Salon.com takes on TSOTDRT

[Bella99]

She was "forced" into public school? I think her father asserted his right to have a say in his child's education and the court happened to agree.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

"tinwoman" over at Salon is pretty awesome in the comments. Her main points are, (1) the current lack of oversight in the US means we HAVE no data, and (2) most of the amazing success stories we hear about homeschooling probably would have done wonderfully in public schools also (just as the excellent public school students would probably do well with COMPETENT homeschooling).

I've seen a pretty horrible failed attempt at "unschooling" near me. The kid had no real oversight (which is not how "unschooling" is supposed to be, despite the name) and so never progressed beyond the intro chapter in any subject that would actually require perseverance. In the end she got help - didn't go to public school, but managed to hook up with another homeschooling family that was doing it right, and be directed by the other kids' mom. Neither family was religious.

But after seeing that, it definitely sounded plausible to me when I later heard from a friend in college admissions that the homeschoolers who apply (at a big state school) divided widely into two groups - kids who were very well prepared (almost over prepared) and then kids who were so far behind that they had no earthly idea even how far behind and out of their league they were. The interesting part? Even the kids in the latter half THINK they're brilliant, because they don't really have a good idea of just how much material is really covered in a normal public education at a decent high school. They just hear that public schools are "dumbed down" all their lives, and buy into it.

I also agree with a poster above that math seems to be the weak area for a lot of the more "free wheeling" homeschooling families. Surely a part of it is that it's not like reading, you need to do little drills and build up step by step. You have to be disciplined and work problems, which is different from just reading engaging books and retaining the material, so it takes a bit more planning and forcing a kid to sometimes drink the bitter medicine. To be honest, I think it's in some ways closer to sports (with all the drills before you get to play a game) than anything.

This isn't to say that homeschoolers don't succeed there - plenty do - but it's probably harder to do for the sort of "meh, I don't know, just sit at the table and do your thing, Mom is preggers and doesn't want to be bothered" types we snark here, not to mention that the usual "carrot" to inspire kids to want to learn math is some sort of science based geekery or career, and many of the isolationist religious aren't about to go near that, so yeah, who needs math?

[Lady]

Homeschooled kids should have to pass a regular academic progress test. Same with private school kids.

As for the Amish, I think the Supreme Court made a huge mistake in allowing them to get out of schooling their kids past eighth grade for religious reasons.

Just because parents have the ultimate authority over their children doesn't mean that they should be allowed to progressively fuck up their kids' lives by withholding education. And, considering that the Quiverfull girls are being groomed to be the "teachers in the home," I submit that in a generation or two, the kids will be so poorly educated that this talk of taking over the nation for Jeebus (not to be confused with that guy in the Gospels) will sound exceptionally funny.

This is the number one reason I don't see Quiverfull as a threat. They will force themselves into irrelevance by not being able to keep up with the outside world. How is Mom supposed to teach the kids how to read when she doesn't know how?

As for me, I was sent to a private Lutheran school through 8th grade and a public high school. I am now attempting college, however it is difficult because of the time off I took when I was ill. But I will have my AA degree in a few weeks!

[SisiL78]

I have a friend that homeschools in Israel. Not sure why exactly, her kids are super bright and she's one of these crunchy granola liberal Orthodox Jewish types (she and her husband are both American). Her kids seem to be thriving and might be ahead of many other kids their age, but I also wonder how they will function in a more rigid academic environment like college or how they will function when they are drafted into the Israeli army.

It seems nearly impossible to provide a good education to that many children by yourself. Afterall, they are all at different levels. They only school for a few hours a day. So let's be generous and say you are schooling for an entire 5 hour day. You have ten kids at ten different grade levels. Does that mean they only get 1/2 hour or less of grade specific schooling? Why don't the fundies get together and start cooperative schools and have some moms teach math and others teach reading. Or they focus on certain grade levels? But, then again, I think that the whole point of fundie homeschooling is to under-educate the kids. If the kids have a good education then they can walk out the door and leave. If they are the least bit educated they can walk out the door and into a college (at least a community college) and take out loans and get grants that will pay for the education and room and board as well. Then the college will have career services to help them find employment and help them settle into some sort of job after school. They need never see their parents again. If they raise scared and ignorant children then they will stay home and obey.

[Tempehst]

She was "forced" into public school? I think her father asserted his right to have a say in his child's education and the court happened to agree.

I meant that it happened against HER wishes and that this was based on a judge's rulings.

[Witsec7]

I think Tempest may be referencing the NH ruling.

Now for the rest of the story:

In their parenting Plan, the parties agreed to join decision-making responsibility for Amanda, including a provision requiring them to engage a mediator or parenting coordinator if they disagree about major decisions for Amanda. [belknap County Court, Kurowski v. Voydatch, 7/14/09, in-text citations deleted for clarity]

he parties do not debate the relative academic merits of home schooling and public school: it is clear that the home schooling Ms. Voydatch has provided has more than kept up with the academic requirement of the Meredith public school system. Instead, the debate centers on whether enrollment in public school will provide Amanda with an increased opportunity for group learning, group interaction, social problem solving, and exposure to a variety of points of view. Considering the testimony of both parties and the Guardian ad Litem, and by the standard of a preponderance of the evidence, the Court concludes that it would be in Amanda's best interests to attend public school. [belknap County Court, Kurowski v. Voydatch, 7

Divorced parents who couldn't agree on how to educate their daughter have brought their fight to New Hampshire's highest court in a case that looks at whether families have a constitutional right to home school their kids.

[...]

The justices peppered both sides with questions about whether it rises to a constitutional case or is simply a family court dispute between the parents that the court was well within its jurisdiction to resolve.

"This is not state versus parent," Justice Robert Lynn said. "The state was forced into this because it's a dispute between the parents that someone had to resolve." [Associated Press via Boston.com, 1/6/11]

http://mediamatters.org/research/201101280035

[Tempehst]

I have a friend that homeschools in Israel. Not sure why exactly, her kids are super bright and she's one of these crunchy granola liberal Orthodox Jewish types (she and her husband are both American). Her kids seem to be thriving and might be ahead of many other kids their age, but I also wonder how they will function in a more rigid academic environment like college or how they will function when they are drafted into the Israeli army.

She might be homeschooling because she disagrees pedagogically with the way schools function. My decision to homeschool came after I read "How Children Fail" and "How Children Learn" by John Holt. The first book consists largely of observations of he made while teaching at a private school. He discusses how most of the learning that takes place in school is based on things like fear and a desire to "get the right answer" instead of understand how you get the right answer. I found the entire book very interesting especially in light of my own experiences in school. The general idea he tries to convey is that children WANT to learn and they KNOW how to learn, but being in school kills a lot of that drive.

It's completely opposite of TSOTDRT because the idea is that teaching your own children and giving them more flexibility will enable them to become "idea people" who think out of the box and are less likely to just follow someone because they're an authority people.

Parents who think all their kids need are the bible and character booklets obviously don't want kids who are going to question authority and think for themselves :p

[Tempehst]

I think Tempest may be referencing the NH ruling.

Now for the rest of the story:

http://mediamatters.org/research/201101280035

Drat, I had just managed to find an article from a not christiany source about it:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_ha ... arguments/

On the whole, I think it's probably better for the daughter in the long run that she was sent to public school based on the father's wishes, but it's the precedent that is concerning. From what I understood, she was doing fine in homeschool, she was learning (even if it was from Bob Jones University :doh:) and was (presumably) interacting with some kids from the community in the classes she took at school. So from a homeschooling perspective, here's a case where a child who was doing fine in homeschooling who was forced into public school against her wishes and against her mother's. That's concerning, especially if they were to take this case and use it as precedent in other homeschooling cases.

But as long as it's only applied to divorce cases where parents don't agree on the children's schooling, it's less likely to be applied to other homeschoolers who are doing fine in homeschool.

[Witsec7]

On the whole, I think it's probably better for the daughter in the long run that she was sent to public school based on the father's wishes, but it's the precedent that is concerning. From what I understood, she was doing fine in homeschool, she was learning (even if it was from Bob Jones University ) and was (presumably) interacting with some kids from the community in the classes she took at school. So from a homeschooling perspective, here's a case where a child who was doing fine in homeschooling who was forced into public school against her wishes and against her mother's. That's concerning, especially if they were to take this case and use it as precedent in other homeschooling cases.

But as long as it's only applied to divorce cases where parents don't agree on the children's schooling, it's less likely to be applied to other homeschoolers who are doing fine in homeschool.

The guardian ad litems' opinion is found here:

http://www.nhfamilylawblog.com/uploads/ ... iOrder.pdf

It doesn't support your posit. I do understand that the HSLDA POV did a lot to obscure the reality of what this lawsuit was really about, and flaming fears among homeschoolers is what they do best.

[Tempehst]

The guardian ad litems' opinion is found here:

http://www.nhfamilylawblog.com/uploads/ ... iOrder.pdf

It doesn't support your posit. I do understand that the HSLDA POV did a lot to obscure the reality of what this lawsuit was really about, and flaming fears among homeschoolers is what they do best.

Homeschoolers don't really need fears flamed, they have enough fears as it is. It hasn't been very long since it was illegal to homeschool and there are a lot of people who are very against homeschooling in any form, so a lot of it is CONSTANT VIGILANCE on the part of homeschoolers to make sure that the ability to teach one's kids isn't taken away again.

Which part did it not support? Was she not doing well in homeschooling? Did she want to go to public school full-time (or not care)? I'll leave out the possibility that her mom wanted her to go because if her mom had been for it, none of this would have been an issue :P

Edited to add: I found the bit about "the court is extremely reluctant to impose on parents' a decision about a child's education..." very reassuring. But I, as a future homeschooler who hears a lot of criticism about the whole socialization thing being a problem among homeschoolers, I found it a bit annoying that was the husbands main objection to homeschooling and found it rather humorous that his daughter reported he wasn't doing his fair share of homeschooling her when she was with him! :lol: Daddy got tattled on!

[Witsec7]

Homeschoolers don't really need fears flamed, they have enough fears as it is. It hasn't been very long since it was illegal to homeschool and there are a lot of people who are very against homeschooling in any form, so a lot of it is CONSTANT VIGILANCE on the part of homeschoolers to make sure that the ability to teach one's kids isn't taken away again.

Which part did it not support? Was she not doing well in homeschooling? Did she want to go to public school full-time (or not care)? I'll leave out the possibility that her mom wanted her to go because if her mom had been for it, none of this would have been an issue

Well I gotta admit you're a lot more paranoid than most of the home schoolers I've known. :lol:

From what research I've done, and mind you I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't recall any states where homeschooling was illegal.

[Bella99]

When my mother was one of 7 growing up dirt poor in W.Va., back in the days when parents had to buy school books, her parents would give all of their money to the church. She was lucky if she had books by December. She adamantly states that compulsory public education saved her. If the state had not forced her parents to send her to school, she would have been at home, taking care of the babies, cleaning and cooking - just like many of the families we snark on. I have nothing against homeschooling, but the complete lack of regulation and oversight puts too many children at risk of severe educational neglect. At some point most people will need to provide for themselves and possibly children. That means learning to get along in this world, with everybody else who happens to inhabit it.

[Wolfie]

sorry, got people mixed up.

[JesusFightClub]

OK, want to address one thing. "functionally illiterate" is NOT the same as "completely illiterate".

If you are functionally illiterate, you have problems comprehending a lot of things. Bus timetables. Lists of rules.

If you are completely illiterate you *cannot read at all*. Everything will look like meaningless scribbles to you. You cannot read STOP signs or street names or spell your own name. And if a child is in that condition at 9 or 11 or God forbid 16 years old, that child is in danger.

[clibbyjo]

She might be homeschooling because she disagrees pedagogically with the way schools function. My decision to homeschool came after I read "How Children Fail" and "How Children Learn" by John Holt. The first book consists largely of observations of he made while teaching at a private school. He discusses how most of the learning that takes place in school is based on things like fear and a desire to "get the right answer" instead of understand how you get the right answer. I found the entire book very interesting especially in light of my own experiences in school. The general idea he tries to convey is that children WANT to learn and they KNOW how to learn, but being in school kills a lot of that drive.

It's completely opposite of TSOTDRT because the idea is that teaching your own children and giving them more flexibility will enable them to become "idea people" who think out of the box and are less likely to just follow someone because they're an authority people.

Parents who think all their kids need are the bible and character booklets obviously don't want kids who are going to question authority and think for themselves :p

I love John Holt and always recommend him to new homeschoolers when they are freaking out.

[snarkbillie]

When my mother was one of 7 growing up dirt poor in W.Va., back in the days when parents had to buy school books, her parents would give all of their money to the church. She was lucky if she had books by December. She adamantly states that compulsory public education saved her. If the state had not forced her parents to send her to school, she would have been at home, taking care of the babies, cleaning and cooking - just like many of the families we snark on. I have nothing against homeschooling, but the complete lack of regulation and oversight puts too many children at risk of severe educational neglect. At some point most people will need to provide for themselves and possibly children. That means learning to get along in this world, with everybody else who happens to inhabit it.

The regulations and oversight vary widely in the states. Some states have what I feel is adequate oversight while some have no oversight at all. Some have a lot of oversight but I feel it's maybe the wrong kind.

[clibbyjo]

The regulations and oversight vary widely in the states. Some states have what I feel is adequate oversight while some have no oversight at all. Some have a lot of oversight but I feel it's maybe the wrong kind.

No matter what the oversight, there are still going to be the wackos who are under the radar and will never comply with any rules. Those types are usually the ultra Christians who are not going to "let the gov. tell me how I raise my children".

PA. has very strict homeschool laws and I do not agree with them. If I moved to a lax state, I would not suddenly have my kids doing any less work.

[Bella99]

No matter what the oversight, there are still going to be the wackos who are under the radar and will never comply with any rules. Those types are usually the ultra Christians who are not going to "let the gov. tell me how I raise my children".

PA. has very strict homeschool laws and I do not agree with them. If I moved to a lax state, I would not suddenly have my kids doing any less work.

Here in Texas there seems to be no oversight. Ironically I can get in lots of trouble if my child is truant from public school, but homeschoolers can pretty much do whatever they want and the state doesn't bother to say anything.