Female Feticide on the Rise in Ontario, Canada.

[alysee]

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/116 ... tario?bn=1

This is quite interesting. I don't think they have really studied enough to say for sure though.

[browngrl]

I agree - there needs to be more study but anecdotally I will say: I am of east Indian origin. Over the years, several of my relatives have asked me to do an ultrasound to determine sex - with the plan to abort if the baby was a girl. In each case I have refused to participate in this. Although I am prochoice, female feticide strikes me as wrong (which I guess is contradictory but there you go). This has cause a fair bit of friction with extended family - to the point where I have had to ask my father(sometimes - you have to use the patriarch) to issue a family wide edict advising extended family of my position on this matter. Interestingly - in several of the families had one or more girls before they got their precious son. The boy was treated like a king and the girls had to work hard to get any attention in those families. The girls have all ended up as high achievers - in various fields and the boys have all "failed to launch". It is so striking a trend that several of the people who had asked me to determine sex - now say that in retrospect they regret that decision. So I am hopeful for the future.

edited for clarification: I do obstetric ultrasound for a living - that is why relatives asked me to do an ultrasound - I am childless myself.

[constantgardener]

When I was pregnant with my kids (now aged 5 and 7) I was not given the option at my local hospital of finding out if I was having a boy or girl. Although they have now changed and do offer this scan, at the time it was local gossip that the reason for this was because Asian families were requesting abortions if they found out they were having a girl. There is a large Pakistani population in my nearest city. This was only hearsay but it seems to tie in with these findings.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I agree - there needs to be more study but anecdotally I will say: I am of east Indian origin. Over the years, several of my relatives have asked me to do an ultrasound to determine sex - with the plan to abort if the baby was a girl. In each case I have refused to participate in this. Although I am prochoice, female feticide strikes me as wrong (which I guess is contradictory but there you go). This has cause a fair bit of friction with extended family - to the point where I have had to ask my father(sometimes - you have to use the patriarch) to issue a family wide edict advising extended family of my position on this matter. Interestingly - in several of the families had one or more girls before they got their precious son. The boy was treated like a king and the girls had to work hard to get any attention in those families. The girls have all ended up as high achievers - in various fields and the boys have all "failed to launch". It is so striking a trend that several of the people who had asked me to determine sex - now say that in retrospect they regret that decision. So I am hopeful for the future.

There is nothing contradictory about it, in my view.

You are pro-choice. The choice belongs to the pregnant woman, period, since it is her body

.

If you are pregnant and want to have a baby, then having other family members try to get you to undergo testing and possibly terminate is an extreme violation - you were being coerced into undergoing an unwanted medical procedure, and suggesting that you terminate a wanted pregnancy, for reasons that are completely sexist and obnoxious and have absolutely NOTHING to do with your views and preferences or desire to have control over your own body.

[rollmeover]

But if a woman WANTED to kill her fetus because it was female, that would be ok? My sister works in a hospital in an area with a high percentage of women of Pakistani origin, and the desire to abort a female fetus is not always forced upon them; for many it is a cultural issue which they feel is normal and acceptable and she says she has been told it is more merciful than waiting until after birth which was frequently done, and I guess in some cases possibly still is. I think it should be illegal to discriminate on gender unless it is for a legitimate reason - ie some medical conditions that are only transmitted in one sex or the other. Although if it is illegal to abort a fetus because it is female, how I can advocate aborting it because it would be disabled is beyond me. It is just so triggery for me that a fetus would die just because she was female, and I can imagine that a disabled person would find it as triggery to know that a fetus with their condition would be considered fair game.

[2xx1xy1JD]

But if a woman WANTED to kill her fetus because it was female, that would be ok? My sister works in a hospital in an area with a high percentage of women of Pakistani origin, and the desire to abort a female fetus is not always forced upon them; for many it is a cultural issue which they feel is normal and acceptable and she says she has been told it is more merciful than waiting until after birth which was frequently done, and I guess in some cases possibly still is. I think it should be illegal to discriminate on gender unless it is for a legitimate reason - ie some medical conditions that are only transmitted in one sex or the other. Although if it is illegal to abort a fetus because it is female, how I can advocate aborting it because it would be disabled is beyond me. It is just so triggery for me that a fetus would die just because she was female, and I can imagine that a disabled person would find it as triggery to know that a fetus with their condition would be considered fair game.

My POV is that pregnant women, in general, should be supported in dealing with issues that may cause them to seek abortion. For example - if lack of job protection is an issue, make sure that employers can't engage in pregnancy discrimination. If lack of finances are an issue, see if support can be provided.

So, in this case, I think that beliefs about women can be challenged and addressed, without necessarily impacting abortion rights. It may be a question of outreach to the women in the community, via doctors, prenatal classes, community workshops, posters, public schools, colleges, etc.

[valsa]

But if a woman WANTED to kill her fetus because it was female, that would be ok?

As personally distasteful as I would find it to know a fetus was aborted due to gender- yes. Being pro-choice doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on what is an acceptable or unacceptable reason for wanting an abortion, just that I can't legislate what I think is an acceptable or unacceptable reason. Granted, I wouldn't assist a couple wanting to abort due to gender (unless they had no other options), but I wouldn't want to take that choice away from them either.

[constantgardener]

As personally distasteful as I would find it to know a fetus was aborted due to gender- yes. Being pro-choice doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on what is an acceptable or unacceptable reason for wanting an abortion, just that I can't legislate what I think is an acceptable or unacceptable reason. Granted, I wouldn't assist a couple wanting to abort due to gender (unless they had no other options), but I wouldn't want to take that choice away from them either.

This. Because if you legally give women the right to choose to abort, you cannot then start putting caveats on that right. If you say you can't abort due to gender, whether or not this is something you agree with, then you are heading back down the road to botched backstreet abortions or possible infanticide.

[emmiedahl]

Being pro-choice does not mean you approve of every possible motivation.

If I allow people to make their own health decisions, they will sometimes make ones I don't agree with. They will handle situations in a way that I would not. Women know what they can handle and it is entirely possible that they cannot handle having a girl at this point. It's hard to wrap my mind around. I still don't believe I have the right to make decisions for another person's body.

[deelaem]

This problem can't be legislated away. It stems from our deeply patriarchal society, which flourishes out in the open more in some cultures. As long as males are the dominant class, atrocities such as these will continue.

[fluttershies]

This problem can't be legislated away. It stems from our deeply patriarchal society, which flourishes out in the open more in some cultures. As long as males are the dominant class, atrocities such as these will continue.

QFT

There seems to be a whiff of 'blame the ebil Muslims' about this, which isn't the case - female feticide/infanticide happens in non-Muslim societies too. It will happen whenever girls are not valued, so the solution is to educate these communities about the importance of women's welfare. Getting a moderate imam or other Muslim elder on board would be a good idea, since the Qu'ran surely must have verses about respecting women? Mohammed (pbuh) respected women so it would make sense.

[FlorenceHamilton]

Intuitively, this study seems to point to a probable real phenomenon. The known cultural patterns of these immigrants point to a probable reality. That said, we need to not knee jerk a solution. On the short term, as repugnant as it may be to many of us, aborting female feti may actually be the more merciful act than bringing them into a family that will never value them or may even be abusive to them. On the long term, the better and long term solution would seem to be raising the value of female humans in the eyes of these people. The babies born to these immigrant mother are born Canadian. Canadians owe it to all of their citizens, first generation and older generations, the opportunity to be valued fr the human beings and citizens that they are.

[2xx1xy1JD]

QFT

There seems to be a whiff of 'blame the ebil Muslims' about this, which isn't the case - female feticide/infanticide happens in non-Muslim societies too. It will happen whenever girls are not valued, so the solution is to educate these communities about the importance of women's welfare. Getting a moderate imam or other Muslim elder on board would be a good idea, since the Qu'ran surely must have verses about respecting women? Mohammed (pbuh) respected women so it would make sense.

Did you seriously get an anti-Muslim vibe from the Toronto Star article? I didn't. In fact, I noticed this quote:

Interestingly, male-to-female ratios remained largely the same for mothers from Pakistan — neighbouring country to India — as they had second and third children. The study notes that this could be because abortion is religiously prohibited in Pakistan, which is a largely Muslim country.

South Korea is not a Muslim country. India has a large Muslim minority, but is predominantly Hindu.

[HijabiLady]

QFT

There seems to be a whiff of 'blame the ebil Muslims' about this, which isn't the case - female feticide/infanticide happens in non-Muslim societies too. It will happen whenever girls are not valued, so the solution is to educate these communities about the importance of women's welfare. Getting a moderate imam or other Muslim elder on board would be a good idea, since the Qu'ran surely must have verses about respecting women? Mohammed (pbuh) respected women so it would make sense.

There are verses in the Qur'an specifically addressing the horrible sin of killing a a child simply because she is a girl. Prophet Mohammed's only living children were female and he was very close to them, particularly his daughter Fatima.

[bananacat]

I think it should be perfectly legal for a woman to have an abortion because of gender. Sexism sucks, but forcing an unwanted child onto a woman won't make her, her husband, or her society less sexist. Forbidding women from having sex-selective abortions doesn't achieve anything except to put more girls in families that hate and resent them simply for existing. I don't understand why people keep insisting that it's a good idea to stop this practice by law. Do you think that the family will have this daughter they didn't want and then suddenly stop being sexist because of it? Or is it more likely that they will neglect and abuse her?

[fluttershies]

Did you seriously get an anti-Muslim vibe from the Toronto Star article? I didn't. In fact, I noticed this quote:

South Korea is not a Muslim country. India has a large Muslim minority, but is predominantly Hindu.

Not from the article, sorry, from discussions on female feticide/infanticide in general. I don't think the article is racist, but there is certainly racism in discussions on the subject.

[Conuly]

But if a woman WANTED to kill her fetus because it was female, that would be ok?

That's what choice means. No matter how stupid I might think the choice is, even if it's something truly trivial like "I'm worried he'll have blue eyes, and I only want brown-eyed kids" (I'm making this up, obviously, as an option!), it's the woman's choice. The only people whose opinions should even matter in that choice are those people whose opinions she's asked for. If this is really a dealbreaker for the potential parent, well, all the better not to bring that kid into the world then. And choosing not to have a female child in a severely patriarchal system isn't foolish or silly choice at all.

(And that goes both ways. I might disagree with your choice to have kids, but I'm not going to drug you and drag you into PP!)

Now, I feel it's a shame that reproductive choices aren't being made freely. I think it's good to reduce the factors that cause people who don't want to abort to feel like they MUST have an abortion (or the other way around). But just campaigning against certain types of abortion, aside from being abhorrent, is treating the symptom instead of the disease. The problem in this case is a system that devalues half the population and makes it financially unwise to have girls instead of boys if you can avoid it.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Not from the article, sorry, from discussions on female feticide/infanticide in general. I don't think the article is racist, but there is certainly racism in discussions on the subject.

Which discussions? Ignorant anonymous posters on the internet, or public policy discussions?

From what I've seen, most discussions about gender imbalances due to selective abortion, infanticide or differential treatment of boys and girls focus on China and India - neither of which are predominantly Muslim countries. I don't think it's racist to point out a phenomenon which objectively exists, as long as it is being reportedly accurately.

[SpeakNow]

Would I personally be okay with that? No.

Is it my body or my choice? No.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There are also public policy choices outside of "do nothing" or "ban some abortions".

You can have Toronto public health put up prominent posters, in a variety of languages, with the tagline "My baby girl is precious" and giving a website and phone number for information and support. Have the poster on subways, in community centers, in hospitals and in OB offices.

Raise the issue of gender preference in prenatal classes.

Provide resources to family doctors and OBs, so that they are aware of the issue and have the resources to address it (such as a hotline to an East Asian or South Asian women's centre).

Discuss the issue in high schools.

Discuss the issue on campus.

If a patient who had previously been happy about the pregnancy suddenly requests a 2nd trimester abortion after her 18 week ultrasound, which read as healthy, that's a red flag. Just as OBs should be aware of signs of domestic abuse, they should be aware of signs that a woman is being pressured into an abortion (which IMHO is a form of domestic violence). It's an opportunity to ask questions, have a discussion and provide information on counselling and resources.

Have legal clinics give specific free sessions on this issue, making women aware of all of their options.

[Minerva]

The anti-choice group at my university put posters up all over campus about this. They were careful to make it coincide with International Women's day, because they're assholes. And off course, they exaggerated the data by a lot because they're soooo honest (btw it's not "on the rise" - they can't know that with their data set).

I find it very problematic that people, especially pro-choice people, treat female feticide as if it were way more horrible than other acts of sexism. Rape happens every day here in Ontario. Every Dec 6th, I sit through a ceremony in memory of the women who were murdered, almost always by their partner or their kidnapper, in the previous year in my area, and the ceremony is interminable because there are always tons of them. There are probably hundreds of girls here who are forced to live the same life the Duggar girls live.

Does it suck that gender essentialism is still a thing and makes people care what sex their kid is going to be? Yes. Does it suck that girls are seen so badly that some people would actively choose not to have one? Yes. Does it cause societal problems when the male/female ratio isn't 1:1 in a society? Yes. But female feticide is not on par with the oppression being perpetuated against actual women and girls.

I'm not against aborting any first or second trimester fetus. That is a morally neutral act in my opinion. It can be done for sexist reasons however. Just as I can dress my hypothetical daughter in pink because that's what I happened to pull out of the drawer first, or I can dress her in pink because I think pink is fitting for a little girl - the act is morally neutral but my reasons for doing it may not be.

I'm no more offended by female feticide than I would be by someone who modified their diet and sex positions because they believed it would prevent them from having girls. Which isn't to say I'm not offended by it - I am, but it's not something we need to focus on more than, say, stopping our dipshit Prime Minister from abolishing the long gun registry. And it's certainly not something we need to limit women's reproductive rights over. That would definitely be a greater evil in my opinion.

ETA punctuation and clarity.

[QAF_Rocks]

There's a really fascinating book about all this:

http://www.amazon.com/Unnatural-Selection-Choosing-Girls-Consequences/dp/1586488503

I read it a few months ago and would definitely recommend it to anyone interested in the subject.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The anti-choice group at my university put posters up all over campus about this. They were careful to make it coincide with International Women's day, because they're assholes. And off course, they exaggerated the data by a lot because they're soooo honest (btw it's not "on the rise" - they can't know that with their data set).

I find it very problematic that people, especially pro-choice people, treat female feticide as if it were way more horrible than other acts of sexism. Rape happens every day here in Ontario. Every Dec 6th, I sit through a ceremony in memory of the women who were murdered, almost always by their partner or their kidnapper, in the previous year in my area, and the ceremony is interminable because there are always tons of them. There are probably hundreds of girls here who are forced to live the same life the Duggar girls live.

Does it suck that gender essentialism is still a thing and makes people care what sex their kid is going to be? Yes. Does it suck that girls are seen so badly that some people would actively choose not to have one? Yes. Does it cause societal problems when the male/female ratio isn't 1:1 in a society? Yes. But female feticide is not on par with the oppression being perpetuated against actual women and girls.

I'm not against aborting any first or second trimester fetus. That is a morally neutral act in my opinion. It can be done for sexist reasons however. Just as I can dress my hypothetical daughter in pink because that's what I happened to pull out of the drawer first, or I can dress her in pink because I think pink is fitting for a little girl - the act is morally neutral but my reasons for doing it may not be.

I'm no more offended by female feticide than I would be by someone who modified their diet and sex positions because they believed it would prevent them from having girls. Which isn't to say I'm not offended by it - I am, but it's not something we need to focus on more than, say, stopping our dipshit Prime Minister from abolishing the long gun registry. And it's certainly not something we need to limit women's reproductive rights over. That would definitely be a greater evil in my opinion.

ETA punctuation and clarity.

I'd argue that it's part and parcel of the same sexist oppression.

If actual pregnant women are being coerced into unwanted medical procedures and abortions - that's real oppression and violence against women.

If extreme gender preference means that girls are more likely to be killed at birth, or abandoned, or deprived of food and other resources - well, that's real violence and oppression.

[fundyfunland]

I'd argue that it's part and parcel of the same sexist oppression.

If actual pregnant women are being coerced into unwanted medical procedures and abortions - that's real oppression and violence against women.

If extreme gender preference means that girls are more likely to be killed at birth, or abandoned, or deprived of food and other resources - well, that's real violence and oppression.

+1 for this.

It is a very sticky situation that I've thought about quite a bit recently. I'm completely against someone aborting a fetus based due to it being a female. But at the same time, I'm 100% pro-choice, so I'm a little confused as to where I stand on this issue. Women should always have the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, however, I think in this case it would be prudent to ensure that the women is counselled prior to making a decision on whether or not to abort.

This issue (based on the Toronto Start article) was just front-line news on CBC tonight. They mentioned (and I really need to look this up) that the practice is illegal in Canada, or maybe I heard it wrong.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It's illegal in India (but done anyway). It's not illegal in Canada, although there is a proposal from the Canadian Medical Association to prevent women from being told the gender during prenatal ultrasounds.

To repeat, I'm pro-choice. I'm just questioning how much "choice" is involved when a woman who otherwise wants a baby requests a termination in the second trimester for a healthy fetus. By the time that the gender is obvious on an ultrasound, the pregnancy would be advanced to the point that the woman would be visibly pregnant, and possibly feeling kicks. Physically and emotionally, it's much harder than a first trimester abortion. To be coerced into it would be a hideous experience.