If a college degree is so bad, then why are you using yours?

[reds]

Do we know about what percentage of the population actually believes in this?

[samurai_sarah]

This, too. I worked my fucking arse off for my degree, I am not naturally very bright. I cried when I graduated because I couldn't quite believe it was real.

You don't just automatically learn! It takes study.

QFT.

And it annoys me to no end hearing people say how students do nothing, but drink away their student loans, and then get cushy jobs. That's totally not true (although I do admit to imbibing quite a bit, but so did everyone at that age, regardless of studying for a degree or not). Getting degrees costs blood, sweat and tears. Especially tears. Everyone who's ever had a heartfelt essay shred to pieces, and had to admit that they were right, knows what I'm talking about.

Btw: JFC, I personally and very sincerely doubt that you're not naturally smart. On the contrary!

[Letgo]

I don't see anything wrong with trade school.

There isn't anything wrong with it, but would many of them actually allow their children to attend one? Wouldn't universities and trade schools both require students to leave the family compound and attend classes. Both have the potential to expose the student to ideas contrary to what has been taught at home. I think Kendall's son will need to learn whatever trade he is leaning toward, at home. These families farm, build houses, learn computers, etc. But they do it from home so there can be total control over what the "children" see and hear. I bet the attitude toward trade school is only marginally different from the attitude toward college. Trade school might tend to have less risk of actually learning objectional ideas than a university would because students are there to learn a specific trade, not receive a broader, more generalized education. But there is still exposure to one's fellow students, so I doubt that many fundies would go for trade school. Any trades learned will be learned at home.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I think many of the fundies' idealized image of the trades includes some old-timey apprenticeship either from Dad or from some other upstanding Christian patriarch, yeah. They seem to think that the trades are somehow not of the modern world.

They will need to learn out of the house and that means with secular people, in 2012. If they apprentice with some firm, it will be worldly. I suppose the upshot is they won't be required to take general education classes that will make them think critically about history, so that might be enough for them.

[FaustianSlip]

I also get sick to death of all the fundies carrying on about what a "waste" it is, yadda yadda. My grandmother was a college/career counselor at a community college for quite a while, and what she always said about college was, "It's not just what you study. A college degree shows potential employers that you're able to fulfill long-term commitments, finish what you start, complete both short- and long-term assignments, get places on time and do what's expected of you. Yes, you choose a major, but the other stuff matter just as much." That's not to say that people who don't attend college, for whatever reason, are incapable of showing the aforementioned characteristics (or that all college students embody those qualities, especially in an age of helicopter parenting), but I think she's got a valid point. It's not just what you learn while you're parked at a desk in a classroom. It's also about being independent, networking, being a part of a larger community, et cetera. The whole, "Oh, well, if you're going to study history or literature or something, you might as well not go at all" people are so missing the point. Also, I would like to stand up and say that I'm a history major (with a Master's in poli-sci, no less!) who is gainfully employed in a competitive field making what I call "grown-up money." The vast majority of my friends with degrees in similar fields have also done very well for themselves. Similarly, I know engineers and people with technical, "useful" degrees who are unemployed. So whatever. It's not the degree you have, it's how you use it and how you present yourself, I find.

I also previously worked in the railroad industry, a solid, well-paying job that does not require a college degree and at which you can make a very comfortable, middle class living (at least until the GOP completely destroys the railroad unions and infrastructure here in the US). It was good, honest work, and I loved it, but it's hard, physically demanding work. To get the good jobs with good hours, you have to have seniority, which you only get by putting your time in on shitty jobs and moving up the seniority roster. Until that time, you're going to be working inconsistent times, strange hours, sometimes repeated shifts of eight hours on, eight hours off, and another eight hours on. As the junior person on a job, you'll be the one outside in three feet of snow digging out a switch and throwing it. Even once you gain some seniority, you'll still end up spending plenty of time climbing under and between train cars, out at midnight doing switching jobs and going out in all kinds of weather conditions to work. It can be a very tough gig, very, very dangerous, and it takes a toll on your body. One of the people I worked with once told me, "Listen, this job is great when you're in your twenties, but you're not going to want to be crawling under a train to replace an airbrake hose when you're fifty." I'm not sure that's true, but I do think it's generally true that the trades can be much more physically taxing and exact a much greater toll on the body than the fundies like to admit. Certainly the potential for sudden death or serious injury can be much higher in a number of trade fields. And really, if you don't want to be a plumber or electrician or whatever, you're going to hate it no matter how great the money is.

[samurai_sarah]

I think many of the fundies' idealized image of the trades includes some old-timey apprenticeship either from Dad or from some other upstanding Christian patriarch, yeah. They seem to think that the trades are somehow not of the modern world.

They will need to learn out of the house and that means with secular people, in 2012. If they apprentice with some firm, it will be worldly. I suppose the upshot is they won't be required to take general education classes that will make them think critically about history, so that might be enough for them.

The fundie idea of learning some "old-timey" trade always makes me chuckle. In some trades, in Germany, there's a tradition hailing back to the Middle Ages, of travelling apprentices. The rules are quite strict - can't remember if you're supposed to be on the road for one, or three years, but you're only allowed to have certain possessions, can't go closer to home than a certain number of kilometres, and get paid in kind (?). Not sure about the specifics, but the idea is that you're going out there to learn new things in new places. Traditional trades being passed down is a nice, albeit silly, idea. The traditional trades always have been competitive and dependent on new ideas and techniques. Things change, and you can't just "learn" a trade, and expect time to stand still. Looking at changes in auto-mechanics alone should make that obvious. Unless one aims for bare subsistence farming (not modern agriculture), the idea that staying out of the world is feasible, is rather unrealistic.

[FlorenceHamilton]

First,

To JesusFightClub:

I remember you once said something about not having a high IQ on some kind of testing that you had done. I think that the test was either culture biased against you or you have some sort of learning difference that manifested more acutely on standardized tests. Your language content and character as well as your ability to form coherent, logical thoughts appears to be in an above average range. Just sayin....

Second

Regarding the topic:

I went to college and my children have gone to college. I now live in an apartment building that has lots of college students at a school that is known as a "party" school. The fundamentalists use this aspect of college life to paint a picture. It is like looking at the sunset through a straw. Yes, college kids try their wings, they get a little bit wild, they push the limits of their independence and do stupid and sometimes risky things. Yes, they find their sexuality and sometimes dye their hair green . But most of them also study, think and learn. The college experience is not just one of those Porkies movies. I remember my son used to tell me that he partied from Thursday night to Saturday night and studied like a maniac from Sunday morning to Thursday afternoon. When all was said and done, the majority of these young people have learned many lessons both inside and outside the classroom.

riffle

[Wolfie]

Not to mention that weaving, knitting etc were often jobs for the men. EVERYONE needs to know how to cook and clean and manage a household budget and mend clothing and many other skills that fundies label as being for women. What if these fundie husbands are left widowers? People talk about the skills gap college graduates face but surely the homemaker 'training' fundie girls receive is even more inadequate.

Women usually did the spinning and knitting, but men were the weavers. And both sexes did sewing (seamstresses/tailors)

And I agree, that both the girls AND boys need to know how to care for a house and budget.

[pomology]

First,

To JesusFightClub:

I remember you once said something about not having a high IQ on some kind of testing that you had done. I think that the test was either culture biased against you or you have some sort of learning difference that manifested more acutely on standardized tests. Your language content and character as well as your ability to form coherent, logical thoughts appears to be in an above average range. Just sayin....

QFT.

[fundifugee]

Women usually did the spinning and knitting, but men were the weavers. And both sexes did sewing (seamstresses/tailors)

And I agree, that both the girls AND boys need to know how to care for a house and budget.

Actually, if The Shipping News is correct, knitting was initially a male occupation, and it was originally iterated to catch fish (knitting netting).

And I will exploit the above point into a segue for my favourite knitting joke:

This [truck] driver used to barrel right across Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, had his arms sticking through the steering wheel, knitting like a machine. Had a proper gansey knit by the time he got to Montreal, sell it for good money...[One] time buddy was ripping right along down the Trans-Canada knitting about as fast as the truck was going when this Mountie spies him. Starts to chase after him, doing a hundred and forty km per. Finally gets alongside, signs the transport feller to stop, but he's so deep in his knitting he never notices. Mountie flashes his light, finally has to shout out the window, 'Pull over! Pull over! So the great trasnport knitter looks at the Mountie, shakes his head a bit and says, "Why no sir, 'tis a cardigan.' "

from The Shipping News by E. Annie Proulx

[fluttershies]

Actually, if The Shipping News is correct, knitting was initially a male occupation, and it was originally iterated to catch fish (knitting netting).

And I will exploit the above point into a segue for my favourite knitting joke:

Yep, knitting was a male occupation. And I love that joke :D

[Conuly]

Weaving was at least sometimes a female occupation. The affix -ster (as in spinster) applies to a female, and a webster is a female weaver. Webster is a common name, so it must have been a common enough occupation for women.

[fluttershies]

Weaving seems to be a female occupation up until the end of the Iron Age when an artisan class was established, and then from the Industrial Revolution onwards when most textile factory hands were women and children because they were cheaper. However, most weavers (in Europe at least) who were weaving by hand were men - hence the strength of the weavers' guilds, which were men-only. The Luddite and Chartist revolts happened partly because of employers using women over more expensive men.

[Turtle]

A college degree does not equal a "piece of paper". There is an intrinsic value in education. I don't work in the field that my degree is in, but not a day goes by that I'm not grateful for my ability to write coherently and think critically. Plus, I tried so many knew things in college. It helped me determine what I care about and enjoy doing.

I feel sad for her children.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

And I will exploit the above point into a segue for my favourite knitting joke:

And I'll jump on that to give a bad 9/11 joke:

Q: Why did the TSA confiscate knitting needles from the kindly grandmother?

A: They were afraid she might knit an Afghan...

[sarahconner]

To begin with, I don’t really think that a college degree is so bad. It depends upon what you have majored in. The sad part is, there are not many job opportunities in the market today for students of humanities, sociology, liberal arts, to name some fields. But there is a vast growth potential in medicine, engineering, business administration and IT. And no matter what field you majored in, college education does instill some values which will be useful in later life. It broadens your horizons, helps form a social network, and teaches you to be more disciplined, responsible, and more committed in your day-to-day life. I think you should read up some reviews about students’ views on college education. Going through Stevens-Henager testimonials showed what students think of the usefulness of a degree in their lives – hardly any said it wasn’t worth the time and money spent.

[Maggie Mae]

I've been known to bitch about my very, very expensive piece of paper. But the truth is, I'm incredibly grateful to have it. The experience alone of college makes it worth the cost. I learned so much more than just what we were tested on. I learned time management, accepting differences in people, learned how to study and think about things critically.

The school I went to had a lot of people who took the easiest possible courses, did the least amount of work, and came out with a degree. But there were plenty of people who worked hard and learned and contributed to class discussions and learned and went on to prestigious graduate schools. It's what you put in. If you hate learning and only want the degree so you can get a good job in the future, you study for the test and pass. If you love learning, you learn and participate and enjoy being challenged, and got a degree, then you still got something out of it. People get back what they put into anything, and education is no exception.

I'm all for trade schools too. In my location, we have a lot of blue collar workers. It is still possible (for now) to make a decent middle class wage 60-70K with just a two year degree. Commercial fishing is very popular too, and many people make a lot of money doing that. But the difference is that with fishing, it's very very very physically demanding. Most people "retire" pretty young. There's a certain nepotism to the industry as well, as from what i hear, it's pretty hard to get on a boat if you don't know the right people. Still, it's decent money (for now). Money can also be made in mining (especially now, as the old time miners decide to retire to warmer locations), and engineering. However, all of these jobs are pretty specific and require a different sort of lifestyle. One of my friends is a geologist who works for mine, and he gets next to no notice when he has to head out to the field. So one day you go to work and find out that next week, you will be getting on a plane and to prepare for at least a week, possibly more, and that the location you are going to doesn't have phone service.

Several of my friends work on a drill rigs/drill sites. Every two weeks they are gone for two weeks. You might technically only work half the year, but it's still two-three weeks on, two-three weeks off. If your child has a dance recital, tough. If your husband or wife has a medical emergency, most of the time you have to wait. I've known guys who flew up there, wanted to go back home, so they quit. But there were no planes with open space, so they had to wait 2-3 days before anyone could even send them back to their home town.

I get the impression that fundies have this idea that if everyone started behaving like they did, living for God and wearing prairie dresses & reenacting scenes from the Waltons, the world would be "so much better". But it's my opinion that they fail to realize how many people 7 billion people really is. We literally can not all buy a house (or even a car) without debt, we can't all work the land, we can't be puritans anymore. There are times when I'm reading Kendall or Zsu or even the Maxwells and I ponder the combination of lack of humanity/emphathy for other people, the pridefulness, and lack of education about history and it baffles me. It makes me sad that they can't see how boring the world would be if we were all the same.

[GolightlyGrrl]

Someone told me a year or so ago that college men were the largest group of new knitters. Don't know if it's true. Remember Roosevelt Grier, NFL player Chicago Bears? He used to knit on the sidelines.

Roosevelt Grier is the shit! Any of my fellow Gen X-ers remember this?

Y52bs0aX6v8

[Wolfie]

Yep, knitting was a male occupation. And I love that joke :D

I managed to miss this when it was posted- I'm going to have to say that it depended on what you knitted, and where you lived, because there are records of women knitting socks and stockings. But it makes perfect sense for men to have knit the fishing nets.

I think that the real issue here is that in the past male and female roles were not as clearly defined as fundies would like to make them.

[ilovetchotchkes]

There is nothing "wrong" with it, but it IS hard work. 50 years of manual labor is hard on the body. Trust me, I come from a long line of people who held just such jobs. It's decent, honest work, but it's hard. But that's not the issue. The issue is that it's being decided for them. They don't get the choice, mom and dad do. That's wrong.

See my last sentence:

If my kid wants to go to trade school, i'm going to cut them a deal. Do a BA first, 4 years, whatever major you want. You can even do a "throw away" major like Art. And I will help pay for trade school afterwards. This way, if s/he wants to go into a trade, they'll be well prepped to run their own business because most colleges require a handful of business courses. AND one of my good friends who has an MA, but is getting no financial benefit from it- decided to throw a beautician's license into the mix. She says that had she done it the other way around, she probably would not have had the skill set (she's got an LD) to adapt to learn the stuff to have a career that will make enough money for her to pay her bills.

[pixydust]

If my kid wants to go to trade school, i'm going to cut them a deal. Do a BA first, 4 years, whatever major you want. You can even do a "throw away" major like Art. And I will help pay for trade school afterwards. This way, if s/he wants to go into a trade, they'll be well prepped to run their own business because most colleges require a handful of business courses. AND one of my good friends who has an MA, but is getting no financial benefit from it- decided to throw a beautician's license into the mix. She says that had she done it the other way around, she probably would not have had the skill set (she's got an LD) to adapt to learn the stuff to have a career that will make enough money for her to pay her bills.

I have the same thoughts on that! If you want to be a plumber, great, but go to college and get a degree in business first, so one day you can run your own company, then become a plumber. My husbands family is full of electricians, plumbers, HVAC people, welders, etc. You know what? They all hate it, even his step dad who owns his own electrical contracting business. It's not for everyone, or even most people. It's hard, tiresome, often filthy work. You don't get much respect doing it, and all of your friends want you to rewire/fix a drain/whatever on your days off. It has to be a persons passion, or they will be miserable. My husband was an electrician, he hated it so much that he quit to take a job in auto parts (his passion, he's odd!) for over $6,000 a year less, but at least now he has peace of mind.

At least a college degree will give you options (for the most part) if you decide that you hate the field that you studied for!

[ilovetchotchkes]

I have the same thoughts on that! If you want to be a plumber, great, but go to college and get a degree in business first, so one day you can run your own company, then become a plumber. My husbands family is full of electricians, plumbers, HVAC people, welders, etc. You know what? They all hate it, even his step dad who owns his own electrical contracting business. It's not for everyone, or even most people. It's hard, tiresome, often filthy work. You don't get much respect doing it, and all of your friends want you to rewire/fix a drain/whatever on your days off. It has to be a persons passion, or they will be miserable. My husband was an electrician, he hated it so much that he quit to take a job in auto parts (his passion, he's odd!) for over $6,000 a year less, but at least now he has peace of mind.

At least a college degree will give you options (for the most part) if you decide that you hate the field that you studied for!

EXACTLY- and if you have so many more options. You wanna work in an office job? ok, but if you have your HVAC certification or whatever the plumbers license is, and times get rough? you'll possibly have a way to make some money on the side.

honestly, you'll laugh. If I could do it again, i'd go back to school for auto mechanics. I love taking shit apart and putting it back together.

[Elle]

There is nothing "wrong" with it, but it IS hard work. 50 years of manual labor is hard on the body. Trust me, I come from a long line of people who held just such jobs. It's decent, honest work, but it's hard. But that's not the issue. The issue is that it's being decided for them. They don't get the choice, mom and dad do. That's wrong.

See my last sentence:

I agree 100% with everything here. There's nothing with hard work, and those who physically labor tend to physically be stronger and healthier than office-workers who sit on their butts all day. Society as a whole needs to stop looking down on trade jobs and seeing only plush office-type jobs are being successful.

But my problem with Kendall is the same as Koala pointed out. She and her husband have decided for their son what his career path will be. If he wants to be a teacher, he can't because they won't let him. Hopefully, for his sake, what he ends up truly wanting to do is a trade. For those wanting a trade job, spending the amount of money it takes to get a college degree is often a waste (versus self-study or lower-priced online courses, ways to learn that are just as valid as spending more for a degree). But what if the career he really really wants requires college? Then he's screwed.

I'm bothered like hell by how many of the fundy parents who have degrees REFUSE to even let their kids consider careers that require a college degree. That means their medical care is going to come from teh ebil non-fundies.

[emmiedahl]

There's nothing with hard work, and those who physically labor tend to physically be stronger and healthier than office-workers who sit on their butts all day.

Probably not. They are usually the most dangerous, and people wear out their bodies quickly. Some manual labor is good for your cardiovascular health, but doing it full time is a bad thing. http://www.nber.org/digest/dec03/w9821.html

[Elle]

Probably not. They are usually the most dangerous, and people wear out their bodies quickly. Some manual labor is good for your cardiovascular health, but doing it full time is a bad thing. http://www.nber.org/digest/dec03/w9821.html

If you're talking working crab boats where it's literally non-stop every second you're on the clock, you're probably going to die young from an accident anyway. If you're talking building houses or landscaping, that's pretty damned healthy and can be done at a safer pace.

http://thehealthykey.com/?p=1077

Sitting on your butt all day sure isn't healthy.