Assuming the worst of humanity

[Peas n carrots]

Maybe this had been brought up for discussion before, but I haven't seen it here recently.

Recently I was on a flight to Dallas and sitting next to a man who was very Texan, and he was trying to scare the liberal girl from the city by telling me about why people like him carry guns. He was telling me how his wife, despite living in a gated community took a walk every morning with their German Shepard and packing heat in her Fannie pack. Here I am, running at 5 am most mornings of the week when there was a man murdered in a drive by one block away at 2 pm in a Thursday, and my only protection is the hope at I'm faster than whoever would possibly come after me. I'm not devil may care...I don't listen to an iPod and I stick to the well traveled streets, but I thought at his wife was overdoing it.

So this got me thinking....from my perspective, new conservatism basically assumes the worst of your fellow human beings. For example, conservatives such as Rush Linbaugh assume that women want birth control so they can screw as many men as possible. Or assume at poor people want welfare just so they can sit on their ass all day and smoke.

or assume that all illegal immigrants are here because they are inherently criminal.

I'm not saying that people do take advantage of certain people or programs, but there seems to be a general assumption that the "other" is trying to pull a fast one on them. It seems like such a negative, paranoid view of life and the world around you. What are your thoughts, fellow FJ'ers?

[fundiefan]

Fear is exactly what has been driving the right on an extreme level since 9/11. Take the Tea Party - their foundation is built with fear, hate, terror and insecurities.

Make people terrified to live and then swoop in and 'rescue' them with your politics. Unfortunately, it has worked throughout history.

Fear is a powerful motivator. Unfortunately, people are unable to always tell that they are being manipulated into fear and it's not a natural reaction.

[Swamptribe]

Honestly, it seems that many conservatives seem to enjoy living in fear and paranoia.

[Peas n carrots]

Fear is exactly what has been driving the right on an extreme level since 9/11. Take the Tea Party - their foundation is built with fear, hate, terror and insecurities.

Make people terrified to live and then swoop in and 'rescue' them with your politics. Unfortunately, it has worked throughout history.

Fear is a powerful motivator. Unfortunately, people are unable to always tell that they are being manipulated into fear and it's not a natural reaction.

I don't know _X_ group, therefore I fear them. I know there are still some pretty homogenous areas of the country, and I think you have to work pretty hard to not have any contact in your life with someone gay/liberal/non-white etc. Can we blame the education system, or how much of this is just plain willful ignorance?

My grandpa, who prior to WWII, had never left Nebraska, much less seen a person who was not white in his life. He was sent to fight in New Guinea. I asked him what he thought of the Japanese soldiers he had fought, he replied that they were just guys like him, having to do a job and that they probably had more in common than not. So I don't think I necessarily buy a lack of education or exposure to different people.

I'm in a philosophical mood today, just pondering the nature of fear and paranoia.

[Peas n carrots]

Honestly, it seems that many conservatives seem to enjoy living in fear and paranoia.

Question: can fear/paranoia be a drug to the social conservative? Some seem to deny pleasure in many other areas of their lives, and this is perhaps they only "thrill" they get?

[Anise]

Fear is a great motivator. I think that much of the fear has roots in the narratives spread by leaders of such movements in order to gain control.

[FakePigtails]

Question: can fear/paranoia be a drug to the social conservative? Some seem to deny pleasure in many other areas of their lives, and this is perhaps they only "thrill" they get?

I thankfully don't know too many people who live in such fear, but the ones I do seem to be the same who've gotten extremely lucky in life and honestly it seems like they're looking for problems not knowing what real problems actually are (I'm thinking things like immediate family members facing deadly illnesses or accidents, edge-of-bankruptcy financial issues, etc.). Or maybe they have had that in the past and forgotten it. I've had to bite my tongue, and failed at times at that, in the face of hearing about the "dramas" of their life :roll:; having dealt with close losses and terrifying near-losses in my life so far (and I'm half their age) I have little patience for their hand-wringing over petty, material things and assumptions of huge risk where there's really very little.

They are, incidentally, very conservative and very much of the "I've got mine, so screw you" mentality. It amuses me seeing as how they'd actually be at risk of much less crime in the long run with more liberal social policies since financially stable, well-educated and well-fed people have much less reason to commit the crimes these people are so afraid of. But that would involve the government stealing "their" money and giving it to those who didn't work hard enough to deserve it and we can't have that now can we?

[fundiefan]

I don't know _X_ group, therefore I fear them. I know there are still some pretty homogenous areas of the country, and I think you have to work pretty hard to not have any contact in your life with someone gay/liberal/non-white etc. Can we blame the education system, or how much of this is just plain willful ignorance?

My grandpa, who prior to WWII, had never left Nebraska, much less seen a person who was not white in his life. He was sent to fight in New Guinea. I asked him what he thought of the Japanese soldiers he had fought, he replied that they were just guys like him, having to do a job and that they probably had more in common than not. So I don't think I necessarily buy a lack of education or exposure to different people.

I'm in a philosophical mood today, just pondering the nature of fear and paranoia.

I don't think one has to be uneducated or inexperienced to not be able to tell they're being manipulated. We all have natural fears and instincts and fears we've 'inherited' through our experiences and the experiences of those around us. It's the manipulators who use those fears. It's not lack of education, knowledge, intelligence or anything else. It's a skilled manipulator in a position of power/control/influence who uses existing, natural fears and turns them into life affecting ones.

[gustava]

I also think this conservative fear is related to (if not rooted in) the notion of original sin and the fall of man. If we're all born sinful, then it makes is simple to ascribe evil to those we don't know. And isn't this what makes the Pearls so successful: To train up a child means to curb that sinfulness with which we are each born?

[ElphabaGalinda]

I think it's also a method of control. Like if conservative leaders strike fear into the people that follow them by latching onto the worst case scenarios, then people are less likely to leave the movement. If you make everyone seem scary, then you're less likely to think about what you've been told and question it. These kinds of beliefs don't stand up well to critical thinking, so fear mongering is how they're perpetuated.

Wanted to add that I don't think a woman who wants to use birth control to screw as many men as possible is not viewing the worst in humanity. Whether a woman who wants birth control has sex with no men, one man, five men, or even a thousand men is none of my business like any choice a woman makes, and really has nothing to do with anything. Though I do agree that's an example of taking something to the extreme without thinking of the other possibility, and it's used to be frightening.

[chiccy]

I think the OP is very, very astute. I wish we had a "favorites" button for posts on here.

I have noticed that my political beliefs are more conservative when my depression is in high gear, and relatively more liberal when it's being treated well. I think something about pessimism, assuming the worst about the world and people's tendencies, thinking the public is essentially bad and will tend toward entropy without certain counter-influences...all lends itself to conservatism. Unfortunately, my depression exacerbates that glass-half-empty worldview, which is why I think it makes me more conservative.

I think both ends of the political spectrum are logically supportable (except for the most far-right and far-left positions, and except for certain issues like gay marriage), but perspective/worldview can affect how one weighs different things in one's thinking. For example, giving fear more weight vs. giving opportunity more weight; trying to preserve oneself vs. extending charity towards others; appreciating the comfort of structure vs. celebrating the joy of freedom, and so on.

[jaynie]

I did read once (possibly here) that conservative people tend more towards black and white, simplistic thinking than their more liberal counterparts, and that could play into a fear reaction too. The more black-and-white conservative thinking might go "thief=criminal=bad=the world is falling apart!" whereas less simplistic thinking might go "thief=possibly a starving person / addicted / stuck in a bad place = sympathy = how can we fix this?"

I also agree with chiccy about depression leading to thinking the worst leading to conservatism. Now I've never been really (clinically) depressed, and nor have I stopped being a lefty, but if I do get into a temporary depression (of the this-was-a-bad-day sort), I do tend to give up on the world a bit. I basically feel like going off the grid, letting everyone else screw the planet up, and not worrying about it. Which is a bit of an I've-got-mine-fuck-you attitude that is common to conservatism. Hmm.

(Not suggesting all conservatives are that simplistic or that all liberals are that empathetic -- just making guesses based on reported trends, and statistics aren't people, after all.)

[pimpom]

Also...

Here in Holland we have a saying: Zoals de waard is vertrouwt hij zijn gasten. "The way the innkeeper is, that's how he trusts his guests"

Meaning that what you think of others reflects how you are. If you are constantly afraid people might steal things from you it might actually be because you are a total opportunist who wouls steal at the first chance given. etc. etc. etc.

Same with the dreaded 'gay agenda' they fear so much. Simply because THEY push their faith/ideas on others, they expect that others will want to do the same thing with their beliefs/lifestyle...

[Rosa]

I wonder if spanking kids makes them into more fearful adults.

[SayNoToMullets]

I did read once (possibly here) that conservative people tend more towards black and white, simplistic thinking than their more liberal counterparts, and that could play into a fear reaction too. The more black-and-white conservative thinking might go "thief=criminal=bad=the world is falling apart!" whereas less simplistic thinking might go "thief=possibly a starving person / addicted / stuck in a bad place = sympathy = how can we fix this?"

I also agree with chiccy about depression leading to thinking the worst leading to conservatism. Now I've never been really (clinically) depressed, and nor have I stopped being a lefty, but if I do get into a temporary depression (of the this-was-a-bad-day sort), I do tend to give up on the world a bit. I basically feel like going off the grid, letting everyone else screw the planet up, and not worrying about it. Which is a bit of an I've-got-mine-fuck-you attitude that is common to conservatism. Hmm.

(Not suggesting all conservatives are that simplistic or that all liberals are that empathetic -- just making guesses based on reported trends, and statistics aren't people, after all.)

There was a meta-analysis of the literature (several years ago, I remember reading it in undergrad) on the link between certain psychological markers and political ideology, and the findings were consistent with that:

http://www.sulloway.org/PoliticalConser ... 003%29.pdf

It's 37 pages long, so the upshot is that conservatives tend to have:

Higher death anxiety

Higher system instability

Higher intolerance of ambiguity

Lower openness to experience

Lower tolerance of uncertainty

Higher need for order, structure, and closure

Lower integrative complexity

Higher fear of threat and loss

Lower self-esteem

The paper stops short of calling conservatism a pathology in and of itself; it regards it as a "motivated social cognition," in that any political ideology is in response to a psychosocial context. But looking at the findings, I would draw the conclusion that depression and anxiety disorders probably would have a correlation with conservative ideology. Because that does lend itself to "I got mine, screw you."

[valsa]

But looking at the findings, I would draw the conclusion that depression and anxiety disorders probably would have a correlation with conservative ideology. Because that does lend itself to "I got mine, screw you."

Which is curious because many members here who suffer from depression and/or anxiety disorders (myself included) are liberals. I wonder if it's a case of depression/anxiety leading to conservative ideology or conservative ideology causing depression and anxiety.

[ElphabaGalinda]

Which is curious because many members here who suffer from depression and/or anxiety disorders (myself included) are liberals. I wonder if it's a case of depression/anxiety leading to conservative ideology or conservative ideology causing depression and anxiety.

I'm thinking that depression and/or anxiety can lead some people to conservative ideology because it's a promise that if you follow this set of rules then you will be happy/everything will be perfect. It probably draws some people who feel like their lives are out of control for whatever reason (possibly in part due to their anxiety or depression issues), because this ideology gives them a lot of the appearance of control.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Which is curious because many members here who suffer from depression and/or anxiety disorders (myself included) are liberals. I wonder if it's a case of depression/anxiety leading to conservative ideology or conservative ideology causing depression and anxiety.

That's a very interesting question. I'm a fellow progressive-depressive. ;) I wonder if dealing with depression/anxiety might, in some cases, give people more compassion (though I know sometimes it goes the opposite way) and ability to understand nuances. For example, if you've experienced being so depressed or panicked that you can barely make it out of bed for weeks on end, you might not be so quick to assume that folks on welfare are just "lazy". Also, if you're depressed/anxious because of PTSD - say from sexual assault or an abusive relationship - you might be more likely to understand that one is not always in control of whether they have sex and/or get pregnant.

At the same time, keeping up with politics and current events from a liberal perspective might also make one anxious/depressed (I know it contributes to my issues, but I think it's too important not to pay attention.) I think that if you're a fundie, even if you thrive on fear and hatred of the current political situation, you still believe that you have the answer to how everything can be "fixed". If you're a progressive, or even a moderate, you're more likely to be aware of how complicated the world really is and how difficult it is to find workable solutions, and that can lead to a sense of helplessness and fear that can lead to depression.

As far as thinking the worst of people...As a sexual abuse survivor, I have PTSD that sometimes manifests itself as extreme fear and suspicion of any and all men. Sometimes I don't even think about it, and other times a man will bump into me on the train and I'll cry all night. I have a huge fear of being victimized again. But I try not to let it run my life, and I especially work hard not to let my fear dictate my relationships with men.

[chiccy]

Which is curious because many members here who suffer from depression and/or anxiety disorders (myself included) are liberals. I wonder if it's a case of depression/anxiety leading to conservative ideology or conservative ideology causing depression and anxiety.

Well, correlation does not imply causation. But if we're looking for causation here, I think it's the former rather than the latter; I mean, as depressing as many conservative beliefs are, they aren't likely to cause clinical depression. (However, there could be some degree of exception to that--for example, kids from authoritarian conservative households might be more depressed while also holding on to their parents' conservative views. So that would be a case of C causing A and B.) I think in general depression is caused by a complicated mix of biological/genetic and environmental factors that could only be tangentially related to a conservative situation, not wholly accounted for by it.

[valsa]

I mean, as depressing as many conservative beliefs are, they aren't likely to cause clinical depression.

I don't know about that. The whole conservative mindset, from what I've seen, could easily lead to depression or anxiety. It's a mindset ruled by fear- believing that there are dangers everywhere (at our borders, in our government, at our schools, on our doorsteps) The conservative mindset says that the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket, everyone is looking for a way to cheat you out of everything you have, and the only way to combat it is to be an even bigger asshole and screw everyone else out of everything they have first. That worldview is ripe for fear, paranoia, helplessness, and anger. It's also only a stone's throw away from real mental health issues like depression and anxiety.

[chiccy]

I don't know about that. The whole conservative mindset, from what I've seen, could easily lead to depression or anxiety. It's a mindset ruled by fear- believing that there are dangers everywhere (at our borders, in our government, at our schools, on our doorsteps) The conservative mindset says that the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket, everyone is looking for a way to cheat you out of everything you have, and the only way to combat it is to be an even bigger asshole and screw everyone else out of everything they have first. That worldview is ripe for fear, paranoia, helplessness, and anger. It's also only a stone's throw away from real mental health issues like depression and anxiety.

Hmm. You have a point. Also, being raised with conservative influences in my family, I found it can translate into behavior even independent of political opinions. My father translated his conservatism into being strict, controlling, and a fearmonger. I guess "it's a lifestyle" as they say...

The mitigating factor might be that many conservatives are also religious, and this can sometimes have the effect of balancing out the conservative temperament. Of course, often it doesn't...but sometimes religion does in fact inspire more charitable and tolerant feelings. I'm just trying to figure out why many conservatives, especially religious ones, seem to be quite happy.

[valsa]

I'm just trying to figure out why many conservatives, especially religious ones, seem to be quite happy.

I think the bolded part may be the key there. I've been both suicidally depressed and suicidal from severe anxiety and never showed any outward symptoms. My own mother lived with me and never knew until I told her.

[chiccy]

I think the bolded part may be the key there. I've been both suicidally depressed and suicidal from severe anxiety and never showed any outward symptoms. My own mother lived with me and never knew until I told her.

I'm sorry that happened to you; I've been in similar situations, and while people have had inklings in my case, it's true that many of them don't know what's actually going on. But surely there are some conservatives who are happy? I mean, Mitt Romney seems happy. At the extreme end, Michelle Duggar seems happy (I'm 95% kidding; she is not actually a legitimate example of anything...but still, she seems happy in her sick, self-centered little way).

Yeah, I'm saying "seems"...but is there any evidence that Mitt Romney is not happy? I'm not saying it would be dispositive either way. I guess I'm just trying to say that there must be some, if not many, conservatives who are legitimately happy.

[valsa]

I guess I'm just trying to say that there must be some, if not many, conservatives who are legitimately happy.

Maybe I just don't get your point but my first thought is "so?" No one has said that, just because a significant portion of a specific population tends to have certain attributes, all of members of that population have to have those attributes. Also, though I don't know about depression (anxiety is my major issues and I've only had one episode of depression in my life), you can certainly have anxiety problems and be generally happy. I've had an anxiety disorder since I was 4 or 5 years old but I still consider myself generally happy.

[FakePigtails]

Hmm. You have a point. Also, being raised with conservative influences in my family, I found it can translate into behavior even independent of political opinions. My father translated his conservatism into being strict, controlling, and a fearmonger. I guess "it's a lifestyle" as they say...

The mitigating factor might be that many conservatives are also religious, and this can sometimes have the effect of balancing out the conservative temperament. Of course, often it doesn't...but sometimes religion does in fact inspire more charitable and tolerant feelings. I'm just trying to figure out why many conservatives, especially religious ones, seem to be quite happy.

I find it so fascinating when it doesn't. It amazes me when I see extremely religious people who are also extremely conservative seemingly missing the many parts in the Bible about things like trusting God when in fear and not fussing over material possessions and money, helping the poor and treating others as you want to be treated. Maybe it was just that my church growing up overemphasized those things, but it's crazy how the politically conservative worldview so quickly throws out those lessons and yet holds onto the ones about things like, well, anything related to sex.

In terms of political leanings causing depression and anxiety or vice-versa, I at the moment will lean the former. Not by a big margin, but there anyway. I just try to imagine how those people I know live with those beliefs and I can't imagine how depressing and anxiety-inducing it would be to think so badly of the world. Seriously, I can't put myself in those shoes for more than a minute without feeling down. The thought of constantly feeling that fear and distrust is tiring and saddening.

I love this thread, btw, it's such an interesting discussion!