Take that Divorce! Or, my kids better not EVER divorce!

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Yeah, that's about the level of maturity most modern Christians have regarding their relationship with their god.

You missed the (metaphorical) point. If you don't believe in the Christian god, why are you upset that people aren't holding to their vows to a deity you don't believe in?

[Loveday]

Yeah, that's about the level of maturity most modern Christians have regarding their relationship with their god.

That's a rather sweeping, and in my view, unwarranted generalisation. 'Most' modern Christians just quietly go about their daily lives without getting all up into other people's business like the fundies do. Please don't lump all Christians together--fundies are still the minority, thankfully, although unfortunately they're extremely loud, which makes them seem like the majority. :(

Edited for clarity.

[currywurst]

currywurst wrote:

Quote:

I get where you're coming from. I hate it when my kids breaks the vows they made to Santa Clause to be good so they'll get present on Christmas. I mean, they promised him right in the middle of the mall and everything,but then, when it's convenient to throw a fit, that all goes out the window.

Yeah, that's about the level of maturity most modern Christians have regarding their relationship with their god.

You missed the (metaphorical) point. If you don't believe in the Christian god, why are you upset that people aren't holding to their vows to a deity you don't believe in?

I am not upset in the least. I could care the hell less if someone gets a divorce. What I really do not like is hypocrisy coming from people who, if they had their way, would make sure that the rest of us lived in a "Christian" world which conformed with their beliefs. I am merely pointing out that the whole "vow" thing is completely meaningless. I submit the whole "making of vows" is just something which most Christians do for show. If it can be broken at any time, for any reason, then it is not exactly a vow. It is just some words mumbled in front of some guy in some building.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I am not upset in the least. I could care the hell less if someone gets a divorce. What I really do not like is hypocrisy coming from people who, if they had their way, would make sure that the rest of us lived in a "Christian" world which conformed with their beliefs. I am merely pointing out that the whole "vow" thing is completely meaningless. I submit the whole "making of vows" is just something which most Christians do for show. If it can be broken at any time, for any reason, then it is not exactly a vow. It is just some words mumbled in front of some guy in some building.

Congratulations, most of us realized that years ago.

[MrsYoungie]

I think vowing or promising to do something is presumptuous. You can promise to try to do something but life, being what it is, throws obstacles in your way. Sometimes it is just not humanly possible to fulfill your vow.

Simplistic example: I promise to bring home milk after work. Boss ends up demanding that I work late. Stores are shut. No milk for you! Do I burn in hell for not fulfilling my promise?

Real life example: I promise to love you forever when we are married. You end up being a total douche who treats me like crap. As a result of said abuse I find that I do not love you any more. Do I burn in hell? Even if I don't leave? Can I force myself to love the unlovable?

[currywurst]

As did I. I was merely pointing at that psycho fundie lady was actually making a decent point. Unfortunately here views are too extreme to be taken seriously, but the point still stands. When you make a vow to someone, it should have some real meaning attached to it. If you claim to be a Christian and you make a vow to someone under the auspices of the Christian belief system, then, in theory, you need to hold onto that vow under those same auspices. The problem is that basically no one does.

Look, I do not care if someone breaks a stupid vow. I don't give a shit if someone gets married 50 times. I don't care if two guys get married in a Druid ceremony naked. I don't even care if a man is married to three wives, or a woman has ten husbands.

What does bother me however, are that there is a very large group of people out there (namely evangelical christians), who are trying desperately to shove their religion down our throats. They are desperate to deny us of basic human rights because it supposedly conflicts with their religion. They claim to worship the one and true god, and claim that that is all we need to do in order to be "saved." Yet these same people break their vows to him whenever they jolly well feel like. I get the impression that they are not even aware of it.

Please, I certainly do not think that anyone should stay in a bad marriage, and I really do not think anyone should have to endure abuse.

[currywurst]

I think vowing or promising to do something is presumptuous. You can promise to try to do something but life, being what it is, throws obstacles in your way. Sometimes it is just not humanly possible to fulfill your vow.

Simplistic example: I promise to bring home milk after work. Boss ends up demanding that I work late. Stores are shut. No milk for you! Do I burn in hell for not fulfilling my promise?

Real life example: I promise to love you forever when we are married. You end up being a total douche who treats me like crap. As a result of said abuse I find that I do not love you any more. Do I burn in hell? Even if I don't leave? Can I force myself to love the unlovable?

Well, that is why vows are stupid. Human nature and life circumstances do fit well with lifetime vows, which is why anyone claiming to be a Christian should probably think long and hard before they make a vow like that. Making a vow like that is a BIG DEAL.

[pixydust]

I think this woman is nuts, but she is right about something: if you are devout Christian, and you make a vow to God, then you cannot break that vow. Thems the rules. You don't like it, you don't have to subscribe to Christianity (for example, I don't like it, thus I am not a Christian).

Hmmm, my ex and I vowed to each other to love, honor, cherish, each other in sickness and health, rich and poor, till death do us part. What part of "love, honor, cherish" was choking me until I blacked out while holding our baby? Manipulating me so I wouldn't see my friends any more? Kicking in a baby gate because I was a "stupid, crazy, bitch"? Threatening suicide every time I told him I wasn't happy? HE broke our vows, not me. I moved out to protect myself and so my son didn't grow up thinking that this was how men treat women!

[currywurst]

currywurst wrote:

I think this woman is nuts, but she is right about something: if you are devout Christian, and you make a vow to God, then you cannot break that vow. Thems the rules. You don't like it, you don't have to subscribe to Christianity (for example, I don't like it, thus I am not a Christian).

Hmmm, my ex and I vowed to each other to love, honor, cherish, each other in sickness and health, rich and poor, till death do us part. What part of "love, honor, cherish" was choking me until I blacked out while holding our baby? Manipulating me so I wouldn't see my friends any more? Kicking in a baby gate because I was a "stupid, crazy, bitch"? Threatening suicide every time I told him I wasn't happy? HE broke our vows, not me. I moved out to protect myself and so my son didn't grow up thinking that this was how men treat women!

Well, if your husband is Christian and made a Christian vow, then he is going to have some serious issues to discuss with his god once he hits the pearly gates.

[BravaAmica]

Okay, then if you can break a vow whenever you want, there is no point to having made one in the first place. The whole concept is thus totally meaningless. Don't get me wrong, I think living one's life based up something said to an invisible sky wizard is insane, but either something has a meaning or it doesn't.

What about the abuser? He broke his vow to god when he started abusing his wife, thus rendering the marriage vow meaningless. Or is it only the woman who needs to be held accountable?

[Cannelle]

It's so easy to blather on about 'making the ultimate sacrifice' when you've NEVER BEEN IN THAT SITUATION. Has Kelly ever feared for her life? Lay awake at night crying because she feels trapped and has nowhere to go? Been paralyzed by fear because of her husband's actions? Probably not. She needs to shut the ever-living fuck UP and stop telling women to die. I am so fucking pissed off.

[Boogalou]

So... beating your wife and throwing battery acid on her was "stupid" and "needs forgiveness"? Yeah... okay. I'll forgive him right after he gets locked up in prison and has a bald man named Bubba pick him for his new girlfriend.

http://www.israpefunny.com/

Rape jokes generally don't go over well here. You might want to keep that in mind in the future.

http://stfurapeculture.tumblr.com/

[debrand]

I want to make something clear: I am an atheist and I loathe religion. One of the things I loathe about modern Christianity is the "salad bar" approach that basically all modern Christians have. They take this, leave that....it all boils down to what is convenient to them. I bring up the "vow" thing because it is what I consider one of the problems with salad bar Christianity. A vow means something when people want it to - i.e. on the actual wedding day, but then later, when the vow is no longer convenient, there is always a reason that the vow no longer "counts." Let's face it, most people get divorced because they simply do not like each other anymore (to me, that is perfectly fine). My issue is that most of those people got married in a church and took vows with each other as God as their witness. Not one part of those vows said "til we just don't like each other anymore." Well, I am just calling these people out on their hypocrisy.

Actually there is wiggle room for divorce. Jesus gave adultery as a reason for divorce and Paul mentioned that Christians could allow their unbelieving spouse to walk away from the marriage.

Bible verses seem to contradict one another so I'm not certain how fundies can claim to follow it exactly. All Christians have to pick and choose which parts that they believe god wants them to follow.

I knew an older woman who was in an abusive marriage. For the sake of her daughter, she left the marriage. However, she believed that she couldn't remarry so she turned down an offer from someone she loved. Even when her husband remarried, she didn't try to renew her relationship with the man she loved. I always felt deeply sorry for her and what her version of religion had done to her.

[Kaylee]

I think this woman is nuts, but she is right about something: if you are devout Christian, and you make a vow to God, then you cannot break that vow. Thems the rules. You don't like it, you don't have to subscribe to Christianity (for example, I don't like it, thus I am not a Christian).

No, the New Testament actually says not to make vows at all, because you can't change the things that you swear by.

(Matthew 5:33-38 & James 5:12)

Also, like ilovetchotchkes said, an abusive spouse has already broken their vows, so you are no longer bound to them. I spent a lot of time corresponding with a very conservative/Reformed pastor about abuse, divorce, and marital issues and he said pretty much the same thing - that a Christian is not biblically bound to stay with a nonChristian spouse who leaves, and by being abusive they have both denied their faith and abandoned the innocent spouse, because failing to love them and protect from harm is a form of abandonment.

[Hisey]

I think this woman is nuts, but she is right about something: if you are devout Christian, and you make a vow to God, then you cannot break that vow. Thems the rules. You don't like it, you don't have to subscribe to Christianity (for example, I don't like it, thus I am not a Christian).

Oh, please. People break their vows with God every day. What about "Thou Shalt Not Lie"?? I've probably broke that one already, and it's not even 10 a.m. Are you saying that the marriage vow is more important than the 10 Commandments?

I'm not a Christian, and I think divorce is the best thing ever for unhappy marriages. But even if I were a Christian, I'd think that divorce was one of those private matters that you decide after a lot of prayer and contemplation (and after your hubby had smashed up the furniture for the 100th time).

Putting such a big emphasis on divorce is not about keeping a vow to God. If it were, there'd be the same emphasis on lying and adultery. (Adultery by the husband, in christian circles, seems to instantly create an obligation on the part of the wife to "forgive." The man. . .well, was he getting enough sex? Was the wife submissive enough? Do we realize how visually driven they are?)

No, focusing on the evils of divorce is just a way of controlling women and enforcing the social structure.

[debrand]

Am I missing something? I don't get the disagreement with Currywurst, She/he seems to be saying something similar to what we all have been saying. Fundies pick and choose which verses to follow.It is a book that needs to be followed with common sense. I don't think that the different biblical authors meant for their words to be taken in the strict legalistic manner that fundies follow.

Of course, people shouldn't remain in deeply unhappy or abusive marriages. But I could understand how someone might misunderstand the bible as saying that they shoud stay. I think that they are reading their holy text without using the common sense that it was meant to be read, but I can understand why they might be confused.

What I can't understand is how a mother would put her religion before her children. Even if you believe that the bible does not allow divorce, how could you want your children to remain trapped in an abusive or miserable relationship? I just don't understand that. And what would drive a person to have such a strict, cruel interpretation of the bible? After all, neither Burris nor Mamajunebug, for instance, have such a sadistic view of god and faith. They both have a very beautiful concept of grace and love from reading the exact same bible as fundies

edited to add:it is possible that I've missed something that currywurst said. So I apologize if I did.

[FJismyheadship]

Jesus said not to make a vow. Instead let your yes be yes and your no be no. Everyone makes mistakes. Getting together with that abusive bastard was a mistake. So fix the mistake by divorcing him, get counseling, and move on. Have a better life for yourself and your kids if you have any.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Am I missing something? I don't get the disagreement with Currywurst, She/he seems to be saying something similar to what we all have been saying. Fundies pick and choose which verses to follow.It is a book that needs to be followed with common sense. I don't think that the different biblical authors meant for their words to be taken in the strict legalistic manner that fundies follow.

She posted this:

I think this woman is nuts, but she is right about something: if you are devout Christian, and you make a vow to God, then you cannot break that vow. Thems the rules. You don't like it, you don't have to subscribe to Christianity (for example, I don't like it, thus I am not a Christian).

Then when people started calling him/her out seeming to imply that Christian women should stay in bad relationships because of "Vows," s/he started claiming that her main problem was semantics about the word "vow."

But then in another thread s/he ran down other people who actually take their weddings and marriages seriously:

Seriously. I do everything in my power to avoid friends who are planning a wedding. I am busy and that is the last thing I need to deal with - especially since most all the weddings I get invited to are clearly "starter marriage" ones. I show up, get a modest gift, wish them luck, and move on with my life. I am always amazed at how much emotional energy women put into other people's weddings.

I don't think anyone would disagree with the picking and choosing, when irritated me was her claiming to be an atheist but demanding (in his/her view) down-to-the-letter obedience to a god s/he doesn't even believe in.

[debrand]

That makes a lot of sense glasscowcatcher. Thanks

[Glass Cowcatcher]

You're welcome.

[ADoyle90815]

Divorce is the BEST thing that happened to my former marriage. Period.

It happened before my offspring was really old enough to remember, and they still have hangups about it, but those hangups are absofrickinlutly better than what would have happened if we had stayed.

That's true in my case, but I was lucky that there were no children so I was able to cut my asshole ex completely out of my life.

[notsocommon]

It is so damn cute when someone who is so clearly clueless about Christianity, the Bible, and its teachings trys to take Christians to task.

Being a Christian is NOT about following a strict list of rules. Period, paragraph. The Bible, and Christian living is about grace. It is about falling, picking yourself up, dusting off, and moving on.... Prodigal son story, anyone? That story is just as much about the father (God) waiting for the return of the wayward child as much as it is about the prodigal.

That is the essence of the Christian life. We stray, we fail, but God is right there waiting on us, forgives us, and takes us back in.

Others have discussed the Biblical guidelines for the marital relationship, and how when one person breaks the vow, it releases the other, So I won't touch on that again. Simple concept, really, not sure wy it is so hard to grasp.

[currywurst]

I don't think anyone would disagree with the picking and choosing, when irritated me was her claiming to be an atheist but demanding (in his/her view) down-to-the-letter obedience to a god s/he doesn't even believe in.

I am not demanding obedience with anything. I think living a life of obedience to an invisible sky wizard is the stupidest way to live. I do not give a flying fuck if someone is obedient to God or not. I think wedding vows are completely stupid and make no sense in reality. I personally would never make a wedding vow like the one Christians do. My issue is that there are lots of "Christians" out there who claim to take these vows really seriously, but when it boils down to it, they are just like any other person: they get divorced when it is convenient to them; vows be damned. My point on this board is that those vows clearly have no meaning to them whatsoever. The vast majority of "Christians" do not concern themselves with those vows in the least. That's fine. Fuck it. Ain't my life. My problem is that these same people are hell-bent on telling the rest of us how to live. These same people - who care not a fig for their vows - think they are in the best position to dictate religious morality to the rest of us. Well, I personally will not stand for that. I am going to call these people out on it. Period. Apparently that has made me unpopular here, but I am still going forth with this. I think it is extremely important that these people be called out on their hypocrisy.

Finally, let me make this (again) very, VERY clear: I do not think that a person should for even one minute remain in an abusive relationship no matter what holy vows they made. Heck, I do not think people should remain in a merely unpleasant relationship, even if they vowed to a plethora of sky wizards not to. Also, what two people do in their own marriage is done of my damn business. They can do what they like. I don't care. What I care about is that these same people feel that they are in the best position to tell the rest of us what a SACRED MARRIAGE truly is, when it is clear to me that, not only do they not know what that is, they do not even follow their own personal religious beliefs.

This is why I played devil's advocate with crazy fundie lady. She is crazy, but she makes an excellent point: if you made Christian vows (the way she and her ilk see them) then you cannot break them without damning your soul. You all think she is nuts (and she is), but how is what she said really that out of balance with Christian belief? BTW, leaving an abusive husband (in all cases) is a very modern interpretation of those vows. Unless of course, as I said before, the vows are meaningless, in which care making them to begin with is just a waste of time. My vote is for meaningless vows.

[fluttershies]

I am not demanding obedience with anything. I think living a life of obedience to an invisible sky wizard is the stupidest way to live. I do not give a flying fuck if someone is obedient to God or not. I think wedding vows are completely stupid and make no sense in reality. I personally would never make a wedding vow like the one Christians do. My issue is that there are lots of "Christians" out there who claim to take these vows really seriously, but when it boils down to it, they are just like any other person: they get divorced when it is convenient to them; vows be damned. My point on this board is that those vows clearly have no meaning to them whatsoever. The vast majority of "Christians" do not concern themselves with those vows in the least. That's fine. Fuck it. Ain't my life. My problem is that these same people are hell-bent on telling the rest of us how to live. These same people - who care not a fig for their vows - think they are in the best position to dictate religious morality to the rest of us. Well, I personally will not stand for that. I am going to call these people out on it. Period. Apparently that has made me unpopular here, but I am still going forth with this. I think it is extremely important that these people be called out on their hypocrisy.

Finally, let me make this (again) very, VERY clear: I do not think that a person should for even one minute remain in an abusive relationship no matter what holy vows they made. Heck, I do not think people should remain in a merely unpleasant relationship, even if they vowed to a plethora of sky wizards not to. Also, what two people do in their own marriage is done of my damn business. They can do what they like. I don't care. What I care about is that these same people feel that they are in the best position to tell the rest of us what a SACRED MARRIAGE truly is, when it is clear to me that, not only do they not know what that is, they do not even follow their own personal religious beliefs.

This is why I played devil's advocate with crazy fundie lady. She is crazy, but she makes an excellent point: if you made Christian vows (the way she and her ilk see them) then you cannot break them without damning your soul. You all think she is nuts (and she is), but how is what she said really that out of balance with Christian belief? BTW, leaving an abusive husband (in all cases) is a very modern interpretation of those vows. Unless of course, as I said before, the vows are meaningless, in which care making them to begin with is just a waste of time. My vote is for meaningless vows.

A) Most Christians DO take their marriage vows seriously, as do most people of any religion, and B) for Protestants, marriage is not a sacrament, therefore there is no damning of your soul for breaking it. The idea of your soul being damned for committing one sin isn't one most Christians adhere to anyway. Considering that Jesus Himself gives a reason as to why a couple can divorce and Paul gives another, saying that Christians can't divorce according to their own religion is nonsense. Please educate yourself about something before talking about it.

As for Catholics, it's my understanding that marriages that end legally (as opposed to annulment which says that the marriage never truly happened in the first place - this by the way is how Henry VIII left Katherine of Aragon, he did NOT divorce her!) are still considered to be binding by the Church. So in the Church's eyes, it's the remarriage which is the problem because it's seen as bigamy/adultery.

[currywurst]

A) Most Christians DO take their marriage vows seriously, as do most people of any religion, and B) for Protestants, marriage is not a sacrament, therefore there is no damning of your soul for breaking it. The idea of your soul being damned for committing one sin isn't one most Christians adhere to anyway. Considering that Jesus Himself gives a reason as to why a couple can divorce and Paul gives another, saying that Christians can't divorce according to their own religion is nonsense. Please educate yourself about something before talking about it.

As for Catholics, it's my understanding that marriages that end legally (as opposed to annulment which says that the marriage never truly happened in the first place - this by the way is how Henry VIII left Katherine of Aragon, he did NOT divorce her!) are still considered to be binding by the Church. So in the Church's eyes, it's the remarriage which is the problem because it's seen as bigamy/adultery.

That's cool. I don't give a shit what reasons their religion gives for divorce. I could care the fuck less.

Look, my point is that Christians (whether Catholic or not), at least outwardly pretend that marriage is sacred and important. So sacred, in fact, that they want to stop gay people from getting married, lest in ruin their sacred unities. If they can get divorced and split up for any reason at all, then clearly there is absolutely nothing sacred about their union whatsoever. They might as well just be two people who were living together. That is where the whole vows problem comes in. According to Christian belief, the thing the separates two people merely living together from two "married" people, is that the married people took sacred vows, in public, as god as their witness. Fine. That is their belief and I do not give a flying fudge. That is their own thing. My problem is that these people think they have the moral high ground to tell the rest of us what a "real" marriage is, when, as far as I can tell, most of their marriages are no more real than two people who are merely living together. They get divorced whenever they jolly well feel like it, for whatever reason. Like I said, that's cool. If that is what they want to do, fine. BUT!!!! These people are not in any position to dictate what "marriage" means to the rest of us. That is what I am calling them out on. Please let me be clear: I do not give one single shit who gets divorced or why. That is why I do not feel I can tell other people how to live in that area of their life. First, it is none of my business, and second, I do not have the moral high ground to make that determination. Now, I have admitted that. Why can't the nations "Christians" do the same?