into a creature with the hope that you'll get paid off somehow someday, in love or naches or free elder care or whatever. You might not get it back, but then again you might. Some people are not at a point where they can afford to invest in a child, and there is no problem with *not* doing so.

Traditionally, kids were an investment - they were free labor, and eventually your sick benefits and retirement plan. I'm just not crazy about that model, since it also relies on tons of guilt in order to "collect" on your investment.

[Arete]

What are naches?

[reds]

I like the idea of Trust too.

To me the kids are my responsibility. I choose to have them. I choose to raise them. I will be ultimately responsible for the morals that they learn from me.

Once they turn an age that they are able to reason and understand, may it be 14 or 34 (God! please not 34) then they have to start taking responsibility of themselves for themselves.

Eventually they will have to make the same decisions that I did in regards to their own lives and children.

If they were a gift from God or anyone else, I could have, and at times would want to, "Return to Sender"

Heck i have returned worse things to Costco and Canadian Tire. (They just wont take the kids... not even for straight store credit.) :shifty:

[emmiedahl]

What are naches?

I'm sorry, I used a non-English word which is quite rude. It is a Yiddish term that does not really have a direct English equivalent, it refers to a mixture of pride and joy. It is usually used to describe one's children specifically. I have never heard it used outside of a parenting context, but I am sure it has been or could be.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'm sorry, I used a non-English word which is quite rude. It is a Yiddish term that does not really have a direct English equivalent, it refers to a mixture of pride and joy. It is usually used to describe one's children specifically. I have never heard it used outside of a parenting context, but I am sure it has been or could be.

The feeling that a Jewish parent gets when their child becomes a doctor or lawyer, marries a nice Jewish spouse, produces beautiful grandchildren, visits regular in the retirement home and gives them life-long bragging rights.

The stereotype is that Jewish mothers are known for inflicting large amounts of guilt in order to get the maximum naches from their kids. This is one of the reasons that hubby and I tended to relate more to our Asian friends than non-ethnic white friends who came from a "move out at 18, and do whatever you want to do that makes you happy" background.

[EmmieJ]

Instead, my term of choice would be that children are given in trust. Legally, when you receive property is trust, it isn't truly yours because it comes with strings. You need to use if for a specific purpose, and you need to safeguard it and account for what you do with it. So, my kids are entrusted to me for so long as I am willing and able to care for them properly and be committed to raising them into fine adults. I've got to keep them safe. Ultimately, I think that I will have to account, in some cosmic sense, for how I parent them.

I can certainly connect more with this idea (children given in trust) versus the "children are a gift" concept.

I certainly agree with the belief that I will have to account to a higher power for how well (or how poorly) I did in parenting the soul entrusted to my care.

[doggie]

the whole gift/blessing thing is that gifts that are given often start to become expected but not really appreciated as they don't take a lot of work to get. so it is much easier to treat them like they are your right and you can do anything you want in gods name or not to them. They are people that you are responsible for to make them independent people not your right arm political or religious tools.

[emmiedahl]

The feeling that a Jewish parent gets when their child becomes a doctor or lawyer, marries a nice Jewish spouse, produces beautiful grandchildren, visits regular in the retirement home and gives them life-long bragging rights.

The stereotype is that Jewish mothers are known for inflicting large amounts of guilt in order to get the maximum naches from their kids. This is one of the reasons that hubby and I tended to relate more to our Asian friends than non-ethnic white friends who came from a "move out at 18, and do whatever you want to do that makes you happy" background.

I try not to inflict a lot of guilt, but I have high expectations because my children are so very talented and brilliant.

Oh, wait, isn't that what every Jewish mom says?

I don't think it is limited to big achievements. Hearing my daughter play violin, seeing my son get really mad about injustice, these things are amazing.

[Swamptribe]

It seems that many fundies confuse the term 'stewardship' with ownership. This is very evident in their attitudes towards such things as the enviroment. The denial of global warming (which, sigh, doesn't mean the world is getting warmer). They seem to have the attitude that things under their 'stewardship', such as a wife, children, enviroment, are put there for their use and personal edification.

[desertvixen]

I think that children are more of a trust - or a responsibility.

I love my daughter, and she is one of the greatest joys in my life. Raising her is also my biggest responsibility, but the reward (to me) is watching her become her own person.

[Patsy]

Now, another line that's commonly used is "why would anyone refuse a gift?" or "no one refuses any other gift". ... My kids weren't sent strictly for my pleasure, I don't "own" them, and they come with obligations.

:clap: :clap: damn straight

[Elle]

We literally own our children as much as we can own black slaves. We can't. We own the gifts given to us. We can not own people, even those in our care.

[Arete]

The feeling that a Jewish parent gets when their child becomes a doctor or lawyer, marries a nice Jewish spouse, produces beautiful grandchildren, visits regular in the retirement home and gives them life-long bragging rights.

The stereotype is that Jewish mothers are known for inflicting large amounts of guilt in order to get the maximum naches from their kids. This is one of the reasons that hubby and I tended to relate more to our Asian friends than non-ethnic white friends who came from a "move out at 18, and do whatever you want to do that makes you happy" background.

Thank you for explaining ladies. I think it's pretty cool to learn the meaning of foreign words. :mrgreen: I definitely vote kids are a trust.