A Case for Slavery

[RR88]

Put a fork in him; he's done! torahphilosophy.com/2012/04/case-for-slavery.htm

[Boogalou]

Your link is broken, I think you left the l off the end. Here is a working one (I hope): http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/04/case-for-slavery.html

Edited to try again, my first link just goes to the front page

Edited again because now I read it. WTF is wrong with people? Slavery is good because it spreads civilisation to primitive people. It's hard to believe anyone actually believes that.

[currywurst]

Well, if this guy is making a case for slavery based upon the teachings of the Torah, and he claims to be Orthodox, then that makes perfect sense! No really. If you claim to be Orthodox and follow the Torah to the letter, and the Torah says that slavery is okay, well then you SHOULD be out there making a case for slavery. In fact, I would argue that those who claim to be Orthodox but are against slavery, are not really following God's law as it is laid out in the Torah.

[Boogalou]

This blog is insane, I am going to have to read more of it. He says that black Americans should be thankful their ancestors were slaves because they have a better life in the US than if they were back in Africa.

And Darwin was the founder of atheism.

And one of the commenters said that the Torah says its moral and he thinks the Torah is moral therefore, the Torah is moral. Hint: if something you think is moral is in favour of slavery it may not me as moral as you think it.

And also this:

Furthermore, if not God but evolution created us, that means we have no souls. If we have no soul, we have no free will. If we have no free will, we have no moral responsibility for our behavior.

How does on make the jump from no soul = no free will? What is wrong with this guy?

I have to get off the computer now before I throw it against the wall. I cannot deal with so much crazy all in one place.

[DarkAnts]

One thing to remember is that biblical slavery was different then american slavery. Biblical slavery was more like indentured servitude. You were a slave for slave period of time because you were destitute and had no other option. There was some permanent slavery but that usually referred to foreign captives. Indentured servants were allowed to choose to be permanent slaves after a period of servitude but it was often discouraged. Indentured servants children were not automatically slaves. Their parents would have to sell them. They would then also be considered indentured servants.

[currywurst]

Actually, slavery back in those times made some sense. It was almost like an employment contract for room and board. So it was better to work as someone's slave and be fed and clothed and have shelter than to starve to death. There is a reason the Bible has "rules" regarding slavery - it was common enough and, in theory, anyone falling on hard times might have to make the choice to become a slave.

[emmiedahl]

I almost commented on the Darwin thing. I have a geeky fascination with him. For the record, atheism existed long before him, and he was a devout Christian and an ordained minister before, during, and after his work on the origin of species. His work did not really deal with where life came from but merely how it became so diverse.

[currywurst]

Are all these fundies aware that they are just making shit up? I mean, do they consciously realize, for example, that the whole Darwin/atheism thing is something they just pulled out of their ass? Like, do they understand that there are no sources to back up that claim? I wonder.

[emmiedahl]

Are all these fundies aware that they are just making shit up? I mean, do they consciously realize, for example, that the whole Darwin/atheism thing is something they just pulled out of their ass? Like, do they understand that there are no sources to back up that claim? I wonder.

I think they just repeat what other people tell them because it matches their world-view and thus feels true. We all do that. I don't ask for justification for a statement I agree with, but I am the first to say I need some references if something seems off.

I read once a fundie blog that Darwin had died a Christian, but they thought this meant that he had some religious awakening and denounced his work in evolution. Which is the strangest turn of logic I have encountered, as someone who quotes Darwin on Valentine's Day cards.

[currywurst]

I guess my issue is that these people act as though they are in the fight of their lives over all these religion stuff, yet they constantly bring arguments which are either out right lies or totally bogus. They make themselves look ridiculous and they always ruin their own credibility.

BTW, I love reading that guy's blog. He stuff about atheism is hilarious. I have not had this much fun being sick in a long time.

[Kitten]

People like the Reverend Jeremiah Wright may be filled with hatred for white Americans, however perhaps they should have a little gratitude also. What type life style do their never enslaved cousins in Africa have? The life expectancy of blacks in America is 73 years, for blacks in Africa it's 46 years.

Obviously, I'm preaching to the choir here, but MAYBE if the men and women hadn't been torn from their homes and shipped halfway across the world to be someone else's property, that ratio would be a little different? How many brilliant leaders and thinkers were lost to menial forced labor? How many societies and communities and social structures were destroyed by the loss of most of their young people? How much wisdom was lost because the elders had no one to teach it to?

We can't know what we lost, but we can know it's lost. If your house burned down today, you might not remember every photograph and letter that burned with it, but you would grieve in the knowledge that you had lost something precious that could never be replaced.

There's a reason we are fascinated by ancient Egypt, ancient China, the Mayans, Stonehenge, and other glimpses of knowledge seemingly far beyond what we "expect" from these societies so far removed from our modern world. What did they know? How did they know it? How and why did they build the pyamids, carve huge pictographs in the desert that can only be seen from outer space, demonstrate advanced knowledge of science, medicine, and astronomy?

We can't change history. The people torn from Africa are now a part of the past. What they knew, what they might have accomplished, what Africa might have been, is gone. But trying to justify the infliction of slavery on Africans by some pathetic and incomplete comparison of the lives of the descendants of slavery to their "free" cousins is just...

:angry-screaming: :angry-fire: :angry-teeth: :angry-cussingblack: :angry-banghead:

[RR88]

You ain't seen nothing yet. Check out the rest of his blog to see what he has to say about gays and women.

[Conuly]

Obviously, I'm preaching to the choir here, but MAYBE if the men and women hadn't been torn from their homes and shipped halfway across the world to be someone else's property, that ratio would be a little different? How many brilliant leaders and thinkers were lost to menial forced labor? How many societies and communities and social structures were destroyed by the loss of most of their young people? How much wisdom was lost because the elders had no one to teach it to?

Moreover, the same people who were stealing people were also steadily robbing the continent of resources.

Africa as a continent isn't poor because the people there are stupid or ignorant. It's not poor because it's particularly lacking in natural resources. It's not poor because they're all violent and want to fight wars all the time. It's not even poor because of malaria and sleeping sickness.

There are problems in Africa because for the past several hundred years the continent has been systematically mismanaged right into the ground by imperialist forces who, incidentally, did everything in their power to keep Africans from being able to join together and kick them out. Which in many cases meant exacerbating pre-existing tensions to their own advantage.

[Anise]

The guy is bogus. He wrote: "The Torah permits slavery ( Leviticus 25:44). On the other hand, Proverbs 3:17 states, in reference to wisdom, “Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.†In that case, how can the Torah, the embodiment of divine wisdom, condone the evil of slavery?"

(and yes, that's as far as I could get in the post)

Did he just imply that Proverbs is Torah? Or that we can measure Torah by the Proverbs? Religious extremism FAIL.

And there there's that post "I :heart: genocide"

This guy has to be on some watch list.

[RR88]

The guy is bogus. He wrote: "The Torah permits slavery ( Leviticus 25:44). On the other hand, Proverbs 3:17 states, in reference to wisdom, “Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.†In that case, how can the Torah, the embodiment of divine wisdom, condone the evil of slavery?"

(and yes, that's as far as I could get in the post)

Did he just imply that Proverbs is Torah? Or that we can measure Torah by the Proverbs? Religious extremism FAIL.

And there there's that post "I :heart: genocide"

This guy has to be on some watch list.

Anise, all of TaNaKh can be colloquially referred to as "Torah". In this case, referring to Proverbs as Torah is actually not incorrect.

[Anise]

Anise, all of TaNaKh can be colloquially referred to as "Torah". In this case, referring to Proverbs as Torah is actually not incorrect.

Ah, okay. Thanks for the correction.

[RR88]

You're welcome! I wasn't trying to be snippy, by the way. If you look into this guy, you'll see he has gotten fired and kicked out of school for the stuff he's said and written. And then it all plays into his persecution complex.

[Anise]

You're welcome! I wasn't trying to be snippy, by the way. If you look into this guy, you'll see he has gotten fired and kicked out of school for the stuff he's said and written. And then it all plays into his persecution complex.

:clap:

I'd hate to think that he has any influence over people.

[RR88]

Good Lord!

torahphilosophy.com/2012/04/i-heart-genocide.html

[emmiedahl]

Holy fuck! What the fuckety fuck is he talking about? There are not enough fucks in the world for this crazy ass post.

[RR88]

I'm telling you...I think he's more "out there" than most of the fundies we snark on.

[MadameX]

I wonder if he's ever taken a gander at the life expectancy of an African in steerage on the Middle Passage.

[Conuly]

I'm telling you...I think he's more "out there" than most of the fundies we snark on.

Gosh, do you?

It's terrifying is what it is. Snarking? I feel like running and hiding! Preferably in another country... or planet.

Maybe we should just hide him on another planet and make this one safe for logic again.

[fakepigtails73]

That crazy person (TP) who writes that blog is a convert.

Goes to show that often the craziest fundies in any religion or cause are the converted, hence the "converter's zeal".

Note that I do not imply that all converts to a faith are zealous freaks like TP, not even most of them...

[ems]

Because of course Africa is a country and all. :roll: I mean perhaps if these are actually valid statistics and not just numbers pulled out of someone's ass, they are taking the life expectancy of blacks inevery country in Africa into account. But then you would have to compare Africa and North America, not "Africa" and the United States of America.

Also, that is one incredibly patronizing and ethnocentric quote.