Okay, I HAVE to say this... Toe vs Tow the Line

[thoughtful]

Don't want to get in a cat fight :D , but while I am perfectly aware of the evolution of language, substituting a completely different word in a phrase just isn't ever going to be "right." Tow and toe have two completely different definitions, and just because they're homophones, you can't replace one with the other.

On an aside: do you think fundies are allowed to learn the term "homophone," or is that defrauding?

:lol:

I feel bad for people who are misusing something, knowing that a meany might be reading and scorning them. I have to stop myself from saying something, since I know they won't take it that way, and only think of me as the meany.

Mostly, I blame English for being such a pain in the butt. For example, I almost never see anyone use these homophones correctly, but I understand how it happens:

faze - inhibit, daunt, as in "He kept right on sashaying by -- Fred Phelps' yelling didn't faze him at all."

phase - a stage of development, as in "My two-week old is going through a rebellious phase -- what size switch do the Pearls recommend for this age?"

:whistle:

[treemom]

I always assumed tow the line was actually a nautical term coming from the idea of a captain and his boat. Apparently I was wrong. But oh well! I am wrong a lot...live and learn. I always thought the toe the line people were wrong.

[DamnPrecious]

I'm paranoid about being on defraudings block list. (is there an apostrophe?)

[defrauding]

I'm paranoid about being on defraudings block list. (is there an apostrophe?)

Did someone just post something? :lol:

[JesusFightClub]

I think I'm a descriptivist when it comes to speech and a prescriptivist when it come to writing. Believe me, I do not speak the way I write. I mumble, swallow consonants, elongate vowels, use slang and screw up my syntax. In my regional dialect, we have a tendency to drop the infinitive with the verb "need." I still will occasionally say such gems as "The lawn needs mowed." But I would never drop the infinitive in my writing unless I was writing dialogue.

Honestly, I think the real issue is that people don't read. Because they don't read, they only hear sayings like "for all intents and purposes" or "toe the line" and, since we pick up all sorts of sayings without knowing their origins, they just spell them the way they sound. I mean, can anyone really defend "take it for granite?" (unless the writer has mistakenly identified Corian counter tops or something.)

THIS THIS THIS.

I've heard "The real ointment is..." (for "The fly in the ointment is...") and seen written down "I was mousseing over this" for "I was musing over this". How does anyone even MAKE that mistake? And along the same lines "pouring over this" for "poring over this".

I'm not very smart (as I've said here before my IQ is in the low eighties) but I found George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" super helpful for picking up mistakes I make. Like horribly mangled metaphors or toeing/towing type issues. He said one thing which was along the lines of "think concretely about what you've just said" and the examples he gave were "the Fascist octopus has sung its swan song" and "The jackboot should be thrown into the melting pot".

(Sorry, by the way, if I get these wrong. This is from memory.)

But if you actually think about what you're writing and the metaphors you use you know octupuses don't sing and jackboots don't add flavour to a melting pot and naw, you're just fucking it up ;)

I have *multiple* handicaps in this race, so I understand. One is I'm from Scotland so I would hear said things like "The wean's wanting fed, can ye no dae it?" not "Please feed the baby, it seems as though she's hungry." Spoken and written language part company sometimes ;) I feel like I'm writing American English online and immersed in spoken Scots offline and writing British English at work. It is fascinating but also kind of strange.

[apple1]

...I mean, can anyone really defend "take it for granite?" (unless the writer has mistakenly identified Corian counter tops or something.)...

You made me laugh with this one. :-)

[Triplet3]

I agree!! I've seen the toe/tow thing quite a lot recently, and it really irritates me. Another peeve of mine is the faze/phase misunderstanding. I know that language evolves and all that, but when two words have completely different meanings then there's no excuse for using them interchangeably.

While I'm on the subject, apostrophe catastrophe is another annoyance for me. I don't know about in the US, but here in Britain it seems like an unshakeable rule that ALL people who run fruit and vegetable market stalls absolutely HAVE to use apostrophes to denote plurals, and it drives me up the wall. I mentally sigh when I walk past a stall and see that apparently tomato's are £1.20 a lb or whatever.

[DamnPrecious]

THIS THIS THIS.

I've heard "The real ointment is..." (for "The fly in the ointment is...") and seen written down "I was mousseing over this" for "I was musing over this". How does anyone even MAKE that mistake? And along the same lines "pouring over this" for "poring over this".

I'm not very smart (as I've said here before my IQ is in the low eighties) but I found George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" super helpful for picking up mistakes I make. Like horribly mangled metaphors or toeing/towing type issues. He said one thing which was along the lines of "think concretely about what you've just said" and the examples he gave were "the Fascist octopus has sung its swan song" and "The jackboot should be thrown into the melting pot".

(Sorry, by the way, if I get these wrong. This is from memory.)

But if you actually think about what you're writing and the metaphors you use you know octupuses don't sing and jackboots don't add flavour to a melting pot and naw, you're just fucking it up ;)

I have *multiple* handicaps in this race, so I understand. One is I'm from Scotland so I would hear said things like "The wean's wanting fed, can ye no dae it?" not "Please feed the baby, it seems as though she's hungry." Spoken and written language part company sometimes ;) I feel like I'm writing American English online and immersed in spoken Scots offline and writing British English at work. It is fascinating but also kind of strange.

I went to Edinburgh this past April. If it wouldn't have been so ungodly cold, I would have started stripping anytime someone would start talking to me. SO HOT!

[VodouDoll]

I disagree. Formal language is no longer a requirement of fiction, non fiction or poetry and hasn't been since the birth of postmodernism. Read the Beats, or Kerouac or Hunter S. Thompson. All great examples. Edit: Well I would argue this began with Modernists and High Modernists, especially Stein. Everyone should read her. She truly was a genius.

I would pose, though, that you have to know the rules in order to effectively break them in the service of your theme. Otherwise you're just blundering around. If an author doesn't know how to use proper English in the first place, then she wouldn't be capable of writing prose of the caliber of the authors you've mentioned.

I don't agree that any writing where the reader can get the gist of it is proper writing. I wouldn't accept an essay from a student written in text speak because it's not proper English, even though I might be able to understand what the writer is getting at. If a student ever put LOL in an assignment or wrote the letter u in place of the word you, that's unacceptable. Just because it's possible to communicate without adhering to the rules doesn't mean the rules are pointless. Part of learning to write is learning to communicate your ideas with precision and clarity, and that's what grammar, spelling, and punctuation are for. Once an author is well-versed in these rules he can disregard them all he wants as long as he has a good reason (like the Benjy section of The Sound and the Fury, for example: no punctuation at all so it's practically impenetrable the first couple of times through, but that's how Benjy's mind works).

"Tense Present" by David Foster Wallace is an outstanding essay about tradition vs. egalitarianism in U.S. English. It's one of the best essays I've ever read, period, but also it talks a lot about this subject.

[emesbe]

How about the mute points we all keep making?

:snooty: :angry-banghead: :angry-soapbox:

[VodouDoll]

Emesbe, that phrase always makes me think of that episode of Friends: "It's a moo point. It's like a cow's opinion. It doesn't matter. It's moo." Hee!

[Charliemae]

I just do not want this board to become like others I have been on where the grammar nitpickers rule. That happens on all sorts of forums and is unpleasant for everyone except those who have appointed themselves the grammar hand-slappers.

We have a Grammar topic in "chatter", actually, so I'm not complaining that it's being discussed. I was trying to convey that I hope we do not start a new thread every time someone wants to air a grammar or spelling grievance (no offense to the OP, I'm just talking generally here). Also, in the middle of a discussion thread, hand-slapping posts to correct the grammar/spelling of other people are not necessary and frankly, pretty rude, even if the it's-its-it is thing really, really bothers you. We are all adults here and this is not 5th grade language arts class.

Yes, people should spell things correctly (spell check is a start) and re-read to make sure that their post says what they intended. But everybody makes mistakes, too.

This topic has been a fun and interesting read. I wanted to add as a self conscious poster, I am much more active in communities where you are not openly flamed for spelling and grammar. I know that the FJ community typically values views and ideas over spelling and grammar and that is one of the things I love about this place. :dance:

If you get offended because someone corrects your grammar, please don't ever try to learn a foreign language. One of the most useful things a native speaker can do is not just to accept a poorly worded sentence (because s/he "knows what I meant"), but to say, oh, did you know that the correct way to say that is xxx...? That's how we learn. I actually like to be corrected, because I don't want anyone to be able to guess that I am not a native speaker.

That said, I apologize for offending anyone, however inadvertent. Obviously, not all share my enthusiasm for languages. If I have future comments on grammar, I'll confine them to the other board.

Personally not offended by this thread or being corrected unless it is done in an offensive manner. It seems like a lot of posters her do in fact share your enthusiasm which made this an interested discussion. There is always a time and a place, a right and wrong way of approaching things. One thread about a pet peeve isn't, IMO a rude way to educate posters.

[Shoobydoo]

I disagree. Formal language is no longer a requirement of fiction, non fiction or poetry and hasn't been since the birth of postmodernism. Read the Beats, or Kerouac or Hunter S. Thompson. All great examples. Edit: Well I would argue this began with Modernists and High Modernists, especially Stein. Everyone should read her. She truly was a genius.

Well, I should elaborate. By "formal" I don't mean formal standard English where you're never allowed to use contractions in anything, I mean refraining from writing things like "It's not like he was fat or anything. He just didn't like exercise." as part of your character description. In a novel that's meant to be serious fantasy, not something with a gimmick like being written as a journal or reporter style. Or even in first person. (I actually read that once, thankfully in a self published book.) I have a very firm belief that in a writing environment your exposition should sound different than your dialogue, with the exception of certain styles of poetry, OR in the event that the writer is in fact competent. There is a massive difference between a Fear and Loathing in las Vegas and someone using questionable grammar because they don't know any better.If takes an incredible amount of skill to write like that, what I am talking about is a lack of skill resulting a different effect. There's an alarming number of people out there who couldn't describe their way out of a brown paper bag. Or, for that matter, even know what adjectives are.

Another way to put it would be that I define "formal" writing as not sprinkling every sentence with "like" or "dude" and writing plus signs instead of ands. (Can you tell growing up with American english classes has made me bitter? :roll: ) Like I said before, it's possible to make that sort of thing work, but only if the writer is skilled and already knows what they're doing. It is NOT acceptable as "this is how I write things for school because I can't be bothered to write a three letter word".

[formergothardite]

I'm sure I make all sorts of mistakes. LOL I type while doing other things and don't always proof read. If I was blogging I would try and make sure I didn't make a ton of mistakes, though. This thread reminded me of some fundie blog I was reading a couple of months ago where the post was about the kid playing in water and the mom wrote about her being "soak and wet". I am pretty sure she meant "soaking wet".

[LilMissMetaphor]

the mom wrote about her being "soak and wet". I am pretty sure she meant "soaking wet".

Oh, pish tosh, we know what she meant right???

Accuracy...precision...using the proper tools for the job...a big fat MEH to all of that! Grab that wrench, it's closer than the hammer. What's the chance your scribbled prescription for Celebrex is going to get mistaken for Celexa? Why can't we write "wah-lah" for "voila" if we want since it's not even an English word! And don't bother using spellcheck, because in ten years deffinatley will be spelled like that anyway! So who cares???? IT'S JUST A MESSAGEBOARD PEOPLE!

[Boogalou]

I would pose, though, that you have to know the rules in order to effectively break them in the service of your theme. Otherwise you're just blundering around. If an author doesn't know how to use proper English in the first place, then she wouldn't be capable of writing prose of the caliber of the authors you've mentioned.

I don't agree that any writing where the reader can get the gist of it is proper writing. I wouldn't accept an essay from a student written in text speak because it's not proper English, even though I might be able to understand what the writer is getting at. If a student ever put LOL in an assignment or wrote the letter u in place of the word you, that's unacceptable. Just because it's possible to communicate without adhering to the rules doesn't mean the rules are pointless. Part of learning to write is learning to communicate your ideas with precision and clarity, and that's what grammar, spelling, and punctuation are for. Once an author is well-versed in these rules he can disregard them all he wants as long as he has a good reason (like the Benjy section of The Sound and the Fury, for example: no punctuation at all so it's practically impenetrable the first couple of times through, but that's how Benjy's mind works).

"Tense Present" by David Foster Wallace is an outstanding essay about tradition vs. egalitarianism in U.S. English. It's one of the best essays I've ever read, period, but also it talks a lot about this subject.

I once had a TA write LOL on one of my papers. It was interesting (and kind of insulting) to say the least.

*Reads post over 1482 times for riffles*

[Kitten]

JesusFightClub, I went to uni in Glasgow, and I remember getting off the plane and asking for directions and thinking "I speak English. This man is (presumably) speaking English. AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND A SINGLE WORD HE IS SAYING."

It took me about three months(!) before I could confidently talk to anyone anywhere and be sure I would understand them. Although I'm now proud to report that after living in Glasgow AND studying Scottish literature with an ardent Scottish nationalist, there isn't a Scots brogue or a word/phrase that can defeat me. Even Irish accents are comprehensible, unless they really get going...

I miss Scotland terribly...would love to return one day.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'm a devoted Late, Late Show fan primarily because of Craig Ferguson's Scottish accent. Oh, and that naughty look he gives when he uses innuendo... *swooooon*.

And please don't anybody tell me they're offended by the fact that this is another exapmle of an intelligent woman swooning over a 'bad boy'. Mine eyes doth roll.

[Guest Anonymous]

Okay, which one of you is writing for Cracked.com? This just appeared in my FB feed 2 minutes ago, lol!

http://www.cracked.com/blog/9-words-you ... rc=fanpage

Seem's 2 be happenin evrywhere ;)

[xDreamerx]

Well, I should elaborate. By "formal" I don't mean formal standard English where you're never allowed to use contractions in anything, I mean refraining from writing things like "It's not like he was fat or anything. He just didn't like exercise." as part of your character description. In a novel that's meant to be serious fantasy, not something with a gimmick like being written as a journal or reporter style. Or even in first person. (I actually read that once, thankfully in a self published book.) I have a very firm belief that in a writing environment your exposition should sound different than your dialogue, with the exception of certain styles of poetry, OR in the event that the writer is in fact competent. There is a massive difference between a Fear and Loathing in las Vegas and someone using questionable grammar because they don't know any better.If takes an incredible amount of skill to write like that, what I am talking about is a lack of skill resulting a different effect. There's an alarming number of people out there who couldn't describe their way out of a brown paper bag. Or, for that matter, even know what adjectives are.

Another way to put it would be that I define "formal" writing as not sprinkling every sentence with "like" or "dude" and writing plus signs instead of ands. (Can you tell growing up with American english classes has made me bitter? :roll: ) Like I said before, it's possible to make that sort of thing work, but only if the writer is skilled and already knows what they're doing. It is NOT acceptable as "this is how I write things for school because I can't be bothered to write a three letter word".

Ah. That's a different kettle of fish. I agree with you where command of the langauage is concerned. It just irks me when people dismiss entire groups or movements of literature from the canon (or their radar if they are works that are not considered part of the canon) because they aren't in their personal taste. I don't particularly care for Jane Austen as most of her novels and novels of that period can be summed up in "blah blah blah, witty banter, marrige", but I do enjoy the sort of verbal tennis in her dialogue and I accept that her novels were important and valuable to literature. I wish people would extend the same curtesy and credit to books that are less pretty.

I also think the Standard dialect has it's place but if the standardizing of the language is taken too far, we could use the richness and diversity of regional speech.

[Kitten]

Bekah - thanks for the Cracked link! Just what I needed today...

OTOH, I just received an email from a software vendor hoping I would be interested in their "multi-award-winning" software that provides enterprize content management systems. Guess all those awards made them decide to change the correct spelling of "enterprise." :lol:

Yeah, um, no. This is like when I get a resume from someone hoping to be hired as an editor/writer, and it's filled with typos. Not. Gonna. Happen.

[Shoobydoo]

Ah. That's a different kettle of fish. I agree with you where command of the langauage is concerned. It just irks me when people dismiss entire groups or movements of literature from the canon (or their radar if they are works that are not considered part of the canon) because they aren't in their personal taste. I don't particularly care for Jane Austen as most of her novels and novels of that period can be summed up in "blah blah blah, witty banter, marrige", but I do enjoy the sort of verbal tennis in her dialogue and I accept that her novels were important and valuable to literature. I wish people would extend the same curtesy and credit to books that are less pretty.

I also think the Standard dialect has it's place but if the standardizing of the language is taken too far, we could use the richness and diversity of regional speech.

Yeah, I don't think I'm using the word "formal" correctly in this context, but I can't really think of a better way to put it. Competent, maybe?

[JesusFightClub]

JesusFightClub, I went to uni in Glasgow, and I remember getting off the plane and asking for directions and thinking "I speak English. This man is (presumably) speaking English. AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND A SINGLE WORD HE IS SAYING."

It took me about three months(!) before I could confidently talk to anyone anywhere and be sure I would understand them. Although I'm now proud to report that after living in Glasgow AND studying Scottish literature with an ardent Scottish nationalist, there isn't a Scots brogue or a word/phrase that can defeat me. Even Irish accents are comprehensible, unless they really get going...

I miss Scotland terribly...would love to return one day.

Kitten, we'd love to have you back! Maybe one day there will be a FJ meetup...in an independent Scotland :)

I'm guessing you were at Glasgow Uni itself. In which case you'll know Byres Road and Hillhead :) I lived just off the Byres Road for a couple of year, depending when you were there we may have met.

[JesusFightClub]

[quote="DamnPrecious

I went to Edinburgh this past April. If it wouldn't have been so ungodly cold, I would have started stripping anytime someone would start talking to me. SO HOT!

[Kitten]

JFC - Yes, I lived at Queen Margaret Hall, just behind the Botanical Gardens. They're now self-catering apartments - when I was there, they were tiny little single rooms. But walking through the gardens every day was lovely, even in the ice fogs.

You're bringing back memories - stop! I'll be lost for hours in my reveries!