Are Fundies really happy?

[luv2laugh]

Are they really happy? Do you think that people that are in fundie marriages are genuinely happy? The ones that follow Gothard principles? It's hard to tell because they have been indoctrinated to paint the face of joy on them at all times... For instance, if you look at Smuggar & Anna, they were practically glowing when they first met each other. Now that has faded a little bit. I don't know if the honeymoon phase has ended or if they are actually unhappy in their marrige. I wonder what a miserable fundie marriage would actually look like...? Probably no different than a "typical" happy marriage since they are told to be happy at all times and no one would know the difference. I wonder if some of them actually resent each other secretly, live as roommates, and then go out in the public and pretend they're on stage so that no one notices anything is wrong.

[Mud]

It is so hard to figure out these kinds of things, because first we'd have to define 'happy'. And that means different things for different people.

Some people find satisfaction in suffering ... some folks get off by experiencing pain. It is seldom straightforward.

If someone thinks they are happy, and truly believes it, does that mean they are happy? Even if they're in a situation that wouldn't make most people happy?

I don't have any easy answers. My own definition of happiness has changed so much over the years, and it makes me hesitant to evaluate others and what happiness might mean for them. But I do think a lot of people probably put on happy fronts because of ideals like 'keeping sweet'. Sometimes secular folks do this kind of thing for non-religious reasons, such as plastering on a happy grin if you are a retail worker and must act cheerful for customers.

[Ja Rule]

Yes, I think happiness as defined by you is different than what I consider to be happiness, and that probably also applies to fundies. I think it's relatively easy for many fundies to feel "happy" and content if they have been raised in a bubble with very little exposure to any other definitions of happiness. When you grow up with a certain norm, it becomes difficult to even comprehend that others might live differently, or even be happy living that way. However, I think those fundies with connections to the outside world (using the internet, tv shows, etc) eventually start to see that others are not living the evil lives they've been preached to about all their lives, and that they're relatively content with their lives. This probably causes them to start questioning their own ideas of a happy life, if that makes sense.

[JesusFightClub]

As a variant of fundy myself, I would say yes, they sometimes are.

A thing which makes one able to endure a LOT is the certainty you are right. That's what older fundies are shepherding the young ones towards. If you can ever tell yourself you're putting up with something or doing something for the Cause (whatever that may be) it turns the bitter sweet. You feel happy and proud. But you have to learn that mindset - it doesn't come naturally to most.

So the younger fundies show a variety of small ways of rebellion or dissatisfaction with their lot in life. They haven't got the knack yet. As they get older and more trained, they become either beaten down, arrogant, or genuinely happy.

[Mud]

As a variant of fundy myself, I would say yes, they sometimes are.

A thing which makes one able to endure a LOT is the certainty you are right. That's what older fundies are shepherding the young ones towards. If you can ever tell yourself you're putting up with something or doing something for the Cause (whatever that may be) it turns the bitter sweet. You feel happy and proud. But you have to learn that mindset - it doesn't come naturally to most.

So the younger fundies show a variety of small ways of rebellion or dissatisfaction with their lot in life. They haven't got the knack yet. As they get older and more trained, they become either beaten down, arrogant, or genuinely happy.

I like this insight. And I would tend to agree with this. There are ways of training or disciplining one's mind, or one's consciousness if you will. This is, in my opinion, how many ascetic people find 'happiness' in a lifestyle that would seem terribly oppressive to many of us in the mainstream world.

There's also the point, made earlier by Ja Rule, that much has to do with what one is exposed to. Hence the many people in third world countries who might live in impoverished conditions, yet (in many cases) still attain some level of personal satisfaction.

I don't think it's up to me to judge whether or not someone 'should' be happy in any given condition. But it can be good to see the various options available, if possible, so that one can make an informed decision. In my life I equate this to my first marriage. I was relatively happy for some years with my first husband. But looking back, I realize that I had 'settled'. When I became aware that someone much more suitable for me was out there, I realized that I could be much happier if I sought out something different for myself.

Happiness is a complicated subject, and so much of it is relative. I think what's important is that individuals should be encouraged to find their own definition of happiness, whatever that may be. It is sad when young girls or other people are forced into a lifestyle or not allowed to explore anything other than what their parents might enjoy.

[Spider Burps]

Sorry for not adding anything real to this thread, but...

There's also the point, made earlier by Ja Rule, that much has to do with what one is exposed to.

I thought you were actually quoting Ja Rule the rapper and I thought, "Man, he's a lot more philosophical than I figured he would be. Wonder when he said that?" Then I scrolled up and realized you were actually referring to a poster. Color me disappointed! :lol:

[Third]

I think it's as possible as anyone else. To find happiness to truly be happy, content etc even the women. Maybe ignorance is bliss but I don't think ALL fundies even the women are unhappy.

[smores]

I am currently arguing with one on another board. She is happy with her 2 kids (one on the way), getting her college degree after she dropped out to get married and have kids, and living in what I would consider not a very nice place. She views the world through her naive, simplistic views so she cannot see how others could be unhappy; why, if they just lived the life that she did, they would be! This same person will one day hold a degree in counseling others.

Yes, I think she's happy. Ignorance is bliss for her.

ETA: She was brought up with the idea that gender differences mean that she is more fit for, say, raising kids and her husband is more fit for working all day. Thus, she can't be unhappy with the life that God gave her - she was meant for it as a woman.

[Tempehst]

No. Next question!

Oh, I should elaborate? Happy people don't usually go around radically changing their lives and adhering to strangely strict and unforgiving beliefs, even if they are secular. Like I know this one guy who is areligious, but ended up going on a raw foods diet (several times), breaking off his engagement, selling his house and eventually mots of his possessions and is now trying to get his belongings down to under 100 things. It's not religion, but it's fairly obvious he's unhappy with the direction his life is going in and he's trying to change it and find happiness somewhere. I think a lot of people who are fundies are the same way.

Maybe not so true to the people raised that way and don't know anything different, but unless you're living in a closed community with no contact with the outside world, you're going to know your lifestyle is the exception and abnormal.

Happiness is a complicated subject, and so much of it is relative. I think what's important is that individuals should be encouraged to find their own definition of happiness, whatever that may be. It is sad when young girls or other people are forced into a lifestyle or not allowed to explore anything other than what their parents might enjoy.

This. Some people might actually be happy sitting in a pile of laundry and crying while continuously popping out kids. But I know I'm not!

[freejoytoo]

Depends on how you define happy.

IMO, they concentrate on appearing happy so much that they refuse to acknowledge any negative emotions, but underneath the cheerful exterior they are very stressed and putting themselves under a lot of pressure to do the Lord's work. God is supposedly perfection and striving to perfection is futile and useless because no one can be perfect. Everyday Christians (and members of other religions) don't focus on it constantly, or at least not as much, but fundies make it their goal to think about God every minute of every day. I expect many are on the verge of a breakdown, especially with the sexual repression as well.

[margiebargie]

Well...fundie-ism really isn't about happiness in my opinion. It's more about avoidance. Most fundies strike me as very frightened, confused people looking for a life preserver to cling to. They latch onto leaders (pastors, authors, bloggers, Michael Pearl) who say things they find comforting.

As disgusting as most of us find Michael Pearl, there are people who swear by his methods. I think these people are lost and don't know what to do. They are afraid their kids are going to get off track. So they follow Michael Pearl's formulaic advice. It's comforting. Take action A, get result B. But if action A doesn't work, they do more of action A and more, and more, and more - still insisting that one day they will be successfull.

Me, I'm an atheist. I've accepted a few things about the world. Life is not fair - you can do everything "right" and life might still hit you in the face with a dead fish. There's a lot I can't control, but if I concentrate on what I can control it can make a huge difference in my tiny, little life. Formulas don't work. You have to roll with the punches and do your best. When things are good, I'm happy. When they're not, I'm unhappy and I do my best to change my circumstances.

I don't think fundies have the luxury of changing the things that make them unhappy. So when they're not genuinely happy, they just pretend to be because they've already gone around boasting about how happy they are.

[JesusFightClub]

An example of what I mean.

I worked in a job where I was getting a very low wage but a LOT of overtime. I mean a LOT. It was paying most of my bills and for fun stuff too.

The union called a work to rule. I voted for it.

I lost my bill paying and fun stuff ability in a stroke. I was struggling to pay bills and I was continually harassed by my managers for refusing to take overtime. On one level I was absolutely miserable. I was getting deep in debt, counting ten pences to see if I could buy food and getting called in by the bosses daily to answer as to why I wouldn't work the time any more. It was shit.

On another level I was happy. I knew now I wasn't a scab and never would be. I had worried if I faced a big test, like losing that amount of money, could I do it? When it happened, I didn't even have a debate internally. I was so happy I was tested and didn't fail.

I think this is how fundies feel sat in the laundry room surrounded by kiddies. "This is a test. I am passing the test. I'm sad that this is so tough but I am happy too because I am helping the cause".

[Tempehst]

An example of what I mean.

I worked in a job where I was getting a very low wage but a LOT of overtime. I mean a LOT. It was paying most of my bills and for fun stuff too.

The union called a work to rule. I voted for it.

I lost my bill paying and fun stuff ability in a stroke. I was struggling to pay bills and I was continually harassed by my managers for refusing to take overtime. On one level I was absolutely miserable. I was getting deep in debt, counting ten pences to see if I could buy food and getting called in by the bosses daily to answer as to why I wouldn't work the time any more. It was shit.

On another level I was happy. I knew now I wasn't a scab and never would be. I had worried if I faced a big test, like losing that amount of money, could I do it? When it happened, I didn't even have a debate internally. I was so happy I was tested and didn't fail.

I think this is how fundies feel sat in the laundry room surrounded by kiddies. "This is a test. I am passing the test. I'm sad that this is so tough but I am happy too because I am helping the cause".

I find it a little disturbing to see a comparison between fundamentalist religion and labor unions, but I guess it works. Needing to belong to a cause greater than yourself does seem to be a universal need in some ways. Everyone wants to feel they belong and maybe it can lead to happiness, but after a point it's less than healthy when you have to reject parts of yourself or live below the poverty line without water or electricity.

I imagine that if the strike thing had gone on with you and your labor union, you would have become a scab before you would have starved to death or something, you know?

[Anise]

In my opinion, happiness for fundies is rather limited. For them, there is holiness in asceticism; their happiness must come from their religious life only- happiness in church, happiness in quoting scripture, happiness in appearing holy, etc. Sex really isn't there for pleasure, but must be for procreation and/or preventing temptation for the husband. Trips are never to see more of the world and for enjoyment, but for short-term missions. Food is not for the pleasure of eating (notice how few fundies are truly foodies). Wine, dancing, non-religious music are all in the grey areas, and the more fundie a person is, the more likely she/he is to abstain from them.

[margiebargie]

I find it a little disturbing to see a comparison between fundamentalist religion and labor unions, but I guess it works. Needing to belong to a cause greater than yourself does seem to be a universal need in some ways. Everyone wants to feel they belong and maybe it can lead to happiness, but after a point it's less than healthy when you have to reject parts of yourself or live below the poverty line without water or electricity.

I imagine that if the strike thing had gone on with you and your labor union, you would have become a scab before you would have starved to death or something, you know?

I think the comparison works in the sense that unionists and fundies are sacrificing for a greater cause, and are motivated by that. It falls apart when you consider that the sacrifice of a striking union member actually has a demonstrable, straightforward relationship to improving conditions for him/her and other workers. The sacrifice of a fundie goes nowhere and accomplishes nothing. There's just a floaty idea that they are doing the right thing in the eyes of a silent, invisible being, and will be rewarded for it after they die. It's sad and pointless to sacrifice so much for such a vague, unsupportable outcome. Some of them do an awful lot damage* to the world while they're at it, too, which makes the whole thing even worse.

*Thinking of hatred of gays, oppression of women, child abuse, and general exploitation of the gullible.

[Austin]

In the evangelical world, in my experience, happiness, per se, isn't valued. I was always taught that we were to have joy and that it was a choice to be joyful. Happiness is neither here nor there in that mindset. The idea that many people hold that everybody deserves to seek happiness is anathema to them.

[JesusFightClub]

No. I knew I would be shit at explaining what I mean. It doesn't matter what the cause is. It's stuff you can't do.

If I did starve, I would have to. I can't scab.

But what I am trying clumsily to explain is that fundies have a similar thing. They have a clear choice, like I did. It was clear for them, as it was for me. The fact of making the clear choice makes you happy.

JFC (wishing she was more eloquent)

[Avalondaughter]

I guess it depends on what people consider happy.

Instead of..

... having to go to college, get buried under a mountain of student loan debt, find a low-paying entry-level job, struggling to support yourself and pay off not just that student loan debt, but any debt you get into because you sometimes find yourself short of cash, date constantly but don't find Mr. Wright right away, worry about your biological clock ticking, finally getting married and having kids at a high risk age, and then never have the time to spend with them because you still have to work, and wondering if your husband is faithful to you while he hangs out with his "work spouse" all day, the scary possibility of divorce and single parenthood...

You get...

A husband who is required to pay the bills, no need for struggling though college or working, children as soon as they come, all day long to spend with those children, a husband whose faith commands him to be faithful to you and stay with you forever, who always tells you he loves you, and the security of knowing you are going to Heaven when you die.

Probably any time a fundie woman feels happy in her marriage, she contemplate how much better her life is than a woman stuck in the first option. If she grew up in a broken miserable home, a fundie marriage might seem like paradise - at least for a while. If she grew up in a fundie home, then she doesn't know any better and believes she has the best life possible because she's been told.

[fluttershies]

I think like JFC says, when you have such a stark choice between what's good and what's bad, it's much easier to be happy. There's a lot of security in such a black-and-white position.

[Kaylee]

I think some people are really happy, but a lot of people do feel pressured to appear happier than they are and feeling forced to do that can make you less happy than you'd be if you were allowed to vent and be real with people instead of feeling like you have to conform. It's not only fundie thing, more of a people-pleaser thing, but a lot of people within fundamentalism do equate pleasing others and keeping up appearances with spirituality. Even with marriage, I'm sure there are people who feel trapped in unhappy marriages due to religion, but I also know a lot of non-fundie and non-religious people who feel the same way and are trapped because of "the kids", economic factors, or being more scared to change than to stay unhappy in a familiar environment.

I know several people who were miserable as fundamentalists, but seem much happier now that they are no longer fundie, or are less fundie. Most of them were the type that were very concerned with standards and rules and with trying to get everyone else to live by their standards. The ones that are more focused on living their convictions themselves instead of what everyone else is doing, seem to usually be more happy, and I've known many people within fundamentalism who I believe are genuinely happy. I've also found it's easy to assume someone is not happy because I wouldn't be happy in their situation, when they really may be (one person in particular comes to mind - I was all "oh that poor women, I feel sorry for her having to live like that", then come to find out she's very happy with it and probably happier than I am, all things considered).

To touch on what JFC said, there is also this idea that when you believe you're part of a greater cause or purpose. The feeling like you're doing what's right in the face of adversity or persecution can give you a sort of happiness, especially when you also think you're getting a heavenly reward for it. There really are a lot of similarities between religious and political fundamentalism and the "true believers" or hardcore advocates of groups in both.

On the thought that happy people don't usually go around radically changing their lives and adhering to strangely strict and unforgiving beliefs, that can be true but some people move into fundamentalism slowly rather than embracing it all at once so it doesn't seem so radical to them. Also, there are people who feel happier and more comfortable with some sort of rigid structure in their life and fundamentalism provides that unless/until they become disillusioned with it. Then, to be happy again, they'll either come back to it or embrace a different type of fundamentalism - this is why you see some people move from one extreme group or belief to another - the structure and extremism is the one thing they constantly seek. (I think Brandy may fall into this some, I definitely did and possibly still do, and a secular example would be a friend of mine who has moved from being a neo-Nazi to a militant antiracist to a radical environmentalist to a pretty extreme homebith-and-everything else type).

[freejoytoo]

They like that they have a formula for life. If you don't have a clear plan life can be frightening (and, as someone pointed out above, full of debt!) Fundies put themselves in a bubble and feel safer with their 'godly plan' (though I think they must feel doubt).