Caleb

[RR88]

I was watching some clips where Michelle talked about being pregnant with Jubilee. Why does she sometimes say she has 20 children, and sometimes she says she has 21? Does Caleb only count some of the time?

[0KidsAndHappy]

Caleb only counts when Jim Bob is there to point it out are enough people on a forum and in comment sections ask "What about Caleb" and she has to re-record a memorial.

[Tator Tot Tubby]

Because they didn't have time to clean up all her slip ups I guess...... I honestly wonder if Caleb was even real. I think they made him/her up and because of that, they don't remember to mention him/her.

[Elle]

Depends on how often she remembers him or someone reminds her. I can't help but question whether she was even pregnant that time, or just though being late for her period by a few days meant a miscarriage. Supposedly they always planned to go with the J-names, so it's odd that that one has a non-J-name and isn't even remembered all the time. I feel bad on the one hand questioning whether a miscarriage even happened, but they are just too inconsistent.

[ElphabaGalinda]

I was watching some clips where Michelle talked about being pregnant with Jubilee. Why does she sometimes say she has 20 children, and sometimes she says she has 21? Does Caleb only count some of the time?

Because in her mind Caleb didn't really count, and she only brings him up when someone points out the hypocrisy of not counting him. I sometimes think that if she wasn't on TV, and didn't get all the press attention she wouldn't have had that big funeral for Jubilee, or counted her among her children. There's no right or wrong way to feel about the loss of a pregnancy, but Michelle is a hypocrite who does everything she does for attention. Probably having 19 kids is included in that.

[currywurst]

I think it is because having a miscarriage is not half as traumatizing as Michelle makes it out to be (memorial service, etc).* It's just a fundie way of attention whoring.

*Don't get me wrong, having a miscarriage is not a pleasant experience, but it is not on the same level as losing a living child.

[bananacat]

I think that for all their talk about life beginning at conception, even they don't truly feel that an early pregnancy is the same thing as an actual baby. Miscarriages can certainly be sad for wanted pregnancies, but usually not as sad as a stillbirth or infant death. It's normal to feel less connection to a pregnancy in the first trimester because it really isn't the same thing as a baby. But their actual feelings about it don't line up with the anti-abortion message that they tell people, so they have to keep being reminded that "Caleb" should matter more than "he" did. I think the miscarriage did actually happen and that they were genuinely sad about it, but I also think that they didn't name it at the time and they weren't as sad as they would have been if they had lost an actual baby.

I think they were a little more sad about Jubilee because that pregnancy was farther along, but again I don't think they were as sad as they would have been to lose an actual baby. I think they were saddest that the would lose the attention and probably the ability to have more children. I think that if they weren't famous at the time, their sadness would have been on the scale somewhere more than the early miscarriage, but less than they would have been if an actual baby had died. That's normal. That's how most people would feel about a wanted pregnancy. But again, they pretend to believe that a fertilized egg is exactly the same as a newborn baby, so they can't publicly show a normal amount of sadness. They have to put on a show and pretend that it is as tragic as losing an infant.

[Conuly]

I think it is because having a miscarriage is not half as traumatizing as Michelle makes it out to be (memorial service, etc).* It's just a fundie way of attention whoring.

*Don't get me wrong, having a miscarriage is not a pleasant experience, but it is not on the same level as losing a living child.

I think that, depending on the person and on the circumstances, it certainly may be as bad as some people make it out to be. I definitely think it's rude to tell people that you know how upset other folks were at various experiences, or that you know for a fact that their suffering isn't as bad as somebody else's. You may not see a miscarriage as as much of a big deal as some other people who do feel the need to grieve. That's fine, and good for you... but it's not fair to say you have insight on what the rest of the world is feeling. I mean, my mother's reaction to her miscarriage was profound relief because now she wouldn't have to pay for an abortion, but I don't expect everybody to feel *that* either.

And by saying that Michelle is just attention whoring (quite probably true - how long did it take her to get herself back in the spotlight on TV because of this?) in the same paragraph you say that having a miscarriage is basically NEVER as traumatizing as she makes it out to be (which for her looks like... well, it looks bad, because if *I* had just lost a kid, or felt like I had, I certainly wouldn't be on television talking about it ad nauseum) it sounds like you're saying "Anybody who feels grieved at the loss of a wanted child, even if that child wasn't yet born, is on the same level as Michelle Duggar, Fame Whore Extraordinaire!" which is... well, I can think of worse things to say about people, but not many.

I was watching some clips where Michelle talked about being pregnant with Jubilee. Why does she sometimes say she has 20 children, and sometimes she says she has 21? Does Caleb only count some of the time?

Other people have noticed this. Maybe they'd remember Caleb more if he were Jaleb instead. I think it's proof that they've changed their stories a lot, and that they never thought at the time (or since then) deep down that potential-kid-Caleb was *really* a child. That's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint... but it's damn hypocritical, as noted, when you compare that attitude to the circus which was Jubilee.

I sometimes think that if she wasn't on TV, and didn't get all the press attention she wouldn't have had that big funeral for Jubilee, or counted her among her children.

You're probably right. If nothing else, they would not have had the MONEY for a big funeral, or most likely even a SMALL funeral. Those things cost.

It's normal to feel less connection to a pregnancy in the first trimester because it really isn't the same thing as a baby.

Indeed it is, though people vary. If some people claim they feel very upset, I generally try to avoid calling them liars without further proof. I don't care what's in their minds anyway. Lying, being honest - whatever. In Michelle's case it's fairly clear that there's more going on than just deep emotions. That's the trouble with selling your life to TLC - the whole world can make a fairly accurate assessment of you because they've been invited into your home for the past several years.

[CanadianHippie]

Supposedly they always planned to go with the J-names, so it's odd that that one has a non-J-name and isn't even remembered all the time.

I don't think I've ever heard from them or any other source they always planned to go with all J names.

[Coconut Flan]

I think I remember Michelle explaining about the J names that they didn't settle on it until after Jana and John David. Then it became if we only have one more we wouldn't want them to be the one with a different letter. I'm not sure that there is any excuse for Caleb's name except he was named after the fact and didn't really count so he could have been named anything. That's my suspicion.

I have to doubt that they would have gone to quite the lengths that they did for Jubilee's funeral without TLC's "encouragement." TLC needed a big episode either a birth or a funeral so the viewers got the funeral.

[slickcat79]

I think that for all their talk about life beginning at conception, even they don't truly feel that an early pregnancy is the same thing as an actual baby. Miscarriages can certainly be sad for wanted pregnancies, but usually not as sad as a stillbirth or infant death. It's normal to feel less connection to a pregnancy in the first trimester because it really isn't the same thing as a baby. But their actual feelings about it don't line up with the anti-abortion message that they tell people, so they have to keep being reminded that "Caleb" should matter more than "he" did. I think the miscarriage did actually happen and that they were genuinely sad about it, but I also think that they didn't name it at the time and they weren't as sad as they would have been if they had lost an actual baby.

That's my general feeling on the situation. You also have to think that 20+ years and 18 more children has helped heal the sense of loss as well. I think it's natural for Michelle to not think much of her early miscarriage at this point, and yet that loss has impacted their lives and their family more than anything else. They've built their whole brand around the idea that they don't use BC because it KILLED A BABY, and I think their reaction to the 2 miscarriages just points out the falseness of that.

[Feberin]

I think Michelle was probably very upest when she miscarried Caleb but it was a long time ago. I also don't think she ever counted him among her children until it was pointed out that she shouldn't count one miscarriage and not the other one. My theory about the name is that Michelle liked the name Caleb for a boy but they hadn't really named him until recently when they named Jubilee. If he'd had a name all this time then it seems odd it was never mentioned publicly in all the interviews and such where they talk about how that miscarraige caused them to stop using birth control.

[FloraDoraDolly]

My take on it is that Michelle was indeed traumatized by the miscarriage that was Caleb. Or rather, she was traumatized by the doctor telling her that she basically killed her baby because she was taking birth control pills while pregnant. This is what started Michelle and Jim Bob down the Quiverfull/Gothard path. Before then, they were an ordinary Christian couple with one child (Josh), planning to have maybe one or two more kids and that's it.

However, the political and religious landscape has changed since the loss of Caleb. The pro-choice movement pointed out the hypocrisy of pro-lifers who consider aborted fetuses to be on the same level as a dead baby, yet at the same time these same pro-lifers do not (or rather, did not) hold funerals and give names to their fetuses who died via miscarriage the way they would if, say, they lost a three-day-old preemie. In response, more and more pro-lifers have begun to give names to their miscarried fetuses and hold religious ceremonies for them, although not on the scale as what the Duggars did for Jubilee. They took that to an entirely new level.

[Little Miss Alien]

Depends on how often she remembers him or someone reminds her. I can't help but question whether she was even pregnant that time, or just though being late for her period by a few days meant a miscarriage. Supposedly they always planned to go with the J-names, so it's odd that that one has a non-J-name and isn't even remembered all the time. I feel bad on the one hand questioning whether a miscarriage even happened, but they are just too inconsistent.

MTE. When I was 18 I was due to have a vaccination through the school health program. Back then, the school nurses used to ask you when your last period was*. At the time, I was chronically underweight due to major health problems, so my periods were somewhat irregular. I told her it had been 5 weeks since my last period. She immediately believed I was pregnant. I tried to explain I couldn't possibly be, because I was on the pill, but she insisted that I had probably taken the pill incorrectly and because I had a boyfriend I was almost definitely pregnant. She refused to give the vax, but I begged her to. She said I'd probably miscarry then. I said I didn't care. She gave me the vax.

A few days later I had a really bad period start. Because of that, and what the nurse had said, I spent the next 5-7 years believing I had been pregnant and miscarried.

When I got pregnant with my son, I realised I had definitely never been pregnant before!

My thoughts are that Michelle, being a naieve 21 year old, may have believed the crap the doctor spouted that she had got pregnant and miscarried, and has believed that ever since. She could have just had a random heavy period at that time and believed she miscarried. At that age, most of us do look up to authority figures, and for Michelle, probably extra blindly than the majority!

*Thankfully now they just ask them is there any chance they COULD be pregnant, and rely on the girl's assertions, rather than trying to tell young girls they know their bodies better than they do, and that periods are always on a 28 day cycle.

[Conuly]

At the time, I was chronically underweight due to major health problems, so my periods were somewhat irregular. I told her it had been 5 weeks since my last period.

That's awful, and your period situation was by no means unique or even all that unusual! 35 days is not that long between periods at all, in fact! I'm glad they changed policies. My goodness, what an awful thing to do to a young woman!

[lilith]

Just my theory.....

Jubilee was a planned baby. They actively tried to conceive her and were aware of the pregnancy for months, in which time she became real to them. She represented not just a new life but the continuation of Michelle's fertility and a path to more public acclaim. She was important to them in many ways, and them naming and honoring her is consistent with that. The funeral and accompanying hoopla like releasing the letter to her though, seem purely like pro life propoganda and I doubt they come from the heart.

Caleb was not planned, in fact they were actively trying to prevent pregnancy at the time. The first they knew of his existence was when Michelle miscarried him. So he never had a chance to become real to them, they never had the chance to invest hope in him. And he quickly came to represent their "sin" of using contraception, so they probably chose not to think too much about the baby they "murdered". I don't believe they named him, althouh maybe Michelle chose to privately think of him as Caleb rather that "baby I murdered through my selfish sin". The miscarriage is not mentioned in the first special when Michelle talks about her conviction to allow God to determine family size, and I would be surprised if it was regularly talked about at all outside of ATI testimonies.

Simply put, Jubilee represented hope and Caleb shame, and that explains the difference in how their miscarriages were treated.

[Conuly]

Simply put, Jubilee represented hope and Caleb shame, and that explains the difference in how their miscarriages were treated.

That's very generous of you. You might even be right. It's certainly a lot to think about.

[NurseNell]

I think it is because having a miscarriage is not half as traumatizing as Michelle makes it out to be (memorial service, etc).* It's just a fundie way of attention whoring.

*Don't get me wrong, having a miscarriage is not a pleasant experience, but it is not on the same level as losing a living child.

That depends on the woman having the miscarriage, and also how far along the pregnancy was. If you've been through infertility and you at last get pregnant, only to have a miscarriage, the loss can be devastating. If I had had a miscarriage in the 2nd trimester, as Michelle did, it would have been a major traumatic event.

[lilwriter85]

I think Michelle was probably very upest when she miscarried Caleb but it was a long time ago. I also don't think she ever counted him among her children until it was pointed out that she shouldn't count one miscarriage and not the other one. My theory about the name is that Michelle liked the name Caleb for a boy but they hadn't really named him until recently when they named Jubilee. If he'd had a name all this time then it seems odd it was never mentioned publicly in all the interviews and such where they talk about how that miscarraige caused them to stop using birth control.

This. I think the same thing too.

[Georgiana]

I've always found it strange that according to their story, they had a very early miscarriage and yet they were/are in not doubt of the gender of the fetus. I also sometimes wonder if Michelle skipped a few periods due to the pill and assumed pregnancy instead of just missed ovulation. I mean, its technically possible to tell the gender at 12 weeks, but its very difficult until later in the pregnancy.

[JenniferJuniper]

I've always found it strange that according to their story, they had a very early miscarriage and yet they were/are in not doubt of the gender of the fetus. I also sometimes wonder if Michelle skipped a few periods due to the pill and assumed pregnancy instead of just missed ovulation. I mean, its technically possible to tell the gender at 12 weeks, but its very difficult until later in the pregnancy.

IIRC, they acknowledge that they never knew the sex of the fetus. Which just makes the whole "Joshua and Caleb" story more suspect to me. If you really like the idea of having a Joshua and a Caleb, why not save the name for your second son rather than go for "John"? If you never even knew the gender of the miscarriage, there's especially no harm no foul. And on a related note, I seriously doubt Jubilee would have ended up with that ridiculous name had she been born a live baby. Aside from the rhyming twins names, the Duggars have never gone too far off the reservation with their kids' names. Aside from the J thing, of course.

[FJismyheadship]

They named their daughter Jinger. Thats pretty weird. lol.

[lilith]

IIRC, they acknowledge that they never knew the sex of the fetus. Which just makes the whole "Joshua and Caleb" story more suspect to me. If you really like the idea of having a Joshua and a Caleb, why not save the name for your second son rather than go for "John"? If you never even knew the gender of the miscarriage, there's especially no harm no foul. And on a related note, I seriously doubt Jubilee would have ended up with that ridiculous name had she been born a live baby. Aside from the rhyming twins names, the Duggars have never gone too far off the reservation with their kids' names. Aside from the J thing, of course.

Ummmm....

Jordyn Grace Makya?

Jinger?

Jenesis as a suggestion?

Judah as a suggestion for Jackson?

They are all pretty out there. Jubilee for a live baby would not have surprised me at all.

[Aerial312]

Ummmm....

Jordyn Grace Makya?

Jinger?

Jenesis as a suggestion?

Judah as a suggestion for Jackson?

They are all pretty out there. Jubilee for a live baby would not have surprised me at all.

I've seen Jubilee pop up as a fundie name before Doug Philliips has a Jubilee (all of his kids have weird religious names: Providence, Liberty, etc.)

I don't think think Jordyn or Judah are such strange names, but they've definitely had some out there suggestions (and yeah, Jinger with J is definitely out there.)

[donks]

I remember vague mention of miscarriage #w a whole back, but not necessarily it's name.

Anyone recall when it became Caleb?