Take that Divorce! Or, my kids better not EVER divorce!

[fluttershies]

That's cool. I don't give a shit what reasons their religion gives for divorce. I could care the fuck less.

Look, my point is that Christians (whether Catholic or not), at least outwardly pretend that marriage is sacred and important. So sacred, in fact, that they want to stop gay people from getting married, lest in ruin their sacred unities. If they can get divorced and split up for any reason at all, then clearly there is absolutely nothing sacred about their union whatsoever. They might as well just be two people who were living together. That is where the whole vows problem comes in. According to Christian belief, the thing the separates two people merely living together from two "married" people, is that the married people took sacred vows, in public, as god as their witness. Fine. That is their belief and I do not give a flying fudge. That is their own thing. My problem is that these people think they have the moral high ground to tell the rest of us what a "real" marriage is, when, as far as I can tell, most of their marriages are no more real than two people who are merely living together. They get divorced whenever they jolly well feel like it, for whatever reason. Like I said, that's cool. If that is what they want to do, fine. BUT!!!! These people are not in any position to dictate what "marriage" means to the rest of us. That is what I am calling them out on. Please let me be clear: I do not give one single shit who gets divorced or why. That is why I do not feel I can tell other people how to live in that area of their life. First, it is none of my business, and second, I do not have the moral high ground to make that determination. Now, I have admitted that. Why can't the nations "Christians" do the same?

But they can't get divorced for just any reason - they're limited to marital infidelity, abuse/desertion or a spouse not believing. Also, there is a difference between special and sacred. Marriage is special but for Protestants it's not sacred, because it's not a sacrament. Again, educate yourself on what you're talking about before you comment.

Also, as a queer Christian myself, I am certainly not trying to prevent gay people from getting married.

[currywurst]

But they can't get divorced for just any reason - they're limited to marital infidelity, abuse/desertion or a spouse not believing. Also, there is a difference between special and sacred. Marriage is special but for Protestants it's not sacred, because it's not a sacrament. Again, educate yourself on what you're talking about before you comment.

Also, as a queer Christian myself, I am certainly not trying to prevent gay people from getting married.

Fine by me. I do not care what these people call their marriages; in public they constantly refer to the "sanctity of marriage." That means they think marriage is sacred (at least that is what they are saying). They speak of sanctity, so that is what I have to work with.

I realize that (Protestant) Christian belief limits people to divorce only under those specific circumstances, BUT lots and lots and LOTS of people who made those vows got divorced for reasons other than those listed. As I said, I could care less. Don't matter to me. But by that same token not one of those people is in a position to preach to the rest of us about matrimony and how holy it is. Fuck these people and their hypocrisy. We can split hairs all day about the difference between the words "special" and "sacred," but that is not going to change the fact that the Christian right in this country is determined to have their own view of marriage be legally binding on the rest of us. I use the whole vows thing as a perfect example as to why they should not be allowed to make any laws regarding marriage. It is clear to me by their constant vow-making and vow-breaking that they do not know the first thing about what a Christian marriage actually is. Fine. I. DO. NOT. CARE. They can live in their own blissful hypocrisy so long as they are not trying to control my life with those hypocritical beliefs. Here is my caveat and here is where I will always call these assholes out.

[Bethella]

currywurst wrote:

I think this woman is nuts, but she is right about something: if you are devout Christian, and you make a vow to God, then you cannot break that vow. Thems the rules. You don't like it, you don't have to subscribe to Christianity (for example, I don't like it, thus I am not a Christian).

Koala wrote:

Sure you can.

I agree. My aunt had some issues with being a Catholic and getting a divorce. She ended up getting a civil divorce and threw him out of the house. BUT she never got an annulment from the church and "honored" her marriage vows (i.e. she didn't start a new relationship) until after he died (drug overdose).

Now, I don't necessarily agree with her views, but I can respect that. She got herself and her children out of a bad situation while still remaining true to her beliefs.

[Effie]

It's so easy to blather on about 'making the ultimate sacrifice' when you've NEVER BEEN IN THAT SITUATION. Has Kelly ever feared for her life? Lay awake at night crying because she feels trapped and has nowhere to go? Been paralyzed by fear because of her husband's actions? Probably not. She needs to shut the ever-living fuck UP and stop telling women to die. I am so fucking pissed off.

She feared for her life, during the tornado. After the tornado, she got this idea that she had been tested in her faith just like Job. :roll: I think the tornado made her more haughty and less humble. I don't think she is capable of understanding people outside her little bubble. Anyway, I just went to her blog and saw several posts which make me even more furious, for example "Why I’m Not Teaching My Children to Follow Their Dreams" and "Raising Men in a Man-Hating World". I can't stand this woman. Sometimes I wonder if she is delusional.

[fluttershies]

Fine by me. I do not care what these people call their marriages; in public they constantly refer to the "sanctity of marriage." That means they think marriage is sacred (at least that is what they are saying). They speak of sanctity, so that is what I have to work with.

I realize that (Protestant) Christian belief limits people to divorce only under those specific circumstances, BUT lots and lots and LOTS of people who made those vows got divorced for reasons other than those listed. As I said, I could care less. Don't matter to me. But by that same token not one of those people is in a position to preach to the rest of us about matrimony and how holy it is. Fuck these people and their hypocrisy. We can split hairs all day about the difference between the words "special" and "sacred," but that is not going to change the fact that the Christian right in this country is determined to have their own view of marriage be legally binding on the rest of us. I use the whole vows thing as a perfect example as to why they should not be allowed to make any laws regarding marriage. It is clear to me by their constant vow-making and vow-breaking that they do not know the first thing about what a Christian marriage actually is. Fine. I. DO. NOT. CARE. They can live in their own blissful hypocrisy so long as they are not trying to control my life with those hypocritical beliefs. Here is my caveat and here is where I will always call these assholes out.

Well then why work yourself up so much about people who DON'T affect you? Is this blogger stopping you personally from getting divorced? No. Sure they might want to, but it's not actually happening at the moment.

Also, fundies do not speak for all Christians.

[currywurst]

Well then why work yourself up so much about people who DON'T affect you? Is this blogger stopping you personally from getting divorced? No. Sure they might want to, but it's not actually happening at the moment.

Also, fundies do not speak for all Christians.

I think you missed my point. I personally do not give a shit about other people's marriages and divorces. My issue is that many of those people give a shit about mine. These people DO affect me. They are horribly politically active and they are determined to get their interpretation of marriage to be enforced as law. They have worked tirelessly to get gay marriage defeated in many states and they have been quite successful. If that blogger had her way, none of us would ever be allowed to get a divorce. We come to this board to snark on people like that. I thought that was the point of this board :(

If I told you I was gay and have been wanting to marry my partner for years but live in a state where gay marriage was voted down partially due to the political campaigning of these people, would that change your mind at all? I am only asking that these people be held to the same standard that they claim to hold the rest of us to. I am actually sort of surprised that so few people here support this notion.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I think you missed my point. I personally do not give a shit about other people's marriages and divorces. My issue is that many of those people give a shit about mine. These people DO affect me. They are horribly politically active and they are determined to get their interpretation of marriage to be enforced as law. They have worked tirelessly to get gay marriage defeated in many states and they have been quite successful. If that blogger had her way, none of us would ever be allowed to get a divorce. We come to this board to snark on people like that. I thought that was the point of this board :(

It sure sounds like you "give a shit" here:

...if you are devout Christian, and you make a vow to God, then you cannot break that vow. Thems the rules. You don't like it, you don't have to subscribe to Christianity...

You can't assign rules for a specific portion of married people, based on the wording of their marriage ceremonies, and then turn around and say you don't care about their marriages.

[currywurst]

Quote:

...if you are devout Christian, and you make a vow to God, then you cannot break that vow. Thems the rules. You don't like it, you don't have to subscribe to Christianity...

You can't assign rules for a specific portion of married people, based on the wording of their marriage ceremonies, and then turn around and say you don't care about their marriages.

Um,I am not assigning any rules. These people assigned the rules to themselves.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Um,I am not assigning any rules. These people assigned the rules to themselves.

I used the word "assign" because, as many other posters have already pointed out, there are legitimate reasons why these women get divorced, but you are the one claiming that their vows are indissolvable.

[Wolfie]

As did I. I was merely pointing at that psycho fundie lady was actually making a decent point. Unfortunately here views are too extreme to be taken seriously, but the point still stands. When you make a vow to someone, it should have some real meaning attached to it. If you claim to be a Christian and you make a vow to someone under the auspices of the Christian belief system, then, in theory, you need to hold onto that vow under those same auspices. The problem is that basically no one does.

There are many Christians who agree with us that if there is abuse, it is okay to leave the marriage- BUT it is not okay to remarry as long as the abuser is still alive.

However, I agree with the majority here- that if there is abuse you need to GET OUT, you are not the one who broke the vow to begin with, the abuser did. There is no way, no how, that it is EVER right to stay somewhere where you could be killed, and to subject your children to that. Really, really, you think that if they make a vow they have to stay? I really hope you're playing devil's advocate here, because you have also stated, that in real life that you don't care.

[currywurst]

I am not claiming that, fundamentalist Christianity is claiming that. I guess they are claiming that based upon what Jesus said, namely that you can only divorce in cases of infidelity, and that you are supposed to forgive others 7 times 70. Ostensibly that would me you should forgive your spouse for lying or abuse. Also, a strict "reading" of marriage vows would lead one to believe that one spouse breaking the vows does not mean that the other spouse can. Nowhere is the vows does it say that they are contingent on the other spouse keeping his or her vows.

Do you all disagree with the above? Good. You should. It's absurd.

Hello, I have been calling fundamentalist Christianity out on how asinine their beliefs are. I am also calling "regular" Christianity out on how it really does not follow the Bible very strictly. I am pointing out that these vows are ridiculous and meaningless and that no reasonable person would ever adhere to them in any strict sense. Thus, I do not understand why any person would make these vows to begin with unless they were actual sincere about adhering to them.

[fluttershies]

I think you missed my point. I personally do not give a shit about other people's marriages and divorces. My issue is that many of those people give a shit about mine. These people DO affect me. They are horribly politically active and they are determined to get their interpretation of marriage to be enforced as law. They have worked tirelessly to get gay marriage defeated in many states and they have been quite successful. If that blogger had her way, none of us would ever be allowed to get a divorce. We come to this board to snark on people like that. I thought that was the point of this board :(

If I told you I was gay and have been wanting to marry my partner for years but live in a state where gay marriage was voted down partially due to the political campaigning of these people, would that change your mind at all? I am only asking that these people be held to the same standard that they claim to hold the rest of us to. I am actually sort of surprised that so few people here support this notion.

No, because you're putting restrictions on people that actually, they don't put on themselves. If you could get married, you would expect to be able to get divorced, right? So why shouldn't Christians also be able to get divorced when their belief system DOES allow for it?

This particular blogger's attitude towards divorce is not the Christian norm, so what has it got to do with Christians who do get divorced? They don't exactly harm the cause of equal marriage.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I am not claiming that, fundamentalist Christianity is claiming that. I guess they are claiming that based upon what Jesus said, namely that you can only divorce in cases of infidelity, and that you are supposed to forgive others 7 times 70. Ostensibly that would me you should forgive your spouse for lying or abuse. Also, a strict "reading" of marriage vows would lead one to believe that one spouse breaking the vows does not mean that the other spouse can. Nowhere is the vows does it say that they are contingent on the other spouse keeping his or her vows.

Do you all disagree with the above? Good. You should. It's absurd.

Hello, I have been calling fundamentalist Christianity out on how asinine their beliefs are. I am also calling "regular" Christianity out on how it really does not follow the Bible very strictly. I am pointing out that these vows are ridiculous and meaningless and that no reasonable person would ever adhere to them in any strict sense. Thus, I do not understand why any person would make these vows to begin with unless they were actual sincere about adhering to them.

You can't have both.

ETA before you claim this blogger's interpretation isn't actually in the bible, you left behind numerous posts, including this one, saying you do in fact believe that a "Vow before god" is unbreakable.

[fluttershies]

I am not claiming that, fundamentalist Christianity is claiming that. I guess they are claiming that based upon what Jesus said, namely that you can only divorce in cases of infidelity, and that you are supposed to forgive others 7 times 70. Ostensibly that would me you should forgive your spouse for lying or abuse. Also, a strict "reading" of marriage vows would lead one to believe that one spouse breaking the vows does not mean that the other spouse can. Nowhere is the vows does it say that they are contingent on the other spouse keeping his or her vows.

Do you all disagree with the above? Good. You should. It's absurd.

Hello, I have been calling fundamentalist Christianity out on how asinine their beliefs are. I am also calling "regular" Christianity out on how it really does not follow the Bible very strictly. I am pointing out that these vows are ridiculous and meaningless and that no reasonable person would ever adhere to them in any strict sense. Thus, I do not understand why any person would make these vows to begin with unless they were actual sincere about adhering to them.

Only, you don't get to dictate what others believe.

[currywurst]

You can't have both.

ETA before you claim this blogger's interpretation isn't actually in the bible, you left behind numerous posts, including this one, saying you do in fact believe that a "Vow before god" is unbreakable.

Hello....that is what I have been asking. That is the discussion I have been trying to have with all of you! What is a vow then, if it is not something sacred and unbreakable? This is the point I have been trying to drive home! What is a vow? I agree with all of you on the reasons to get a divorce. I think those are all fine reasons. Cool. I do not personally think that a vow before god in unbreakable....I do not even believe in god. What I am asking is what a vow means according to Christian belief. It would be my understanding that a vow to God is an incredibly solemn, life-long, unbreakable promise (without severe spiritual consequences). So I am seriously asking, what is a Christian marriage vow then?

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Hello....that is what I have been asking. That is the discussion I have been trying to have with all of you! What is a vow then, if it is not something sacred and unbreakable? This is the point I have been trying to drive home! What is a vow? I agree with all of you on the reasons to get a divorce. I think those are all fine reasons. Cool. I do not personally think that a vow before god in unbreakable....

But for some reason it should be for other people?

Other posters have already posted several different interpretations.

[currywurst]

currywurst wrote:

I am not claiming that, fundamentalist Christianity is claiming that. I guess they are claiming that based upon what Jesus said, namely that you can only divorce in cases of infidelity, and that you are supposed to forgive others 7 times 70. Ostensibly that would me you should forgive your spouse for lying or abuse. Also, a strict "reading" of marriage vows would lead one to believe that one spouse breaking the vows does not mean that the other spouse can. Nowhere is the vows does it say that they are contingent on the other spouse keeping his or her vows.

Do you all disagree with the above? Good. You should. It's absurd.

Hello, I have been calling fundamentalist Christianity out on how asinine their beliefs are. I am also calling "regular" Christianity out on how it really does not follow the Bible very strictly. I am pointing out that these vows are ridiculous and meaningless and that no reasonable person would ever adhere to them in any strict sense. Thus, I do not understand why any person would make these vows to begin with unless they were actual sincere about adhering to them.

Only, you don't get to dictate what others believe.

No I do not. You can believe whatever you want. I said I think you should agree with me. (and I really think you should ;) ) You, of course, do not have to agree with me.

[fluttershies]

No I do not. You can believe whatever you want. I said I think you should agree with me. (and I really think you should ;) ) You, of course, do not have to agree with me.

I was under the impression that proselytizing was frowned upon here.

[currywurst]

Other posters have already posted several different interpretations.

Not one person said what they thought a vow was, they only mentioned instances when breaking a vow was okay.

[fluttershies]

Hello....that is what I have been asking. That is the discussion I have been trying to have with all of you! What is a vow then, if it is not something sacred and unbreakable? This is the point I have been trying to drive home! What is a vow? I agree with all of you on the reasons to get a divorce. I think those are all fine reasons. Cool. I do not personally think that a vow before god in unbreakable....I do not even believe in god. What I am asking is what a vow means according to Christian belief. It would be my understanding that a vow to God is an incredibly solemn, life-long, unbreakable promise (without severe spiritual consequences). So I am seriously asking, what is a Christian marriage vow then?

Protestant marriage vows are certainly breakable for the reasons stated upthread. Sacraments are unbreakable, not vows.

[currywurst]

Protestant marriage vows are certainly breakable for the reasons stated upthread. Sacraments are unbreakable, not vows.

That's interesting. The nuances between the two elude me slightly. I still do not really understand what a vow, according to Christian belief, actually means. I know plenty of people have said when breaking a vow is okay. I just want to know what the vow itself is all about.

[fluttershies]

That's interesting. The nuances between the two elude me slightly. I still do not really understand what a vow, according to Christian belief, actually means. I know plenty of people have said when breaking a vow is okay. I just want to know what the vow itself is all about.

Basically a sacrament is a sacred rite, that gets its importance directly from God - for most Protestants, this is baptism and Holy Communion only (although not all Protestants have both or any - the Salvation Army for instance does not do any kind of Holy Communion). A vow is akin to a contract - marriage is a contract between two people for most Protestants, but is a sacrament involving God Himself to Catholics. When one person goes against their side of the contract (since most vows include something about honouring your spouse, that would include abuse), the contract is invalidated and both people are released from their obligations. But because God is involved for Catholics, it's not possible for the contract to be broken - even if the couple legally divorce, in the eyes of the Church they are still married.

Does vow = contract help any?

In the Bible formal vows aren't involved in making people married anyway - just setting up home together and consummating the marriage with sex. While vows shouldn't be taken lightly, they're not actually required.

[bicyclecat]

There are two Biblical reasons for a divorce: Sexual infidelity and a non believer leaving a believing spouse. Abuse is covered under the non believing spouse clause. These are valid reasons to end a marriage, regardless of what Kelly has to say about it. For her to claim otherwise is going against the authority of God and... the Bible has a lot to say about false prophets.

My husband abandoned me two weeks after I started chemotherapy treatment and while I was dealing with severe febrile neutropenia, which can be fatal, if not treated aggressively and completely. God is not going to have a problem with my divorce, as he said so in the Bible. My family and friends are happy that I'm divorcing him, because they're tired of him treating me essentially like a slave and figuratively beating me into the ground. My church is happy to see that we've split up, because they want the best for me and hope to see me find a wonderful, genuinely Christian man to be with, instead of a guy who professed to be a Christian, but joined a new age cult right after we got married.

If Kelly, or any other fundie, has a problem with this, there's a line of asses for them to kiss, because nobody who actually cares about me wants this marriage to continue. Including my pastor.

[SpeakNow]

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I was astonished and appalled at this 'letter'.

raisinghomemakers.com/2012/a-letter-to-my-children-about-marriage/

In my own (albeit limited) experience of marriage, it is nothing like that. And her poor kids, they will never get support if they want to leave abusive spouses, will they?

So much snark potential!

My boyfriend's sister just posted a link to this on her Facebook along with the comment "words to live by." :doh: I suppose this is what happens when you date someone who used to be fundie-lite.

Edited because I really do know how to write a grammatically correct sentence.

[valsa]

There are two Biblical reasons for a divorce: Sexual infidelity and a non believer leaving a believing spouse. Abuse is covered under the non believing spouse clause.

I'm getting a definite No True Scotsman vibe from the bolded part.

While I'm not invested enough to comment on currywurst's take on this specific subject, I think I do understand where she's coming from (in a general sense) I freely admit that I think Christianity (and almost every other major religion) is pretty much shit, so maybe that's why I get it. A lot of people here like to comment on the fact that fundies tend to latch onto one or two specific passages from the Bible that back up their hateful view of the world and completely miss anything in the Bible that contradicts what they want to believe. However, a lot of moderate/liberal Christians do the same, from the other end of the spectrum. They latch onto a couple of the "feel good" passages and miss all the violent and horrible shit that they're supposed to follow and believe as well. Or they rationalize it away (just like a lot of fundies do)

I think currywurst is pointing out that if you're going to call yourself Christian and ignoring the shitty parts of the Bible because you don't like them, you're a hypocrite (just as much as the fundies who call themselves Christian and avoid the good parts of the Bible because they don't like them)