Fundies, Black /White Thiinking And The Hunger Games

[debrand]

Biblical Beginnings has a review of the book The Hunger Games. On a positive note, his review is better then Raquel's. Considering that the protagonist is a strong, young woman, I was surprised that he overall liked the book. However, he had a criticism that I think that shows a very big problem with black and white thinking.

http://www.biblicalbeginnings.com/2012/ ... games.html

The whole thing is contrived to set your mind into a 'what-if' scenario that makes no real sense. Collins is that kid in school that, when the teacher would list a rule, she would think of every possible way there may be an excuse to break it, if the odds were in her favor just enough. The author seems to want to say that murder may be ok if it is forced and imposed, and this is the way she has found to make it happen. She has gotten away with murder in her post.

I haven't read the book yet but from what I understand, Katniss' family will be killed if she doesn't kill. Fundies have problems with the fact that sometimes you must choose between two bad things. There isn't always an answer that is fair, good or noble.

Correct me on this, but the author isn't justifying murder. She has placed her character in a cruel and unfair world where Katniss must do things that are wrong to protect the people that she loves.

I think that for people with black and white thinking this must be a very difficult concept to understand. You can be a great person, do all the right things and still end up in bad situations.

credenda.brainfog.com/index.php/Reviews/what-did-everdeen-ever-do.html

He is not the only person upset with the 'set up ' in this fictional book. Doug Wilson writes:

In short, when you have the privilege of setting up all the circumstances artificially, in order to give your protagonist no real choice about whether to sin or not, it is a pretty safe bet that a whole lot of people in a relativistic country, including the Christians in it unfortunately, won’t notice

I remember reading some right wing Christian reviews of Harry Potter that weren't outraged about just the magic but the fact that Harry and his friends weren't perfect but did things like lie or sneak around.

Do you think that fiction-or history- that shows people acting in less then perfect ways are threatening to the fundie world view?

[Guest Anonymous]

The whole thing is contrived to set your mind into a 'what-if' scenario that makes no real sense. Collins is that kid in school that, when the teacher would list a rule, she would think of every possible way there may be an excuse to break it, if the odds were in her favor just enough. The author seems to want to say that murder may be ok if it is forced and imposed, and this is the way she has found to make it happen. She has gotten away with murder in her post.

I very much disagree with this conclusion. I drew the exact opposite one from the books - that even though Katniss had every reason to kill other people, even though it was justified by the circumstances she was placed in through no fault of her own, it was still terrible and wrong and not at all okay.

I thought that Suzanne Collins made a very strong statement throughout the books that killing is never a positive thing - not even when it seems necessary, not even when the people in question are assholes.

**Edited to add on/elaborate.

[CanadianHippie]

I think that anything that isn't the fundie worldview will be perceived as threatening to it. That being said, I do know that fiction requires that a conflict be more than just to sin or not to sin. There needs to be serious consequences to each choice so the protagonist feels trapped by the choice or feels forced to make a choice he or she otherwise wouldn't make or required to make a choice they are not wholly uncomfortable with.

Without that you end up with tripe like the Moody books where any "conflict" is easily resolve by doing what one knows is right beyond all reasonable doubt with nothing to make right the choice difficult. Books like The Hunger Games (which I will admit I haven't read so this is entirely conjecture based on what I've heard) are written with the intent, either consciously or not, to make the reader evaluate and re-evaluate the choices of the protagonist and question whether the choice was in fact the right one. It's not the book or the authors fault if people like those quoted aren't willing to question the morality of either choice the protagonist is given.

[dawbs]

Ya know, even FotF's "Adventures in Oddesy" deals with "doing the right thing for the wrong reason" and "doing the wrong thing for the right reason" (don't ask me about episodes, It's just...I remember the discussion in Whit's end because I was bored and they were our road-trip entertainment as we drove through 45 states...)

I can't imagine thinking it's all that simple. Although I think that more than them thinking it's that simple, they wish it was that simple and self-deceive into it being that simple.

(which is why abortion is so black and white, etc)

I remember reading some right wing Christian reviews of Harry Potter that weren't outraged about just the magic but the fact that Harry and his friends weren't perfect but did things like lie or sneak around.

Do you think that fiction-or history- that shows people acting in less then perfect ways are threatening to the fundie world view?

I think that's the ONLY way they can justify the C.S. Lewis worship while condemning J. K. Rowlings.

[spragger]

I also get the vague feeling that there is nothing beyond Panem. That is the world. This fact alone makes it difficult for me to wrap my mind around, but this is not big, because the whole thing is from Katniss' perspective, and it is no wonder with her lifestyle why she would not know of anything beyond her own country.

He seems to have trouble grasping the simple concept of a dystopian society. It's no wonder he cannot glean any deeper meaning from the text.

I also think he needs to read the entire trilogy, because it very much becomes clear that Katniss makes a stand against violence under any circumstances--that you can't justify it, even against the enemy.

I don't get. Aren't these the same people who are pro-war/defend America's freedoms?

[2xx1xy1JD]

I've only read the Hunger Games and not the rest of the trilogy, but I got the opposite impression from the book.

To me, the book was all about moral dilemnas and the warping of moral perspectives. Katniss is playing the game - but it's clear that the very context of the Hunger Games is wrong. Even though

she wins, and manages to save Peeta's life too, she's clearly realizing that 22 other kids were killed.

Moral dilemnas exist. Even where red lines exist, the book talks about what could compel people to go along with something evil, and to think seriously about how they would react in those sort of situations. The Hunger Games is fiction, but the experiences of child soldiers who are forced to kill other kids and their own families is not. Totalitarian regimes also force people to kill by threatening their families. Here's one example of what not killing innocent people could mean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Czerniak%C3%B3w I remember learning that authorities agreed that the usual rule against suicide in Judaism didn't apply in this case, and he's buried in the Jewish cemetery.

[tinuviel]

He seems to have trouble grasping the simple concept of a dystopian society. It's no wonder he cannot glean any deeper meaning from the text.

I also think he needs to read the entire trilogy, because it very much becomes clear that Katniss makes a stand against violence under any circumstances--that you can't justify it, even against the enemy.

I don't get. Aren't these the same people who are pro-war/defend America's freedoms?

Disclaimer: haven't read the Hunger Games yet. But yeah, most of the right wingers I know practically light up with glee when they talk about Texas laws that permit you to kill a person who is trying to steal something irreplaceable from you. (Don't know if this law exists or not. Just know a bunch of fundies who get a hard on about it). They talk about all of their guns, and how they'd shoot to kill if someone invaded their house.

I don't get why they can't understand Katniss' act as something like self-defense. I think the real problem most fundies have with the Hunger Games is that it's popular. Fundies seem to come up with ridiculous reasons to reject pretty much anything not explicitly Christian that wows the mainstream. It makes them more special, you know.

[HijabiLady]

Exactly. I have never understood how the Right wingers (who tend to be conservative Christian) can square their following of an extreme pacifist with their blood lust. War is never, ever pretty and there are so many atrocities committed by both sides. Yet the followers of the man who stated "turn the other cheek" are the first to glorify violence against their fellow man. The psychological dissonance is amazing.

[AudreyE]

Disclaimer: haven't read the Hunger Games yet. But yeah, most of the right wingers I know practically light up with glee when they talk about Texas laws that permit you to kill a person who is trying to steal something irreplaceable from you. (Don't know if this law exists or not. Just know a bunch of fundies who get a hard on about it). They talk about all of their guns, and how they'd shoot to kill if someone invaded their house.

I don't get why they can't understand Katniss' act as something like self-defense. I think the real problem most fundies have with the Hunger Games is that it's popular. Fundies seem to come up with ridiculous reasons to reject pretty much anything not explicitly Christian that wows the mainstream. It makes them more special, you know.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Also, Katniss' actions aren't *like* self-defense; it's kill or be killed. Twenty-four kids go in and one comes out alive.

[daharyn]

To me, the book was all about moral dilemnas and the warping of moral perspectives. Katniss is playing the game - but it's clear that the very context of the Hunger Games is wrong.

Perhaps the reviewer mentioned in the OP needs to see the movie to get it? Having both read the books and seen the new film, I feel like this was really about how living in a dystopia forces the warped moral perspective you're talking about here, and how much strength it takes to withstand the pull. In some ways, I would imagine that to be a rather sympathetic experience for a Christian? I mean, aren't they supposed to be of the world but not fully in it? Or perhaps it is in the world but not fully of it. (Please tell me if I've messed up that bit o' doctrine; it's all rather unclear to me.) Either way, it works, I think--Katniss is trying to negotiate the horrors of her reality while maintaining her own moral values. Really, you'd think there'd be a lot to like here.

[2xx1xy1JD]

In some ways, I don't see how it's even possible to fully teach a commandment like "thou shall not murder" without learning about and exploring extreme scenarios.

It's not hard to follow the rules in a society where the rules are fair and most people follow the rules. There's no moral struggle involved. REAL moral courage kicks in when someone needs to be a moral beacon in a crazy world.

[hyperactress23]

The Mockingjay at the mercy of a man with nothing to lose.

His garbled speech is barely comprehensible. “Give me one reason I shouldn’t shoot you.â€

The rest of the world recedes. There’s only me looking into the wretched eyes of the man from the Nut who asks for one reason. Surely I should be able to come up with thousands. But the words that make it to my lips are “I can’t.â€

Logically, the next thing that should happen is the man pulling the trigger. But he’s perplexed, trying to make sense of my words. I experience my own confusion as I realize what I’ve said is entirely true, and the noble impulse that carried me across the square is replaced by despair. “I can’t. That’s the problem, isn’t it?†I lower my bow. “We blew up your mine. You burned my district to the ground. We’ve got every reason to kill each other. So do it. Make the Capitol happy. I’m done killing their slaves for them.†I drop my bow on the ground and give it a nudge with my boot. It slides across the stone and comes to rest at his knees.

“I’m not their slave,†the man mutters.

“I am,†I say. “That’s why I killed Cato…and he killed Thresh…and he killed Clove…and she tried to kill me. It just goes around and around, and who wins? Not us. Not the districts. Always the Capitol. But I’m tired of being a piece in their Games.â€

Peeta. On the rooftop the night before our first Hunger Games. He understood it all before we’d even set foot in the arena. I hope he’s watching now, that he remembers that night as it happened, and maybe forgives me when I die.

“Keep talking. Tell them about watching the mountain go down,†Haymitch insists. “When I saw that mountain fall tonight, I thought…they’ve done it again. Got me to kill you—the people in the districts. But why did I do it? District Twelve and District Two have no fight except the one the Capitol gave us.†The young man blinks at me uncomprehendingly. I sink on my knees before him, my voice low and urgent. “And why are you fighting with the rebels on the rooftops? With Lyme, who was your victor? With people who were your neighbors, maybe even your family?â€

“I don’t know,†says the man. But he doesn’t take his gun off me.

I rise and turn slowly in a circle, addressing the machine guns. “And you up there? I come from a mining town. Since when do miners condemn other miners to that kind of death, and then stand by to kill whoever manages to crawl from the rubble?â€

“Who is the enemy?†whispers Haymitch.

“These peopleâ€â€”I indicate the wounded bodies on the square—“are not your enemy!†I whip back around to the train station. “The rebels are not your enemy! We all have one enemy, and it’s the Capitol! This is our chance to put an end to their power, but we need every district person to do it!â€

-pages 213 and 214 of (the kindle version of) Mockingjay

They need to read the rest of the series. The first book is very anti-killing, but the rest of the series promotes this even more. She doesn't justify killing. Ever. Katniss is haunted by each and every kill, both awake and in her dreams. And not even her own kills; she's haunted by the kills of everyone who has died because of something even indirectly related to her.

[OohLaLa]

This is dumb. Really dumb. Kind of along the same lines as the morons who ramble about how evil HG is because it "promotes violence" and "children killing children." It doesn't do anything of the sort if you've read it (or watched it) without an intent to find what's evil about it. The huge "what if" isn't contrived at all. It's good writing that begs the question of it's readers: how do you hang on to your humanity when forced into such inhumane circumstances? How do you make the right or ethical decision in the face of seemingly all-powerful evil? The "getting away with murder" comment is just downright offensive and majorly misses the point.

I agree with the posters who mentioned the writer's probable views on war-- that and being pro-death penalty was my first thought as well.

[spragger]

-pages 213 and 214 of (the kindle version of) Mockingjay

They need to read the rest of the series. The first book is very anti-killing, but the rest of the series promotes this even more. She doesn't justify killing. Ever. Katniss is haunted by each and every kill, both awake and in her dreams. And not even her own kills; she's haunted by the kills of everyone who has died because of something even indirectly related to her.

That is the part of the book I thought of also.

[bananacat]

The Hungers Games is a lot less violent than the Bible. The Noah's Ark story is about the death of all humanity and that's marketed to a younger audience than the Hunger Games.

I really like the way Katniss is portrayed as killing people in the Hunger Games. She never directly kills someone violently, except for the person who killed Rue and that was done because she was in immediate danger (and also for revenge). She didn't hunt down the other kids like the careers did. I can't remember how each person died, but I don't think she ever killed anyone else so directly. To me, it showed that she knew what she had to do yet it was still really hard for her to do it. She dropped a wasp nest and let that take its course. She shot the last guy in the hand so he fell over instead of dying. When she did kill him, it was an act of mercy while he was being bitten by the dogs (even she had made him fall to the dogs). There just isn't any case of her killing someone in a cold-blooded way. The story has a really good theme of the dilemma of such a difficult choice. She handled it the best way she could, and IMO she remained more "moral" than the careers (although they were coping with the situation in their own way too).

(This is about the later books and not the movie so don't read if you haven't finished all three books)

Aside from that, I also loved the way the books handled themes like alcoholism and depression without turning into a Very Special Episode or being preachy about it. It showed them both as problems that you can't just shrug off by sheer force of willpower. I rolled my eyes in the second book when Haymitch suddenly became sober, but then I was really glad when he was portrayed as drinking again, showing how complex it really is. And Katniss's mother is portrayed as neglectful for going into a deep depression when her husband died. Katniss is understandably angered by that, but in the third book she goes through the same thing herself and understands what it's like after her sister dies. And the author remained subtle about both things so I wonder how many people never even noticed.

[Confused_by_religion]

Doug Wilson writes:

SOTDRT strikes again, I think.

Literature makes you think and feel with the protagonists and imagine yourself in their shoes - does this guy really believe people who are non-Fundamentalist society are all like "okay, so she kills them, bad luck?", because they read books in an entirely different, godless way? He can't be serious.

Besides, Collins puts a lot of effort in

showing how fucked up the system is and how much it fucks up everybody - most victors are complete wrecks, have nightmares, flashbacks, PTSD! Even in the games, people don't just go with the Capitol's wishes to see ruthless killing machines, there are moments of compassion even in people pitted against each other. What Collins does - and that is exactly what she should do! - is point beyond personal resonsibility - she makes it clear that these people are in terrible situation, that they are personally guilty of killing and that they can't shrug that off, but that ultimately, the government is guilty of putting them in such a situation. If any participant in the Hunger Games has blood on his hand, everybody who has a hand in setting up and running the games and everybody who watches them voluntarily has blood on their hands, too.

[AnnieC 305]

The Hungers Games is a lot less violent than the Bible. The Noah's Ark story is about the death of all humanity and that's marketed to a younger audience than the Hunger Games.

I really like the way Katniss is portrayed as killing people in the Hunger Games. She never directly kills someone violently, except for the person who killed Rue and that was done because she was in immediate danger (and also for revenge). She didn't hunt down the other kids like the careers did. I can't remember how each person died, but I don't think she ever killed anyone else so directly. To me, it showed that she knew what she had to do yet it was still really hard for her to do it. She dropped a wasp nest and let that take its course. She shot the last guy in the hand so he fell over instead of dying. When she did kill him, it was an act of mercy while he was being bitten by the dogs (even she had made him fall to the dogs). There just isn't any case of her killing someone in a cold-blooded way. The story has a really good theme of the dilemma of such a difficult choice. She handled it the best way she could, and IMO she remained more "moral" than the careers (although they were coping with the situation in their own way too).

(Spoiler for the last book)

No, as I recall there is one person she kills deliberately. Coin, in order to prevent her plans and stop the killing once and for all. That's why she said yes, for Prim, so she could be in the position to do so.

(This is about the later books and not the movie so don't read if you haven't finished all three books)

Aside from that, I also loved the way the books handled themes like alcoholism and depression without turning into a Very Special Episode or being preachy about it. It showed them both as problems that you can't just shrug off by sheer force of willpower. I rolled my eyes in the second book when Haymitch suddenly became sober, but then I was really glad when he was portrayed as drinking again, showing how complex it really is. And Katniss's mother is portrayed as neglectful for going into a deep depression when her husband died. Katniss is understandably angered by that, but in the third book she goes through the same thing herself and understands what it's like after her sister dies. And the author remained subtle about both things so I wonder how many people never even noticed.

As I understand it, the author was trying to contrast the reality of war with our fantasy based lifestyle and "reality" TV. Which I think she did admirably by showing that even though they "win", they still have to suffer for the rest of their lives. But I think that's a little too much reality for most "fundies" to handle.

[debrand]

The Hungers Games is a lot less violent than the Bible. The Noah's Ark story is about the death of all humanity and that's marketed to a younger audience than the Hunger Games.

A lot of conservative and fundamentalist Christians don't realize that pregnant women, very young infants and elderly people would have watched the water slowly rise as they tried desperately to save their loved ones. Luckily, that story is not true but in order to believe that those people deserved death, the reader has to engage in the worst type of relativistic thinking.

In the fundamentalist world, the faithful always have a clear choice between right and wrong. They might have to give their lives or better yet, be mocked but they will automaticaly know what is right and wrong. The problem is that choices aren't always so clear cut in life. I don't know if any of you remember the movie, Sophie's Choice. The woman had to choose which of her two children would go to the gas chamber and which would go to work in a labor camp. It was a fictional movie but such choices do happen in real life. Poor people in some countries have to decide which family member will get the best food which is basically deciding who lives and who will probably die. No matter how faithful a Christian that they are, god doesn't swoop down and save them from those situations.

[formergothardite]

He did end up reviewing the whole series and in the last book he thought that Peeta was like Jesus. Also, keep in mind that this is the guy who would personally stone a gay person and is okay with slavery.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Do most of the snark-worthy fundies tend to live in rural areas where nothing ever happens? I'm getting that impression.

After reading the link, this quote popped out for me:

Katniss Everdeen is a 16 year old girl from a totalitarian society set in the future. I will stop right here. There is a huge problem I had with the whole book, that being how ridiculous the governing system was. Basically there is a Capitol 'state-city' in which the ruling class lived.

What does he mean by "ridiculous"? Does he have any real understanding of the fact that totalitarian societies exist, today?

I'm realizing that many of my issues with these sort of fundies are not just religious - they are also cultural, and reflect a very different history and family background. In my universe, there was no family farm with a patriarch, far from the conflicts of the world. [Actually, my great-grandfather DID own a family farm - but it hosted tons of Holocaust survivors every summer.] Instead, it was a constant stream of Czarist oppression, stories from the Holocaust, and issues with Communism. They didn't tell stories of the "good ole days". It was more "they tried to kill us, so we left". Maybe some fundie kids think that The Hunger Games are far-fetched, but on Saturday I was sitting next to a friend's mother, who lived through "Defiance" - literally living in the forest at the age of 6 after the rest of her family was killed with a group of Partisans, who faced moral dilemnas and struggles every day.