Mormons and motherhood

[YPestis]

I realized this hasn't been talked about so I wanted to start a discussion here.

 

We've focused mostly on fundies of the Protestant variety. However, we rarely talk about conservative Mormonism. Mormons are certainly more conservative and are well known for their opposition to gay rights. The polygamist fundies aside, the mainstream Mormon fundies like to label themselves as family oriented and wholesome. Who doesn't know the Mormon stereotype of a wholesome, young, large family?

 

However, I've also heard grumblings that the Church, because of it's focus on family, tends to shunt young girls into motherhood over career. They prefer to say that they hold motherhood to such high esteem that many young girls choose it. However, I feel something else is at work.

 

While I was interviewing for med school, I met up with several Mormon students. They were all invariable clean cut, polite, well dressed MEN. I did not meet a single Mormon female premed. All the females were wives of the male interviewees. Something seemed off to me but I never questioned that anomaly.

 

Fast forward years later, I come upon this article that talks about being female and premed at Brigham Young University, a school that is 98% Mormon. She talks about being the only female in every upper level science course, the only female premed in her study session, the only female applying to med school:

http://sierrapearl.blogspot.com/2011/10 ... t-byu.html

 

It just seems odd that given a nation with a 50/50 parity of med students, one school would produce 95/5 ratio of male/female med student pop. The Mormon church can talk about glorifying motherhood but they are no better than some of the fundies who thinks a woman's place is at home. The Mormon church are similar to fundies when they tell their daughters their "god given" place is motherhood and wife-dom and leave the career thing to the men.

 

There are various types of Mormons and I'm sure plenty of Mormons encourage their daughters to do whatever they want. However, the more conservative wing of the religion appears to be no better at treating females than the fundies we talk about here. Sure, the Mormon church officially encourage girls to have an education, but it's not healthy to tell girlsthey can achieve only until they start having children. That they should stay home and be good mothers and let the men worry about the career. I don't care that Mormon church talk about prioritizing families. All patriarchal and traditionalists talk about preserving families. But they do so on the backs of girls and women who may want to do something different.

 

Comments? Experiences?

[deelaem]

I have a sister who is Mormon and she has 2 grown daughters. Both of her daughters are college-educated (at BYU) and very, very bright. They both have their degrees. But like most Mormon girls, they have a double degree, a B.A. and an Mrs.

For them, going to BYU meant getting a Bachelor's "just in case" your husband dies and you have to work. But your real goal for going there was to snag yourself a returned missionary and marry him. One of my nieces married before she graduated. The other one had my sister quite worried because she actually worked for several years before (giving in) getting married. Happily, she now stays home and is a good little wife and mommy, too.

The programming for Mormon girls is deeply insidious and all-pervasive. It's the rare one indeed that can defy and carve out a life just for herself.

[2xx1xy1JD]

It's been mentioned in connection with the Bathroom Baby, since That Wife was clearly more suited to having a career than being a stay-at-home mom. Bathroom Baby would have been far better off as well in a high-quality daycare, than he is being penned up and ignored all day while mom's busy on the computer, cooking or cleaning.

How do Mormons support larger families on a single income? Is it that much cheaper in Utah?

[freejoytoo]

Didn't some Mormon prophet tell girls it was better to die 'with virtue' than live without it?

I knew a girl at school who was raised Mormon. She hated it. She said there lots of double standard for the boys and girls, especially regarding modesty - it was fine for the boys to wear tank tops but they were told off if their sleeves were too short. She went to please her mother and then left the church when she was about sixteen and said she was an atheist.

I've read some shocking stories on exmormon.org. I know those experiences aren't all-encompassing but from what I gathered their teach that when you die and if you've 'been good' you get to rule a planet - but only if you're a guy. Women get to help with it and their spiritual husband can have extra wives up there. They get secret names in Temple and the man gets to hear the woman's but she can't know his.

I hate their 'family' stuff. What they really mean when they say 'family' is a married couple with two point children. A gay couple isn't a family to them and puts theirs 'under threat' :roll:

I honestly don't know how anyone can take Mormonism seriously. Don't they believe Jesus came to America and God hangs out on Planet Kolob?

[lilwriter85]

My uncle was married to a woman who is ex Mormon. Most of the her mom's side of the family is still Mormon. She said that some of her female Mormon relatives have jobs and others are SAHM's, but overall they are ok with some of the female relatives having careers. My aunt told me that some Mormons aren't extremely conservative and some will have small families.

There is one blog that i'm following now. The blogger is a single Mormon woman who is severely disabled and unmarried. Before she became disabled she was in nursing school. She said that she originally wanted to have nursing career for awhile and her plan was to stop working once she had kids. She became disabled at 19. This blogger's mom was always a SAHM but her mom has a college degree and at one point was getting a master's degree in pastoral care. This blogger has six sisters, the younger two are adopted. Five of them are married and SAHM's. One sister is about to have her sixth child. Some of them have college educations and worked before getting married. The youngest sister is engaged and works. This blogger has never directly discussed the topic of working moms, but she has emphasized a few times that she and her family really value women staying home with their families. This blogger and her family do label themselves as wholesome and very family oriented. They are mostly friends with people from their congregations. The blogger only has a few non Mormon friends right now. She had a lot of non-Mormon friends as a kid and teenager because she attended public school. She has mentioned that a lot of her high school friends came from small families with two incomes. She does have a a bit smug attitude towards small families. The blogger and her family seem like nice people but they are pompous about themselves at times. I can't really see them being ok with one of their daughters/sisters having a job while dealing with kids.

[freejoytoo]

I'm really fascinated with this blog. Some of the stuff is just fun to read and there's other stuff which is slightly mind boggling. Someone commented that they'd rather their child was a good Mormon than a happy person. They disagree on modesty rules.

http://mormonmommywars.com/

ETA: This is the 'good mormon' post:

http://www.mormonmommywars.com/?p=2520

[lilwriter85]

Didn't some Mormon prophet tell girls it was better to die 'with virtue' than live without it?

I knew a girl at school who was raised Mormon. She hated it. She said there lots of double standard for the boys and girls, especially regarding modesty - it was fine for the boys to wear tank tops but they were told off if their sleeves were too short. She went to please her mother and then left the church when she was about sixteen and said she was an atheist.

I've read some shocking stories on exmormon.org. I know those experiences aren't all-encompassing but from what I gathered their teach that when you die and if you've 'been good' you get to rule a planet - but only if you're a guy. Women get to help with it and their spiritual husband can have extra wives up there. They get secret names in Temple and the man gets to hear the woman's but she can't know his.

I hate their 'family' stuff. What they really mean when they say 'family' is a married couple with two point children. A gay couple isn't a family to them and puts theirs 'under threat' :roll:

I honestly don't know how anyone can take Mormonism seriously. Don't they believe Jesus came to America and God hangs out on Planet Kolob?

I have heard bout those beliefs and I kind of remember hearing somewhere that they believe humans and angels had kids together.

[freejoytoo]

I heard they believe God had physical sex with Mary, or rather, a prophet said it once and now they're pretending he didn't.

[tropaka]

"better to die with virtue than to live without it" - haven't heard that in terms of Mormonism, but in Catholicism there was a young girl who was sainted because she defended herself against rape or something - so protecting virginity is more important than protecting your life....can't remember which saint.....

"I honestly don't know how anyone can take Mormonism seriously". If you approach any religion as if you've never heard of it before, almost all of them are hard to take seriously.

Of the mormon girls I knew in high school, they all went through for teaching, about half of them quit when they had children.

[Daenerys]

"better to die with virtue than to live without it" - haven't heard that in terms of Mormonism, but in Catholicism there was a young girl who was sainted because she defended herself against rape or something - so protecting virginity is more important than protecting your life....can't remember which saint.....

"I honestly don't know how anyone can take Mormonism seriously". If you approach any religion as if you've never heard of it before, almost all of them are hard to take seriously.

Of the mormon girls I knew in high school, they all went through for teaching, about half of them quit when they had children.

There's definitely more than one saint who was canonised for that (I think there's one really ancient one who was watching sheep at the time?) but this is one example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Goretti

[Katiedarling]

I've long thought that with their fancy ad campaigns, PR, and wholesome looking mommy blogs that the LDS church has gotten a free pass in this country to the extent that their doctrines are extremely out there, especially where women are concerned. A huge part of that is that so much of their doctrine is secretive (they say "sacred, not secret" but let's be real). The current President of the Twelve Apostles, Boyd K Packer said "The most important thing for a woman in this life is to be the wife of a worthy priesthood holder and the mother of his children."

Let me restate that-

"The most important thing for a woman in this life is to be the wife of a worthy priesthood holder and the mother of his children."

:shock:

This wasn't said in 1805, this was said on February 11, 2012. It was said by the President of the Twelve Apostles of the LDS Church.

How do Mormons support larger families on a single income? Is it that much cheaper in Utah?

The cost of living in Utah is definitely cheaper compared to coastal metropolitan areas (median housing price in Seattle is ~$304k, while it's $189k in Salt Lake City) and they didn't suffer nearly as badly in the Great Recession as many other states. Their housing market largely rode out the bubble. Rent is extremely cheap in most parts of the state and Mormons are taught to make do with less in order to allow a mother to stay at home with the children. Many Utah members struggle financially and are trapped by debt, but are pressured to make it work one way or another. That combined with Utah's decent median income and cost of living allows for many mothers to stay home with their children.

[freejoytoo]

Here are some quotes on virtue:

"Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. Do not tamper with sin . . . do not permit yourselves to be led into temptation.â€â€“President David O. McKay, quoted in THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball

“Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.â€

–Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness.

"There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity — realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.â€â€“Heber J. Grant, quoted in The Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball

"Better dead clean, than alive unclean. Many is the faithful Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction, 'I would rather have you come back home in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it'"

- Mormon Doctrine, Second Edition, Page 124

Most world religions are vague enough not to be completely disproven. Most of what is written in the BoM does not match up with archeological records and didn't Joseph Smith read it out of a hat with the help of a stone?!

How about the fact that they say prophets are never wrong and then conveniently forget that Brigham Young said there were men living on the moon dressed like Quakers?

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon008.htm

http://www.lds-mormon.com/moon.shtml

Joseph Smith also enjoyed taking extra wives, some as young as fourteen and then when his wife complained about it he told her an angel had commanded him to do it :roll: I don't think the church tells their members that. Weren't black men not allowed the priesthood until 1978? What was that about?

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/home.htm

I know the church doesn't accept polygamy now but why was it okay for Joseph Smith to do it if he was supposedly getting commands from God?

Sorry, but to me it all seems to be based on someone who wanted people to worship him and America. I also don't know why people buy into something which tells them to wear special underwear and learn a secret handshake for when they meet God.

[Third]

The only strict Mormon I know needs help. She got married young because she was supposed to. Had a kid because she was supposed to. Is a SAHM because she's supposed to. She hates it. She will make FB updates that her child is possessed, that he hates her, that she hates him for destroying her body, that he's a freak etc etc really awful things. When she was pregnant she considered giving her baby to a childless [not choice] friend because she didn't really want her son. A friend and I have encouraged her to get help [thinking PPD] but she says she's perfectly normal. Mormons are immune to PPD.

The belief she has no value until she became a mother seems to not have taken into account she didn't want children.

Yet the type of Mormons the Sister Wives are - they seem normal. They are encouraging their children to go to school, pick their own faith etc.

[lilwriter85]

I have heard about Utah being a cheap state to live in. My uncle's ex's family lived mostly in Southern California near San Diego, I think the high cost of living was the reason they were ok with some of the women in the family having jobs. Outside of Utah, I think Mormons would try to live in states with low costs of living. The blogger I discussed in a previous thread lives in Missouri and I don't know about the cost of living there.

Like Katiedarling said, Mormons make do with less. The blogger from my previous post mentioned that on her blog. She talked about how she and her siblings had less gadgets while growing up. They rarely went to the movies or on vacations. A friend of mine lived in Utah when her husband was stationed there for the Air Force. She worked for a doctor's office and the Mormons she encountered while working there, told her about shopping at thrift stores and that there kids didn't have stuff like iPods, video game consoles, laptops etc.

[Jessica]

Boyd K Packer is... well there are no words for him. I'll just say he's definitely not my favorite person.

And oh yeah, PPD. If you're LDS and get PPD you're just too selfish to understand the importance of motherhood. A few years ago a woman in my ward had PPD. You know what help she received from the church? Her home teachers brought over an article from the Ensign about the importance of mothers and offered an empty "We'll pray for you". Good job, guys...

[Third]

I nearly flipped my lid when a mother on a message board I was put into the hospital for a nervous breakdown [resulting from under treated PPD because she couldn't stop nursing for medication etc] and the conservative Christian women were wanting to make sure her husband brought the toddler to her to nurse several times a day, how many times a day would she pump better not let going crazy keep you from your womanly duty to breed and nurse. Makes me want to scream.

[emesbe]

There are various types of Mormons and I'm sure plenty of Mormons encourage their daughters to do whatever they want. However, the more conservative wing of the religion appears to be no better at treating females than the fundies we talk about here. Sure, the Mormon church officially encourage girls to have an education, but it's not healthy to tell girlsthey can achieve only until they start having children. That they should stay home and be good mothers and let the men worry about the career. I don't care that Mormon church talk about prioritizing families. All patriarchal and traditionalists talk about preserving families. But they do so on the backs of girls and women who may want to do something different.

Comments? Experiences?

Unfortunately, this is all too often the case. Of course, there are exceptions (my sister in law, and sister, who both hold advanced degrees). And then there's me, who made a big mistake by quitting school (I rationalized it by saying we could only afford for one of us to go to school). My independence has been hampered because of it. But, I am currently in my senior capstone class. YAY me!

I've told my daughter, who is almost 15, that she must be able to support herself and any children. I don't care what it is, if she wants to go to hair school, or traditional college, or what. I don't want her to find herself in my situation, as a displaced homemaker pretty much surviving on the good will of my scumbag exhusband.

[Seven Severn]

Didn't some Mormon prophet tell girls it was better to die 'with virtue' than live without it?

I knew a girl at school who was raised Mormon. She hated it. She said there lots of double standard for the boys and girls, especially regarding modesty - it was fine for the boys to wear tank tops but they were told off if their sleeves were too short. She went to please her mother and then left the church when she was about sixteen and said she was an atheist.

I've read some shocking stories on exmormon.org. I know those experiences aren't all-encompassing but from what I gathered their teach that when you die and if you've 'been good' you get to rule a planet - but only if you're a guy. Women get to help with it and their spiritual husband can have extra wives up there. They get secret names in Temple and the man gets to hear the woman's but she can't know his.

I hate their 'family' stuff. What they really mean when they say 'family' is a married couple with two point children. A gay couple isn't a family to them and puts theirs 'under threat' :roll:

I honestly don't know how anyone can take Mormonism seriously. Don't they believe Jesus came to America and God hangs out on Planet Kolob?

exmormon.org has been around since about '96 and is the main clearing house for exmos and Mormons wanting to leave Mormonism. I (a nevermo) have been hanging around since '98. When I first found the place I'd spend days crying reading the stories of those who left. The Church™ is very paranoid about exmormon.org as it's been the catalyst for countless numbers of people leaving. Rest assured, what you read on there is true. The institutionalized abuse is rampant and most don't bat an eye.

[ZTwist]

I think there are all kinds of Mormons, just like any other religion. My daughter was accepted into two PhD programs at BYU and her mother-in-law has often worked outside her home.

[margiebargie]

Unfortunately, this is all too often the case. Of course, there are exceptions (my sister in law, and sister, who both hold advanced degrees). And then there's me, who made a big mistake by quitting school (I rationalized it by saying we could only afford for one of us to go to school). My independence has been hampered because of it. But, I am currently in my senior capstone class. YAY me!

I've told my daughter, who is almost 15, that she must be able to support herself and any children. I don't care what it is, if she wants to go to hair school, or traditional college, or what. I don't want her to find herself in my situation, as a displaced homemaker pretty much surviving on the good will of my scumbag exhusband.

Good luck in school, and good for you for going back. Surviving on the good will of anybody is no way to live - never mind a scumbag exhusband. I saw that you used the phrase "senior capstone class". May I ask what you're studying?

[EmmieJ]

I have a sister who is Mormon and she has 2 grown daughters. Both of her daughters are college-educated (at BYU) and very, very bright. They both have their degrees. But like most Mormon girls, they have a double degree, a B.A. and an Mrs.

For them, going to BYU meant getting a Bachelor's "just in case" your husband dies and you have to work. But your real goal for going there was to snag yourself a returned missionary and marry him. One of my nieces married before she graduated. The other one had my sister quite worried because she actually worked for several years before (giving in) getting married. Happily, she now stays home and is a good little wife and mommy, too.

The programming for Mormon girls is deeply insidious and all-pervasive. It's the rare one indeed that can defy and carve out a life just for herself.

This matches my own limited experience with Mormons and the differing expectations for sons vs. daughters. My aunt and uncle are Mormon and had two daughters, both of whom they love very much and want the best for them. However, in their mind, the best was that they find a good husband, be happily married and raise a family. Both my girl cousins went to a Mormon college (not BYU, because that was too expensive. They went to a smaller, less expensive one.) One cousin met her future husband there, during a Dating Game enactment the school arranged. She knew the people putting it together and said, "Put me with that boy there." They did, she and he were "paired up" and they fell in love and got married.

The other sister didn't meet anyone at college, so she returned home after a year or so, and re-connected with a young man she knew through the Church. He had gone on his mission and was finishing up his CPA. Seemingly less of a "falling in love" match and perhaps more of a practical match, yet they appear to also have been fairly happy and content with each other.

The cousin who married her dating game partner had four children, a boy and 3 daughters. Two of her daughters are apparently happy to go along with the Mormon program, have married and have children. The youngest daughter has been described as "moody," and is still single, living at home, and seems torn between acting out by wearing tight, somewhat racy clothing and lots of makeup, versus keeping her parents happy. I think she's unhappy with the restrictions but doesn't want to leave the boundaries she's lived with all her life.

So while I think my aunt and uncle,and my cousins, are kind and loving people - I also think the "one size fits all" mentality of the Mormon Church toward women is restrictive and ultimately harmful to women who and told from day one that the path to heaven for women means that when you are old enough, you marry and have a family. To do otherwise apparently means you could still go to heaven, but on a lower level. (And I guess that also means, you wouldn't be with your family that went to a higher level.)

[freejoytoo]

I think women get a raw deal in the afterlife. Don't they say that you don't get your own planet and instead have to have lots of spirit children with your husband and his plural wives?

Seven Severn the exmormon site fascinates me. Some of the doctrine is wild.

[deelaem]

I thought that I'd add something about my younger niece. She has a serious auto-immune disorder, and because of that she miscarried once and delivered premature twins once, who quickly died. She had to be bedridden for her other two pregnancies. She will always have this disorder, in which one of the symptoms is that she has very little appetite. So what does her saint of a priesthood husband decide to do? Why, take a new position in his company that means they have to live in Japan for 3-4 years. Yes, it's just been so great for my niece to be sick and taken away from her support system and have to raise her two sons completely on her own in a foreign country. :roll: Did she even think of saying no so that she could take care of herself? Noooo....not when there's so many Mormon brownie points to be had by being a long suffering wife. In the most recent picture I saw of her she looked emaciated. But my sister and her husband just pretend it's not happening.

It was hard enough on our family when my sister converted to Mormonism when she was 18. But to now see how her 6 children are turning out...it's heartbreak all over again. As always, I blame the patriarchy.

[fluttershies]

This matches my own limited experience with Mormons and the differing expectations for sons vs. daughters. My aunt and uncle are Mormon and had two daughters, both of whom they love very much and want the best for them. However, in their mind, the best was that they find a good husband, be happily married and raise a family. Both my girl cousins went to a Mormon college (not BYU, because that was too expensive. They went to a smaller, less expensive one.) One cousin met her future husband there, during a Dating Game enactment the school arranged. She knew the people putting it together and said, "Put me with that boy there." They did, she and he were "paired up" and they fell in love and got married.

The other sister didn't meet anyone at college, so she returned home after a year or so, and re-connected with a young man she knew through the Church. He had gone on his mission and was finishing up his CPA. Seemingly less of a "falling in love" match and perhaps more of a practical match, yet they appear to also have been fairly happy and content with each other.

The cousin who married her dating game partner had four children, a boy and 3 daughters. Two of her daughters are apparently happy to go along with the Mormon program, have married and have children. The youngest daughter has been described as "moody," and is still single, living at home, and seems torn between acting out by wearing tight, somewhat racy clothing and lots of makeup, versus keeping her parents happy. I think she's unhappy with the restrictions but doesn't want to leave the boundaries she's lived with all her life.

So while I think my aunt and uncle,and my cousins, are kind and loving people - I also think the "one size fits all" mentality of the Mormon Church toward women is restrictive and ultimately harmful to women who and told from day one that the path to heaven for women means that when you are old enough, you marry and have a family. To do otherwise apparently means you could still go to heaven, but on a lower level. (And I guess that also means, you wouldn't be with your family that went to a higher level.)

I think this is my problem with it all. I think that the way Mormons value motherhood is great, and I don't think it is valued as a 'real' job enough. However, motherhood should be 100% optional and I feel like this is not the case with Mormons.

[deelaem]

As Columbo said, "Just one more thing". (dated myself with that one) Can you tell this is a touchy subject for me?

I have a non-Mormon nephew who is gay. He's 100% convinced that my other niece, the one that worried my sister by not getting married in college, is gay and so is the guy she married. I happen to agree with that assessment. So I have to kind of wonder if that's how the gay Mormons work it out for themselves, by marrying another gay Mormon. It's interesting...