Married at 12

[2xx1xy1JD]

We have a term for men like that: pedophiles. I know they're your brothers-in-law, but I see no reason to sugarcoat it. That is horrifying.

Where did this take place?

Who are "they all" - the brothers, or their wives? Did the wives know of any alternatives in life?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Chaotic life hit the nail on the head - she is GROOMING her kids for abuse, whether she recognizes that or not.

I don't think that she's gotten to the point of acknowledging that the good stuff that she remembers from her past wasn't good at all - that it was "grooming" her for the sexual abuse.

[Witsec7]

I glanced at that blog once, I think, but haven't read it since then. Could she be talking about that Lev Tahor community up in Canada? Though if she was really there, how would she be online in the first place? And while I've heard some pretty horrible stuff coming out of Lev Tahor, I don't recall marriage at twelve or thirteen being part of it (though maybe that just hasn't gotten out?). Based on what I'm reading here, I hope it's all fake. Ugh.

No I think she is in Chabad Colonie, NY she may have been raised in a Lev Tahor community in NY before they went to Canada. Not that Chabad Colonie is better than what Helbrans has going on in Canada.

[RR88]

Chaotic life hit the nail on the head - she is GROOMING her kids for abuse, whether she recognizes that or not.

I don't think that she's gotten to the point of acknowledging that the good stuff that she remembers from her past wasn't good at all - that it was "grooming" her for the sexual abuse.

She is oppressing her children.

[sassyNoz47]

Where did this take place?

Who are "they all" - the brothers, or their wives? Did the wives know of any alternatives in life?

I agree , the wifes were 2 sister they attended the same church as the men from childhood on up. I married my dh in 89 I was NOT apart of the church "cult". I did meet my husband when my church had a area singing night and several churches attended. My dh's church was ran by his grandmother..I mean she controlled EVERYTHING that anyone did. I didn't know how bad it was until I married into it. Anyway dh older brother had been married almost 5 yrs to his wife, I then found out she wasn't even my age yet I was 19 she would be in a couple months so..I did the math. All the sudden while we were dating one of his other brother starts dating the sister of the 18 yr old. She had JUST turned 14..later I found out that she had been living with him since she was 12 but they all insisted it was innocent they were soon engaged and married 2 months after we did.

The mother of the girls was also a church member she signed something making it legal for her daughters to marry so young. They also have another brother who is the oldest and 10 yrs older then my dh he married a woman when he was 20 and she was 40ish already had kids.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I only just looked at the linked post now, but found it weird that she uses the term "Lord." I know she's supposedly not raised in regular Judaism but it sounds weird to me.

Of course, it could just be me...

[emmiedahl]

A lot of what she writes about does not sound like Judaism to me. I understand that she was raised outside normative Judaism, but so was I and I still was culturally Jewish. The headcovering in girls reaching puberty, for example, and the openness about niddah and other private things strikes me as coming from someone who is not Jewish. She talks quite openly about what she has taught her son's fiancee and makes a big deal of the kallah's virginity. It all feels non-Jewish to me, like it is written by someone outside the faith. FWIW.

[MrsKay]

We have a term for men like that: pedophiles. I know they're your brothers-in-law, but I see no reason to sugarcoat it. That is horrifying.

Yeah, that.

I can believe this blog is real, although it's horrifying. GirlKay is almost 15, and her absolute limit of age difference is 2 years (she can date someone who is 16, at the moment, if she chose to, in supervised conditions). I can't even imagine virtually offering up my CHILD to be some sick man's play toy and slave. Sickening.

[Dinorah]

Her posts about submission and modesty are odd, especially considering she has links to No Longer Quivering and Katherine Joyce.

[apple1]

I agree , the wifes were 2 sister they attended the same church as the men from childhood on up. I married my dh in 89 I was NOT apart of the church "cult". I did meet my husband when my church had a area singing night and several churches attended. My dh's church was ran by his grandmother..I mean she controlled EVERYTHING that anyone did. I didn't know how bad it was until I married into it. Anyway dh older brother had been married almost 5 yrs to his wife, I then found out she wasn't even my age yet I was 19 she would be in a couple months so..I did the math. All the sudden while we were dating one of his other brother starts dating the sister of the 18 yr old. She had JUST turned 14..later I found out that she had been living with him since she was 12 but they all insisted it was innocent they were soon engaged and married 2 months after we did.

The mother of the girls was also a church member she signed something making it legal for her daughters to marry so young. They also have another brother who is the oldest and 10 yrs older then my dh he married a woman when he was 20 and she was 40ish already had kids.

What state is this in? I cannot imagine that this is legal in most US states, even with parental consent. And yeah, it is pedophilia. Who do these pedophiles victimize next, once the "wives" are no longer children?

[2xx1xy1JD]

A lot of what she writes about does not sound like Judaism to me. I understand that she was raised outside normative Judaism, but so was I and I still was culturally Jewish. The headcovering in girls reaching puberty, for example, and the openness about niddah and other private things strikes me as coming from someone who is not Jewish. She talks quite openly about what she has taught her son's fiancee and makes a big deal of the kallah's virginity. It all feels non-Jewish to me, like it is written by someone outside the faith. FWIW.

I had that feeling too, but after reading through the blog again, it's quite clear that she was raised in a cult, completely apart from the rest of the Jewish community - that's quite different from just being raised in a more secular home.

She then seems to have left that, and joined a more regular ultra-Orthodox community which was strict but which followed actual Jewish teachings. At first, she was happy to learn about real Judaism and see where her father's cult had twisted things, but somehow she and her husband were completely resistant to abandoning the teachings on submission, although they were a bit less extreme than the cult teachings. The kids noticed the differences. Then, she found a new community (likely Lev Tahor), and suddenly felt "normal" again. According to what I've read, including the Ha'aretz article, Lev Tahor is a fringe group led by a charismatic "rabbi", which engages in some extreme practices which are not part of normative Judaism. These include hair coverings for young girls, hyper-extreme modesty and extremely young marriages. The rest of the ultra-Orthodox world is screaming that they are a cult, and there have been allegations of physical violence, such as using "lashes" as punishment.

[Abi]

I study religion at uni and am making some final alterations to my dissertation on the religious oppression of women.

I'm no expert, but I've been doing a fair bit of studying recently, so this blog was especially interesting to me.

This woman says she came from a religiously oppressive background, yet the life she is living now seems oppressive too.

I can accept when women make a personal decision to dress modestly etc., but she is imposing this on her children, and has actually stated in her blog that she has felt angry at some of her husbands recent comments on modesty and women.

She states that she was brought up in a community that oppressed women (along with the sexual abuse, which is obviously another issue) yet she is wholeheartedly subscribing to patriarchy and submission of women to their husbands.

Her whole blog just leaves me feeling confused, angry, but mostly sad.

[Mama Mia]

In reading the blog I'm not surprised that she is an adherent to submission and obedience to her husband. He is the one who initially questioned and rebelled against the teachings of the abusive cult her father led. He is the one who led her out of there into a different life, and she was initially resistant.

She also saw her marriage to him , when they were both incredibly young, as her deliverance from abuse by her family. Because her marriage has turned out so well, and he has made decisions that she thinks have improved their lives it makes sense that she isn't against wives submitting, or young marriage.

It is strange she has so much emphasis on incest and emotional incest in her blog links, but still doesn't get how she is setting her sons and daughters up for abusive situations by having her daughters "serve" and obey her sons.

[emmiedahl]

Someone commented on one of her posts that if she wants a Jewish wife for her sons, she should not get them used to being deferred to. I completely agree. The Orthodox women I know are badasses, don't let the long skirt fool you.

[Defrauding Errday]

This blog is interesting. It looks like she went from a mega-fundie cult to just plain fundie.

[Dinorah]

Someone commented on one of her posts that if she wants a Jewish wife for her sons, she should not get them used to being deferred to. I completely agree. The Orthodox women I know are badasses, don't let the long skirt fool you.

Right. I never got how people like Anna T or the fake Jews could reconcile Orthodoxy with the idea of female submission and male headship.

Anyway, I've checked out Lev Tahor and the women's outfits look more like Iranian women than Ortodox Jews, no matter how extreme.

[nomi]

From what I've gleaned from her blog about her experiences with her religious upbringing she probably thinks what she's doing is a million times better. Yes, she is still in a cult mindset, but to her she's probably justifying it because of the absence of sexual abuse and incest.

I have hang ups from my religious upbringing and it was absolutely nothing compared to what she experienced so I can only begin to imagine how she feels. Her most recent post about how she was able to have sex without a complete breakdown made me feel so sad. What kind of life is she living? She's obviously submissive to her husband and it seems like he was sexually abusive to her at least in the first 7 years of their marriage. How can someone move into a normal healthy sexual relationship with their abuser?

I can't blame this woman for anything. She's a survivor and from the looks of it she's not doing such a great job at surviving.

[2xx1xy1JD]

She reminds me of pro-spanking folks who argue that whatever they do is nothing like the real beatings they got growing up, if as that makes it ok.

Better than hideously abusive does not = good.

[chiccy]

I've also wondered if the blog is real or not.

She's not describing any community that I've ever heard of. She seems to be based in the US, not Israel, but I can't think of any place that meets her description. It doesn't even fit the pattern of strict, insular communities like Kiryas Yoel - they don't do hair coverings for unmarried girls, for example. Getting some details right but not others leads me to wonder if it's a troll, and if the break was to gather more information and a cover story. It also doesn't make any sense to me that someone would undergo extreme abuse and incest, but then be so gung-ho about submission for her daughters, even to their brothers, especially when it's not supported by anything in Judaism.

I hope my suspicion is right, because it would otherwise be a helluva sick story.

I'm researching this cult and trying to find out whether it exists. It seems strange that she would use an avatar that seems to represent the cult (what with veiled faces and all).

She does say it was a very small cult, with only several families in it, all living on a farm. It seems possible. Her father, "Rav Abba," was supposedly the spiritual leader. I googled Rav Abba and have not been able to find much other than her story.

I agree that how she is raising her children is outrageous (covering the girls' hair; expecting sisters to submit to their brothers). I am surprised that there is a real Orthodox rabbi involved in her current community; she does mention a 'rabbi', but it doesn't sound like anything mainstream. She seems very out of touch with mainstream Judaism. I don't know how likely it is that she's born Jewish, either.

Anyone know anything more about the cult?

ETA: Experienced, I didn't totally understand your post, but it doesn't seem like the cult she was raised in was Chabad Colonie. It seems like in Chabad Colonie the sexual abuse was hidden within a theoretically mainstream Chasidic community, whereas the place Dina grew up in was far from mainstream, and the sexual abuse was overt and part of their doctrine. It does sound like she might be in Lev Tahor now.

Edited again: It's possible that she's not in Lev Tahor now because she mentioned having to veil her face as part of the previous cult, implying a distinction with her current community. On one hand, if she is in Lev Tahor now it would explain her avatar; on the other hand, this would perhaps be a weird thing for her to say if she WERE currently in Lev Tahor:

Having grown up wearing hair coverings from the time I was a toddler, and having even been forced to wear a face veil at times, I have mixed feelings about all of it.

[chiccy]

This quote from an article posted on Failedmessiah is very telling, and suggests that a lot of people with backgrounds like Dina's are drawn to Lev Tahor:

Over the years, Lev Tahor’s location at the extreme fringes of the Haredi world has attracted all kinds of seekers and fringe types to its ranks. This is also one of the important elements that make up the community. Helbrans categorizes those who join Lev Tahor in two groups: “There are people who come because they seek the truth. They’ve heard about the community and they know it is the only place where they can live in the way that is right for them. And then there are people who come because they are terribly miserable and no one else is ready to help them. Only here in this community will they receive attention, warmth, love, patience and brotherhood. Sometimes they change, they get onto the right path and integrate in our way of life. We have many such success stories. But sometimes they don’t succeed.â€

With surprising openness, some of the Hasidim in Canada told me about their difficult childhoods in broken families. One related that his Haredi father had been sentenced to 30 years in prison in America for raping his daughter. Ever since the trial, the family was torn apart. The mother “lost it,†the sister left the Haredi world. Another Hasid said he was sexually abused as a child. Another was kicked out of every school and institution he’d ever been in. He came to Lev Tahor when he was 18, and his friends recount that he couldn’t even read and write.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Honestly, I consider her a bad person. She left a cult and is now part of another one, indoctrinating her kids.

I have a hard time with labeling her as a bad person. I'm not going to sit there and say she's right for what she's doing, but she might not realize what she's doing. As others said previously, she seems to only just be scratching the surface when it comes to how bad things were for her. And, she might not see this behavior as bad. She sees the abusive physical and sexual abuse as wrong, but she doesn't necessarily know or understand the emotional/mental abuses she has been subjected to and is, in turn, subjecting her children to.

[Cats Pajamas]

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet. Reading between the lines, it sounds to me that her husband likely molested their daughters before they left the original cult. It appears that all the males were taught to discipline females sexually and she even wrote near the bottom of this post ( marriedat12.blogspot.ca/2011/03/life-today.html ) that her older two girls (ages 4 and 6 when they left, by my calculations) were in therapy for the sexual abuse they sustained. I can only wonder what effect that abuse has on the girls combined with all this yammering about the importance of modesty so as not to distract the men from their religious studies, particularly if they WERE molested by their father since he's the one insisting on the modesty as well as submission. Also, in this post ( marriedat12.blogspot.ca/2011/03/anger-inside-me.html) she's angry at the outside world for not noticing that she and her sisters were being sexually abused. If her husband did in fact molest their daughters, I wonder what she'd think if CPS investigated their family now?

What do you all think?

(Also, sorry for bringing a thread up from the second page- I don't know if that's frowned upon here. After lurking for months, I finally registered yesterday in large part so I could comment on this thread and my account was not approved until today)

[Witsec7]

So much of what Dina writes about her daughters sounds like she is grooming them for further abuse. I really don't think she is getting any competent secular therapy. If she is truly living the insular life she claims to be living, I think its unlikely they would approve of secular therapy.

[RR88]

If her husband did molest her daughters - and she also is against sexual abuse - why does she worship her husband? And I agree with experiencedd. Dina is promoting and abetting abuse.

[mstee]

I read those same entries, Cats Pajamas. I took it as her father, Rev Abba, had molested her kids- his grandkids. Although it wouldn't be surprising if her husband had. I know she also mentioned her neighbors had molested her, so maybe everyone in that small community was taught it was okay. Maybe her husband was brought up the same way.

No matter who did it to her daughters, I feel bad for them. I agree with everyone who has said she is practically grooming them to be perfect victims.