The Case for Early Marriage

[atheistjd]

Back on topic (sorry for the derail...), has anyone read this guy's books? I remember hearing about "Forbidden Fruit" when it cam out but never got around to reading it. I'm tempted to pick that and/or his new book up this summer but am wondering if they are worth it either for the interesting data (he teaches at UT so he seems to be fairly legit) or snark potential. I'm more than a little fascinated by his realistic view of abstinence (combined with his seemingly unrealistic views of marriage/divorce, at least within the "Christian" context).

Also, I used to attend an evangelical church much like the ones he describes and what he fails to mention is that the "singles" groups aren't just full of frustrated 30-somethings but also full of a LOT of divorcees. My mom used to call the singles ministry the meat market. And the ratio was definitely at least 3-1 f-m, making it even more desperate-seeming. Most of the people who met and married in the singles ministry ended up divorced (sometimes again) in a few years.

[RR88]

+1 on what debrand said (bolded)! Just my opinion, but if you think you are old enough to make the very adult decision to get married, you should have taken the adult steps needed to support yourself (spouse should have done this too obviously). If family members choose to help you financially after you are married, that is their business. However, if a couple got married & felt entitled to external financial support, I would call that a huge red flag regarding their respective maturity levels & not a promising sign for the marriage. Adult decisions = adult responsibilities, which is why I am against unprepared youngsters getting hitched or being encouraged to get hitched.

You should talk to my high school classmates. Nearly all of them receive parental support so that their husbands can study Torah all day.

[currywurst]

I'm one that believes early marriage is a bad idea. Certainly there are some early marriages that last and are happy, but more often than not, an early marriage ends in divorce. It's better to wait until you are financially sound, emotionally ready, and mentally mature before taking the big step of sharing your life with someone. If you can barely get yourself together, how are you going to manage being part of a couple?

This ^. If Christians and other fundies really, truly cared about marriage, family, and children, then they would advise people to wait until their late 20s to get married. They would also tell people to date your future spouse for at least 2 years and to make sure that you are sexually compatible with them. Early marriages have an incredibly high divorce rate.

Look at that poor Priscilla. Based on the way she describes her "courtship," you can tell she does not even LIKE her husband very much, much less love him enough to have a good marriage. She was young and immature when she decided to marry him and obviously had no idea what it takes to have a good relationship or a good marriage.

[Childless]

We tried to pay for our own wedding. We got married at the courthouse and our plan was to tell everyone (we really didn't have that many people there) that we were going out to X restaurant afterward to celebrate and they were welcome to join us if they wanted to do so. My parents, however, insisted on throwing us a small reception. I tried to argue against it, but eventually I gave in because I realized I wasn't going to win. They paid for all of my sisters' weddings and felt they'd be cheating me somehow if they didn't foot the bill for something. I got married when I was 34 years old. I felt it rather pathetic not to pay for it myself, but when my mom is determined, there's no stopping her. We did foot the bill for our Rome and Venice honeymoon ourselves though. :D

[Elle]

What about parents saving for retirement?

You just hit on why I'm against making paying for an adult child's college a priority over all else. Young adults can get loans for college, but we can't get loans to fund our sunset years, and having been in the position of having to support a parent who didn't plan ahead, I'd rather place the burden of college loans on my daughter than to expect her to fund my financial shortfalls in my retired years. If we can make good headway into funding retirement, then we absolutely will help with college (if she chooses to go - not all career paths require it and I think it's foolish to pressure a kid into acquiring debt for something they don't want to do when trade schools are just as good of an alternative, cost less, and many trade jobs pay damned well). But our priority will be funding retirement to spare her from having to support aging parents.

I know you weren't looking at it from this angle since fundies don't really believe in real college, but I agree with you too about how it's not right to pressure kids into early marriage before they can support themselves. I suppose it would be easier to support aging parents if there are 8 or 10 kids to share the burden though, as used to be done, so not saving for retirement might not be as big of a deal if you've got a ton of kids, but I still don't think it's right to outright expect that one's kids will be happy to stand up and take in the responsibility. Of course one might hope that one's kids would happily be there, but what happens when a kid is too self-centered, selfish, or just plain doesn't have the money despite wanting to be there? Maybe because of having to support their own married-young kids? Huge problems, relying on your kids in this way, and as a daughter of an alcoholic mother who is a perpetual victim of life with a massive sense of entitlement to the point that if I have anything nicer than she does, then I'm a selfish bitch for not giving her all my money that I finally had to cut out of my life after several years of her pulling me down and making false accusations against every guy I've ever dated, including claiming my husband raped her even though she was living several hours away at the time she claimed it and I would have known if he was 700 miles away, just don't rely on your kids for support.

[PBrooke]

The thing about fundies is, they will always be too young and immature for marriage, even when they're 30. This is what happens when you're not allowed to interact with anyone of the opposite sex, when you never learn to distinguish between a crush and something more or just good old-fashioned lust. Either they luck out and wind up with someone they are compatible with or not, but they aren't really making an informed decision about anything. In some of these families they at least seem to have a thing for one another (Sanders), but there's no telling if that would have "gone the distance" if they were just dating. And for every fundie wedding that seems to at least have mutual attraction, there seem to be two like Priscilla's.

[Elle]

We tried to pay for our own wedding. We got married at the courthouse and our plan was to tell everyone (we really didn't have that many people there) that we were going out to X restaurant afterward to celebrate and they were welcome to join us if they wanted to do so. My parents, however, insisted on throwing us a small reception. I tried to argue against it, but eventually I gave in because I realized I wasn't going to win. They paid for all of my sisters' weddings and felt they'd be cheating me somehow if they didn't foot the bill for something. I got married when I was 34 years old. I felt it rather pathetic not to pay for it myself, but when my mom is determined, there's no stopping her. We did foot the bill for our Rome and Venice honeymoon ourselves though. :D

Your willingness to pay for it yourself, and to make it low-key to match your budget or desires for a low-key wedding speaks volumes about maturity.

I read wedding forums because the drama and stupidity in them can be really funny sometimes. And sad. Often, very often, brides want to know how they can get their parents to stop shirking their "responsibility." "A bride's mom is supposed to pay for her dress, but my mom won't spend a penny over $1500 and my dream dress is this $4,000-dress! How do I make her pay?" "My dad is disabled and low-income, but he should have been saving up for my wedding and I'm really mad that he's only going to give us $5,000 toward the wedding!" "His parents won't pay for the flowers and my parents can't afford it. What are we supposed to do?!" "How dare no one offer to pay for the rehearsal dinner! If no one offered to pay, then I would just have the rehearsal and not feed anyone." (I read that one just this morning.)

Biiiig different between that, and being willing to pay for your own wedding without complaint but having family offer or insist on helping with the cost and graciously accepting.

When we got married, we paid for it all ourselves, except the cake stuff. My mother-in-law wouldn't take no for an answer on that one. The only thing that we were mad at someone else not paying for was his dad insisting that we just HAD to invite three buddies of his that we hadn't met, we just HAD to, when our wedding was a whopping total of 50 people, and then none of them showed up. To fit his buddies into the small venue space, we had to cut a few people we actually wanted there. But no invites for his pals meant he wouldn't come, and my husband would have been crushed for his dad to not be there (this self-centeredness is why his mom divorced his dad). We feel that, since we went out of our way to accommodate his demands, and his friends didn't show, that he should have offered to pay for their plates. We lost the money AND the chance for three of our own friends to be there only to have empty seats. I'm still pissed about it to this day. I detest the man. He detests me too because it's somehow my fault that his only grandchild is a girl when he wanted a grandson and he treats his only granddaughter like shit - like the few gifts he has given her were things he bought for his girlfriend's grandchild that that kid outgrew, and he lets us know that his gifts to his own grandchild are cast-offs he originally bought for someone else. Fucker. And now I'm going way off topic. Oops.

Anyway I think that a couple mature enough to get married should be mature and stable enough to be willing to pay for their own wedding and to have one within their means, even if someone else offers to help. If not getting the fluffy white gown and 10-tier cake and crystal carriage means your wedding will suck, then you're not getting married for the right reasons. The wedding is one day, and the marriage is supposed to be for the rest of your life. My marriage would be no different if he had just eloped on a Wednesday, as we almost did, and there's be no resentment if we had. Unfortunately a lot of people think the wedding itself is the same as being married, and far too many people getting married think they're entitled to having it all paid for by others.

[Elle]

Parental sex (which is what married sex is to these people, have sex, have a baby, have sex when baby is sleeping) isn't all that. I'll be blunt. We've managed it three times in the last year. And it's always rushed. Because our child is a light sleeper, and when she's sleeping alone, the slightest sound wakes her up and she'll come running. I don't know how fundies with half a dozen young kids manage it. How can sex be that spectacular when an ear is always open for pattering footsteps outside the door, or, as happened to use the last time, a small fry walks in?

Say typical Ms. Fundy gets knocked up within a couple months. Chances are they've just barely figured out how to make it somewhat enjoyable and he might be able to last three minutes now instead of getting there just taking off his underwear. Now they're going to have to figure it out against since she's pregnant and will have a growing belly that makes certain positions uncomfortable or outright painful. Then along comes baby, and newborns aren't known for sleeping much. So they have to learn AGAIN how to make it work. But chances are she'll be pregnant within a year, so now it's sex with a baby as well as pregnancy, finding a way to make that work. And when the second baby is born, now you've got even less time.

So I can't really see how on earth waiting for marriage will make great sex. Premarital sex, or more accurately sex before getting knocked up, when you're using birth control, gives you the change to figure it out and learn to make even quickies somewhat fun and without the stress about getting pregnant (whether you're wanting to or not wanting to, I think most of us know that BC-less sex brings some stress whether from hope it happens or hope it doesn't).

[moreorlessnu]

How can sex be that spectacular when an ear is always open for pattering footsteps outside the door, or, as happened to use the last time, a small fry walks in?

You have to wonder.

I have friends who are expecting their 8th kid. They frequently post pictures on Facebook of 3 or 4 of the smaller kids sleeping in the parents bed in the morning. If the kids are finding their way into the parents' bed during the middle of the night, how on earth were all those kids conceived?

[QAF_Rocks]

This statement annoys me for several reasons. First, Christians shouldn't be shaming young men who don't want to marry. You shouldn't marry just because other people expect you to do so. Secnod, why does he think that it is only young men who are delaying marriage. Perhaps he believes that Christian women are sitting around desperately waiting for men to ask for their hand. Traveling, getting to know oneself can be a part of the maturing process. Having fun does not mean that one is mature. Marriage is not a marker of maturity.

This is so odd to me. Why should a twenty-something woman automatically be interested in marrying? When I was in my twenties, marriage was the furthest thing from my mind. I felt like I was still young, and there was no reason to marry young. I wasn't itching to walk down the aisle in a dress, or to start having babies. Now that I'm almost 35, I'm still not interested. I have a long-term relationship, but see no reason to marry just because it's what you're "supposed to do." Actually, that's probably the reason I haven't done it! I don't like the idea that being married automatically confers societal respect. Whether someone is married (or involved in any kind of intimate relationship) has nothing to do with maturity or morality, and I don't want people to be respected or disrespected simply because of a piece of paper.

[Rosa]

Parental sex (which is what married sex is to these people, have sex, have a baby, have sex when baby is sleeping) isn't all that. I'll be blunt. We've managed it three times in the last year. And it's always rushed. Because our child is a light sleeper, and when she's sleeping alone, the slightest sound wakes her up and she'll come running. I don't know how fundies with half a dozen young kids manage it. How can sex be that spectacular when an ear is always open for pattering footsteps outside the door, or, as happened to use the last time, a small fry walks in?

The married-young traditional-gender-roles Baptist-or-fundie method common where I grew up is:

1) lock your door

2) teach the kids to never ever bother you after bedtime (sometimes with spanking, sometimes not)

3) eliminate all kid needs - no liquids in the evening if you've got a bedwetter, cry it out, no comforting or only siblings for comfort in case of night terrors, etc. Moms who don't adhere to this kind of parenting are often really reticent to admit it because the common thought is that kids who get up in the night are dependent, whiny, spoiled, and probably only getting up because you've taught them it's all right and they're naturally manipulative/selfish.

I know a few women my age who definitely raised their kids this way, and just about everyone I knew growing up was raised this way. It's hell on wheels when the kids get to be young teenagers and realize that once you retreat and lock the door they're free to do whatever they want as long as you don't hear them.

[darkplumaged]

2) teach the kids to never ever bother you after bedtime (sometimes with spanking, sometimes not).

Right, because making more baybeez is always more important than tending to the ones you have, even if they're sick or frightened. These people sure do love children! :roll:

[Mela99]

Interesting....

I always wondered what the rush to the altar was all about when fundies get engaged. I mean, the minute Smugz popped the ring they started planning ASAP - same for Priscilla/David.

Adds to my theory that being raised fundie destroys accountability and self-control.

[fluttershies]

Interesting....

I always wondered what the rush to the altar was all about when fundies get engaged. I mean, the minute Smugz popped the ring they started planning ASAP - same for Priscilla/David.

Adds to my theory that being raised fundie destroys accountability and self-control.

Long engagements aren't practical for everyone. People who get married for health insurance or because one partner is joining the military usually have very short engagements, I don't see the lack of accountability and self-control in that. I wouldn't have a long engagement because I don't want the kind of wedding that would need a lot of planning, it just depends.

[Dev83]

I got married relatively young (23 - H was 27), but we were finacially stable, living together, and we paid for 90% of our wedding ourselves. My parents paid for my dress and the booze (ha! priorities people!) and H's parents paid for the rehersal dinner. Everything else we paid for - so we had to make choices. We chose to have a smaller wedding, and we had it at an inexpensive place (something hard to find in Southern California). We splurged instead on our honeymoon to Paris, which was worth every penny. H and I have a good marriage, and we really lucked out, because I have changed a ton since we were married 5 1/2 years ago. The realization of the amount of changing I did in a relatively shrot period of time is enough for me to want my future kids to wait until their mid to late twenties to get married. It has worked out for us so far, but we are the exception, not the rule. Our friends that got married about 2 months before us just filed for divorce, and another couple that married a year before us is close to following suit. It is just not worth rushing into marriage - it is much easier to get married than it is to get divorced.

Another reason I think we have been lucky to have a solid marriage? We both had life experiences before we were married. We both lived on our own, supported ourselves, had past relationships (including lots of the ebil sex!) and really learned who we were outside of a relationship.

[Dev83]

Long engagements aren't practical for everyone. People who get married for health insurance or because one partner is joining the military usually have very short engagements, I don't see the lack of accountability and self-control in that. I wouldn't have a long engagement because I don't want the kind of wedding that would need a lot of planning, it just depends.

We had a 6 month engagement, which is short at least in my group of friends. And there was no real reason for it, except that we both just wanted to get married already and move on. Plus I hated planning my wedding, so more than 6 months and I think I would have ended up in a padded room somewhere lol

[ladidah]

We had a very brief engagement because we didn't want the wedding-planning to take over our lives. It did lead to some snide speculation behind ("behind") our backs, but whatever.

[mystweaver]

We officially had a 4 month engagement, but had been unofficially 'engaged' for over a year and had our wedding planned by the official engagement. It was wonderful. Any more than four months for us would have been crazy-making with weddings, families, friends, and school.

[InkyGirl]

Mr. Inky and I got engaged fairly quickly, but we were engaged for about a year before getting married. Our wedding was very low key and we paid for about half of it. My parents paid for all the food and some random decorations that my mom saw and liked. His mom made the cake, well cupcakes and paid for the church hall. I think my mom paid for the dress... but I got it at goodwill and had a local lady alter it all for about 150$ But we were fully willing to do it on our own, and could have because we didn't want anything fancy. We ended up having a circus theme complete with cotton candy and elephant ears made by a friend of the family. It was bright and cheerful and fun. The reception ended up being a little bit chaotic do to too many people showing up and it being 100 degrees inside the building! Seriously, the RSVPs have a purpose people! :evil:

[Kitty]

Honestly, I don't see the point of being engaged for years on end before finally getting married. A few months to a year is long enough. Then again, I've never been engaged, and all the engaged people I know have been engaged since 11th grade, with zero plans and no date, even after all this time. I always thought the engagement period was for planning not only the wedding but figuring out logistics of moving in/out/wherever, finances, tedious stuff like that. Of course, stuff like that might take a few years, but to me that's different.

What concerns me more about rushed fundie weddings is how short the courtships are. You can't marry someone you've *known* for only a few months with limited contact! These kids can't even touch each other half the time, nor can they even be afforded a few minutes alone on the back porch just to talk. Do fundie couples ever get to really know each other, in this case? Sure, they make a dozen babies but that doesn't mean they actually know each other! A short engagement isn't nearly as bad as a short courting/dating period, imo. Engagement isn't the "next base to run to" or whatever, it's not a game or a formula. It's a very serious decision and I hate how it's become another aspect of fairytale weddings.

[dawbs]

Honestly, I don't see the point of being engaged for years on end before finally getting married. A few months to a year is long enough. Then again, I've never been engaged, and all the engaged people I know have been engaged since 11th grade, with zero plans and no date, even after all this time. I always thought the engagement period was for planning not only the wedding but figuring out logistics of moving in/out/wherever, finances, tedious stuff like that. Of course, stuff like that might take a few years, but to me that's different.

What concerns me more about rushed fundie weddings is how short the courtships are. You can't marry someone you've *known* for only a few months with limited contact! These kids can't even touch each other half the time, nor can they even be afforded a few minutes alone on the back porch just to talk. Do fundie couples ever get to really know each other, in this case? Sure, they make a dozen babies but that doesn't mean they actually know each other! A short engagement isn't nearly as bad as a short courting/dating period, imo. Engagement isn't the "next base to run to" or whatever, it's not a game or a formula. It's a very serious decision and I hate how it's become another aspect of fairytale weddings.

I actually think this is key.

The length of time from "Hi, My name is Dawbs, and you are? ....Nice to meet you" to "this is my husband..."is important.

Not the amount of time from 'Hi, I'm...' to 'this is my boyfriend' to 'this is my FI' to "this is my husband".

Not that there aren't exceptions to every rule (of course there are--as my ILs who have been happily married for 35 years and knew each other 3 weeks before they were engaged and 3 months before the marriage will point out--of course, they also would have been PISSED if their kids had pulled that :-P), but they keys are knowing yourself and knowing someone else, and, by extension of those 2 things, knowing your strengths and weaknesses as a couple--how you work together. Time together tends to be key to knowing those things.

[Dev83]

I actually think this is key.

The length of time from "Hi, My name is Dawbs, and you are? ....Nice to meet you" to "this is my husband..."is important.

Not the amount of time from 'Hi, I'm...' to 'this is my boyfriend' to 'this is my FI' to "this is my husband".

Not that there aren't exceptions to every rule (of course there are--as my ILs who have been happily married for 35 years and knew each other 3 weeks before they were engaged and 3 months before the marriage will point out--of course, they also would have been PISSED if their kids had pulled that :-P), but they keys are knowing yourself and knowing someone else, and, by extension of those 2 things, knowing your strengths and weaknesses as a couple--how you work together. Time together tends to be key to knowing those things.

Absolutely. There is no way that these couples really know each other. AT.ALL. This is also one of the reasons I think that sex before marriage and living together before marriage is so important. I know that this goes against some peoples beliefs, and that is fine, but I know that I hope my (non-existant) children do both before marriage. I think you should know as much about a person as humanly possible before getting married.

[QAF_Rocks]

Honestly, I don't see the point of being engaged for years on end before finally getting married. A few months to a year is long enough. Then again, I've never been engaged, and all the engaged people I know have been engaged since 11th grade, with zero plans and no date, even after all this time. I always thought the engagement period was for planning not only the wedding but figuring out logistics of moving in/out/wherever, finances, tedious stuff like that. Of course, stuff like that might take a few years, but to me that's different.

Well, I've been "engaged" for about seven or eight years now, but it's not really a serious engagement. I guess we plan on getting married when we have children (for the legal benefits, and also because we want to adopt), but we've been together well over a decade, and we've lived together almost as long.

I don't see the point of rushing an engagement, but of course in my world it's expected that you would live together for at least a few years beforehand. If that's the case, couples can afford to be leisurely about it, save up money if they want a big wedding, etc.