The "I'm feeling hormonal today" excuse

[BelieveinScience]

I dunno, I don't mind hearing about people's periods (and have explained mine, um, graphically here.) I've got this view they shouldn't be seen as shameful and something no one talks about. That doesn't mean talk about them obsessively,but here's an example from work:

Man: Wow, I thought you were away when you picked up your bag and took it with you!

Woman: *blushing* Oh yes.

Man: I was worried!

Woman: Oh, were you? I'm sorry.

Man: Just seeing you pick up your bag...

Woman: It had, er, makeup in it.

Man: Next time you should just take it out of your bag.

Woman: ....Right. Sorry.

Of course it was tampons she had in her bag and her period had started. If she could not be so embarrassed and it was seen as normal to explain that, I think it would be a step forward.

My freshmen year college all my guy friends got a crash course females reproductive systems. One of my girl friends ended up showing them what a pad was, what it did, and how it worked. THen she pulled out a tampon and showed them how it worked, what it did, why some women like them better, etc.. She also explaineda bout all the different types of underwear there were for females. It shouldn't be such a taboo topic to talk about!

[Deleted03]

This thread makes me realise that I actually don't know as much about feminism as I should, and that ignorance is not acceptable or admirable.

I mean I know the basics, and some more obscure stuff like Cixous, but the terminology gets me terminally muddled and if you asked me to categorise myself I'd be hard put to it to do so. As a 60s child, and a 70s teenager I just accepted certain feminist positions without questioning them.

I'll do some googling, but if anyone has a 'feminist primer' or any recommended sites I'd be interested to know of them. I think that if I really followed my inclination I might be a separatist, which in some ways quite alarms me.

JFC if I'd been your friend I would have looked the bloke in the eye and said 'I'm menstruating and I needed a tampon' and smiled. Nosy little sod - what business is it of his?

What are you interested in? Something general that lists different theories? A particular topic?

[fluttershies]

Also, just a reminder that transmen may well still menstruate (not all trans people decide to have any kind of hormone treatment or surgery, and many live in places where it isn't available) and we should not assume that everyone talking about their hormones/PMS etc is a cisgendered female.

[dairyfreelife]

I kind of think this sets women back more. There are women who suffer from hormonal problems which include post partum depression, post partum psychosis, pms, and other things. I hate when women's issues are declared insignificant or fake. Some doctors do it too. This is a lesson that I learned the hard way. When I was younger and women would say that they had horrible period cramps, I'd say in my head "Oh come on, they can't be that bad." After my last child was born, my body staged a revolt and I suffered from terrible cramps. I realized how wrong I was.

I think pain is different because I hear that from many people to both genders-it's not that bad, suck it up. However, I've heard the same things of "It's not that bad" and yes, it was that bad for me. My dad would say it when I got my cycle. I'm one of the people who has cramps so bad I literally can't move and feel sick to my stomach. Strong advil/tylenol does help, but I literally took it every four hours for an entire week. Now it's down to two. I have to use heating pads, teas, yoga stretches, extra calcium and magnesium for the months to try and ease the pain. Nothing helped. I would have mild cramps randomly during the month as well. Later found out I most likely have endo. The pill helps since the pain duration is usually not more than three days and the third day is mild cramps v seven full days of pain.

I never had PMS, but I do get a little grumpy. I never said "I'm hormonal", because it tends to be more "I'm exhausted and am in horrible pain so don't mess with me right now" attitude. When you feel like shit and are in awful pain, it's not easy to be nice. It's not an excuse, but it's understandable. If men get angry and snap at someone when they aren't feeling well, I think it's the same thing. "I'm not myself today, sorry." It's okay to snap and then apologize that you were in a bad mood and shouldn't have snapped. Men and women do this. Men just don't say "I'm hormonal", but they are sometimes. Teen boys have lots of snappy behaviour that can be attributed to hormones as well. Hormones mess with you. Sickness and pain messes with you.

Will say a friend of mine, before she started the pill, was awful with PMS. She's still a little meh when it's that time, but she used to be horrible. I felt like carrying a crucifix when it was time for her cycle. It was that bad. It was her hormones and you always knew it was that time of the month. It was not just a little grumpy or irritated, it was like a pregnant woman when she becomes pregnant and her hormones change.

Some people may use it as an excuse to backpeddle their attitude, but some people probably were in a bad mood and realize what they said wasn't very nice and apologize. Bad moods aren't an excuse to be rude or mean and it's up to each person to stop and take a step back when they realize their first reaction is anger and emotional. I find it good to sometimes write a response out and then read it over. The first response tends to be harsh. Once I calm down, I can think it over better and write a better, less emotional response to people.

[Witsec1]

I know for you I must seem like a horrible feminist bashing on other feminists,

Yes. Or else someone who has taken a bunch of university courses, half digested them, and then regurgitated them as a common anti-feminist canard. Or else you are having trouble communicating what you really mean. I realize that English is your second language so you may not realize that you are taking the exact phrase anti-feminists use to criticize "liberal" feminists.

but what I've seen and experienced in a very particular setting, the "intolerance" (and here I merely stated I did not agree with liberal feminist practices) is coming from some of the feminists from the 60's and 70's now in position of power (and no they're not liberal feminist either). You will certainly not believe me, but I'm among the moderates ;)

I have no idea what you are talking about. Whose intolerance? Maybe you should not generalize your "very particular setting" until you've had some more general experience. You did not merely state you disagreed with liberal feminist practices, you accused them of wanting to be men.

Here is my post in this thread:

Men have hormones too. The myth that patriarchy supports is that men somehow aren't influenced by their biochemistry, but women are.

Or if men behave badly because of their biochemistry, it's somehow still women's fault - that is the basis of the whole modesty trap. If a man sees an alluring woman, he falls victim to lust, so it's up to women to police their behavior.

Recognizing that your hormones influence your emotions, and not letting emotions control your behavior, is being a responsible owner of a human body.

And this is yours:

Contrary to liberal feminists, I don't think women should try and be men. I think we should accept that all of us, men and women, are sometimes having behavior based on hormones fluctuation (testosterone does fluctuate during the day for men too!) I think there should be a stop to pretend that we ought to be "rational" 100% of the time like the male "ideal" dictates. We are all subjected to desires, needs, hormones that are out of the grasp of our minds.

Our positions are pretty much the same, actually, minus the gratuitous insult. I came to mine via by learning about how our brains and bodies work, you know science. That horrible "male" thing. Why did you feel the need to take a swipe at "liberal" feminists and then proceed to reinforce the assignment of rationality and logic to males? Have you heard of stereotype threat? Do you know that when girls are forced to identify themselves as female before taking achievement tests in math and science, their performance is measurably lower than when the gender question isn't asked? Your reinforcement of stereotypes actually hurts young women in measurable ways.

[camdendayton]

Disclaimer: I haven't read this whole thread. For me, it has been very helpful there is one day a month where I am very likely to go off on someone for something I wouldn't normally.

All women experience their hormonal changes differently. I know when I am active I don't feel mine as much.

[Austin]

Not everything can be taken back with just an "Oh, sorry, I had PMS". I saw a co-worker attacked viciously by another co-worker who later claimed PMS. I'm not saying she didn't have PMS, or that it's not "real" (of course it is), but some of the things this woman said were just horrible. I stepped in and said, "That's enough. She didn't do anything to you to warrant that kind of talk", and put my arm around the shoulder of the target of the attack and we walked down the hall together away from this woman.

The woman later apologized to both of us, told us she had PMS, and since the nasty wasn't directed at me, I was okay with it, but I totally got why the woman who was attacked steered clear of her for good after that. She never wanted to be alone with her and totally distrusted her.

Does me relating this incident this mean I am "anti-woman" or don't think PMS is real? Of course not. But it does not lessen responsibility and it does not mitigate consequences. I truly am sympathetic to the issue, but just as I could not go to work and castigate people during the years before my back surgery when I lived in constant, unrelenting pain, the same is true in this situation.

[Deleted03]

Yes. Or else someone who has taken a bunch of university courses, half digested them, and then regurgitated them as a common anti-feminist canard. Or else you are having trouble communicating what you really mean. I realize that English is your second language so you may not realize that you are taking the exact phrase anti-feminists use to criticize "liberal" feminists.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Whose intolerance? Maybe you should not generalize your "very particular setting" until you've had some more general experience. You did not merely state you disagreed with liberal feminist practices, you accused them of wanting to be men.

Here is my post in this thread:

And this is yours:

Our positions are pretty much the same, actually, minus the gratuitous insult. I came to mine via by learning about how our brains and bodies work, you know science. That horrible "male" thing. Why did you feel the need to take a swipe at "liberal" feminists and then proceed to reinforce the assignment of rationality and logic to males? Have you heard of stereotype threat? Do you know that when girls are forced to identify themselves as female before taking achievement tests in math and science, their performance is measurably lower than when the gender question isn't asked? Your reinforcement of stereotypes actually hurts young women in measurable ways.

WE means We human.

The male ideal as I stated repeatedly is the gendered notion that all males are rational. I'm saying it's not true and we should move away from that.

I took a swipe at liberal feminists, yes. I think their theories and approaches have been flawed. I won't stop saying it, I am not accepting all and everything a feminist says just because she's feminist. The politics of just sticking together just don't work anymore, I am not going to not disagree merely because we agree on some things. The excuse of "but you're saying the same thing as antifeminist" is also very annoying. I am not anti feminist, but I disagree with some feminists, and that's ok.

The only person I see being insulted here is me (taking a 101 class, half digested class, etc, etc) and I don't even make a big deal out of it. If you're a liberal feminist and don't agree with what I say about liberal feminists, then please explain to us what liberal feminists say rather than keep saying I don't get it.

I clarified the women want to be men several times over, what do you want? That I edit my original post and clarify it so that you can stop being stuck on that one post?

I know that when women are reminded of their gender they perfom bad, when asian women are reminded of being asian before a math test (and hence the assumption of performing well under that identity) they perform much better.

I am saying WE (as humans) should be able to recognize that rationality is BS and we are all submitted to hormones. I did not mean the WE as white lower class french females studying in the US in the North East. You assumed I meant we as women, and that was a wrong assumption.

I don't remember your original post in particular (it is a long thread) and was certainly not responding to it directly.

[JesusFightClub]

I should have said, my example from work was a woman and her manager. We don't have the same manager and I think he thought he had offended her and she had left? I don't know, an embarrassing situation all round.

RE people with PMT, I get it badly and if I behave like an arse (and I do) I have to make amends. As Austin says, it's not a get out of jail card for bad behaviour.

I am not spiteful but I am grumpy, weepy and in a fair bit of pain. Not being the pleasantest of people to deal with, the onus is on me to explain and apologise, not on everyone else to put up with it.

[Witsec1]

Er, did you read my original post, and then the part that said we basically agree? I agree that men and women are both influenced by hormones/emotions. I understood perfectly well that "we" meant human.

I don't agree that rationality, en toto, is "BS" and I strongly disagree that we should collude in the fallacy that it is "male".

Them's my colors. I'm done arguing the point.

ETA: I did read your posts, and if you ever said that " ____ feminists want to be men" was a bad choice of words, I missed it. You clarified you meant that it didn't mean a sex change, which, yeah, I don't think the anti-feminists who use it mean that either.

[BelieveinScience]

Not everything can be taken back with just an "Oh, sorry, I had PMS". I saw a co-worker attacked viciously by another co-worker who later claimed PMS. I'm not saying she didn't have PMS, or that it's not "real" (of course it is), but some of the things this woman said were just horrible. I stepped in and said, "That's enough. She didn't do anything to you to warrant that kind of talk", and put my arm around the shoulder of the target of the attack and we walked down the hall together away from this woman.

The woman later apologized to both of us, told us she had PMS, and since the nasty wasn't directed at me, I was okay with it, but I totally got why the woman who was attacked steered clear of her for good after that. She never wanted to be alone with her and totally distrusted her.

Does me relating this incident this mean I am "anti-woman" or don't think PMS is real? Of course not. But it does not lessen responsibility and it does not mitigate consequences. I truly am sympathetic to the issue, but just as I could not go to work and castigate people during the years before my back surgery when I lived in constant, unrelenting pain, the same is true in this situation.

I don't think things like "I have PMS" should be used as an excuse in the work place. If you can't handle being there without going off on someone you should stay home or if you feel it coming on you should isolate yourself (if at all possible) from everyone for that day. But then again I was the worker who if I knew I was about to go off at someone I left the situation, or I told my boss I felt awful and asked to go home so what do I know.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I don't agree that rationality, en toto, is "BS" and I strongly disagree that we should collude in the fallacy that it is "male".

I don't think that's exactly what Sophie was getting at. I don't really know, natch, but I thought she was more arguing that rationality is valued over emotionality because rationality is coded as masculine, and we need to question why we value these 'masculine' coded traits, and overvalue them. Not that rationality is actually the domain of men or masculinity or anything so binarist. Just spitballing really though

[JesusFightClub]

While I am at it, example of my ridiculous PMT:

I saw a fire engine coming down the street with sirens on and started crying. Because firefighters are so brave and what if there was a wean or a cat or dog in the house they were away to? If someone had come along at that moment and went "Oi, JFC, give us your entire paycheque for the FBU [firefighters' union]" I would have done it. I was literally sat weeping at the side of the road. :D

[Shirley MacLaine]

While I am at it, example of my ridiculous PMT:

I saw a fire engine coming down the street with sirens on and started crying. Because firefighters are so brave and what if there was a wean or a cat or dog in the house they were away to? If someone had come along at that moment and went "Oi, JFC, give us your entire paycheque for the FBU [firefighters' union]" I would have done it. I was literally sat weeping at the side of the road. :D

Kindred spirits! Friday night I was super drunk at the bus stop and I started crying over a lost cat poster, because it said FAT in bold and underline in the description and mentioned the cat is 'probably scared or hiding.' And I just got so sad thinking about this poor lost adorable chubby cat.

[Deleted03]

I don't think that's exactly what Sophie was getting at. I don't really know, natch, but I thought she was more arguing that rationality is valued over emotionality because rationality is coded as masculine, and we need to question why we value these 'masculine' coded traits, and overvalue them. Not that rationality is actually the domain of men or masculinity or anything so binarist. Just spitballing really though

well my feelings about rationality are quite more complex, but no I'm not saying it's male hence bad or that only men can experience it.