Dan B. Completed the Bar Exams and a Thank You

[Turning-A-New-Leaf]

Well it has been a few weeks since Dan B. left to take the California Bar Exams and Bethany has finally reported in to say thank you for all those who sent encouragement and prayers for Dan while taking the exams.

Interesting things to note:

- All the books and study aides were packed-up and put away last month.

- Living 'normal' everyday life now with all the 4 years of schooling and Bar exams behind them.

- They really believe that it is all behind them and they don't have to worry about school or studying anymore.

- They have more time together now in the evenings after work, since Dan is not busy with school.

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Still, I just don't get it...

From how the report sounded, it looks like Dan won't be doing anymore studying anytime soon and it appears he went through the exams fine and will pass. All the books and materials are packed away.

So what happens if he finds out he didn't pass in May? (I know the re-take is in July.)

Will they unpack everything and start over? Or give-up? Or find a different avenue to make money?

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There doesn't seem to be a back-up plan...they really do believe Dan is finished with school and exams.

This is so weird, so many people work so hard to go through graduate programs, and to think he possibly can slide through and make it, is really just unbelievable.

[ohpotteryourotter]

He could only ever get a job in an overtly Christian firm or something, I'm thinking.

[Witsec7]

gods will b done :roll: Maybe gods will is going to be a series of retests?

[nokidsmom]

Yeah, it does seem to me that they don't get it. In the case where you need to take some post-graduation exam (bar, licensing, etc.) you really aren't "done" until you get the results that say you passed. And many occupations require further schooling down the line.

[mirele]

Yeah, it does seem to me that they don't get it. In the case where you need to take some post-graduation exam (bar, licensing, etc.) you really aren't "done" until you get the results that say you passed. And many occupations require further schooling down the line.

He graduated from an unaccredited (except in California) law school and he took the hardest bar exam in the country (also in California). With all due respect, he should not count his chickens before they're hatched. The chances that he passed the CA bar the first time around are slim.

And then I might recommend to him that he read some third tier toilet blogs (that is, blogs that talk about how insanely horrible the legal job market is right now). It will be an eye-opener.

[nokidsmom]

He graduated from an unaccredited (except in California) law school and he took the hardest bar exam in the country (also in California). With all due respect, he should not count his chickens before they're hatched. The chances that he passed the CA bar the first time around are slim.

And then I might recommend to him that he read some third tier toilet blogs (that is, blogs that talk about how insanely horrible the legal job market is right now). It will be an eye-opener.

I was wondering one thing. This may be a dumb question, but I am not familiar with the school or with the bar exam process, to be honest. Being that the school is accredited only in CA, then only state bar he could sit for (and potentially practice in) is CA, right? If that's the case, that makes 49 states where his law school education doesn't qualify him. So if he moves to another state, he would have no chance of practicing law there unless he returned to school, which given the attitude that he's "done" seems highly unlikely. And given the current lousy legal job climate, that's seriously limiting his options. Of course, any options he may have at all depends on whether he passes the CA bar eventually.

[Kitten]

Being that the school is accredited only in CA, then only state bar he could sit for (and potentially practice in) is CA, right?

Short answer - YES. Long answer - there are a *few* states that allow attorneys who have been in practice for a specified period of time (usually five years) to apply for admission to that state's Bar without taking another bar exam, or taking only the state-specific portion of the exam. So, in the short term, the only state he would be able to practice in, if he passes, is California.

Full list is here for people who are really interested:

http://www.juristech.com/chart.html

[nokidsmom]

Short answer - YES. Long answer - there are a *few* states that allow attorneys who have been in practice for a specified period of time (usually five years) to apply for admission to that state's Bar without taking another bar exam, or taking only the state-specific portion of the exam. So, in the short term, the only state he would be able to practice in, if he passes, is California.

Full list is here for people who are really interested:

http://www.juristech.com/chart.html

Thanks, Kitten, for the clarification.

[onlyorganic]

Something tells me these people live in such a closed world they believe he IS done because once he passes (ah-hem, gets the letter in the late spring that he passed) he will be an attorney at the job he already works at, because God is good. And... it pisses me off when she talks about her "work" because I know she is referring to kissin' and lovin' on her sweet man and that SHE put all those damn books away.

[ophelia]

Isn't he already working for a fundie homeschool organisation? maybe they don't really care if he passes.. since they are all about SOTDRT they can't blame him.

[Turning-A-New-Leaf]

Yes, I believe he is still working at the Homeschool Legal Defense Association.

Not sure of the standards for practicing attorneys within the association, but it would be interesting to research.

[ohpotteryourotter]

I do have a feeling he'll be offered a job with HSLDA. He's been all tight-knit with them for the past few years.

[moreorlessnu]

If he took a bar prep course like BarBri, he does need to send back the books to recoup a several hundred dollar book deposit. I don't know if you re-use the same set of books if you fail, or if you would get a new set.

I would think that most states that let you waive in require that you graduated from an accredited law school.

[Witsec6]

Yes, I believe he is still working at the Homeschool Legal Defense Association.

Not sure of the standards for practicing attorneys within the association, but it would be interesting to research.

http://www.hslda.org/about/staff/attorneys/Smith.asp

There are 11 attorneys at HSLDA-- One got his law degree from USD, one doesn't say where he got his law degree but mentions that he founded Patrick Henry College, one went to Memphis State and Georgetown, one went to Harvard, one University of Virginia, one to Regent, one to Boston University,

Then things get hinky, three lawyers went to Oak Brook, "an apprenticeship-based law school in Fresno, California". All three did their apprenticeships at HSLDA and all are only licensed in California.

There is also one female lawyer, licensed in California, who went to school at North Western California University School of Law (I'm Canadian, I have no idea how reputable this is). However, the majority of her profile is spent outlining her 30-year marriage and highlighting the fact that she homeschooled since 1986.

I didn't see any cached job ads, so I don't know what the requirements are, but it seems a good bet that being homeschooled, having some sort of attachment to Patrick Henry, or being a token minority gender count a lot.

[Beeks]

To be fair, there's not a whole lot to do between taking the exam and getting the results. I packed my books away too! It looks like he took bar/bri so I guess he has a chance at passing, assuming he is reasonably intelligent, but I would not have said the milestone was "behind me" until I passed. I wonder if he words it differently than Beth does. She might not really get it.

[socalrules]

Until he really knows he failed the exam, he doesn't need to study. Once you have done the program, it is easier studying the second time around because you have already touched the information. You are just refining your approach to material. He doesn't have to send the books back to BarBri. They are his and he can do what he wants with them. He also doesn't get or need a new set to study again as it's basically the same material and the bar is notorious for repeating certain questions year after year. The law hasn't changed and the material hasn't improved that much to necessitate needing new materials. When I passed, I sold my Barbri books on Ebay for around $500. I got another few hundred for my PMBR materials as well. People will buy materials that are even a few years old so you can always make some money back.

[HijabiLady]

Doctors here in the States have to take 3 licensing exams before being allowed to practice. (eventually they will have to take boards as well) I studied my ass off for my Step 1 and then kept every single book, reference material and computer bookmark saved until I received my passing results. Even then I simply gave away some redundant material to fellow colleagues preparing for their Steps and kept pertinent sources for future review. I STILL have some helpful books when I need to touch up on a subject or area of specialty that isn't in my day-to-day experience.

[Coconut Flan]

Being I have a family member who is a lawyer in Cali, Oak Brook is unaccredited in Cali as it is everywhere else. Graduates of unaccredited law schools had a 23.6% pass rate for first time testers last July. The rate goes down for repeat testers.

Last July Oak Brook had 0 first timers and 8 repeaters. Two passed for a 25% pass rate for that one round.

Surprisingly, Feb 2011, Oak Brook had 6 of 12 pass the first time.

That Northwestern School of Law is another unaccredited school.

[Beeks]

Until he really knows he failed the exam, he doesn't need to study. Once you have done the program, it is easier studying the second time around because you have already touched the information. You are just refining your approach to material. He doesn't have to send the books back to BarBri. They are his and he can do what he wants with them. He also doesn't get or need a new set to study again as it's basically the same material and the bar is notorious for repeating certain questions year after year. The law hasn't changed and the material hasn't improved that much to necessitate needing new materials. When I passed, I sold my Barbri books on Ebay for around $500. I got another few hundred for my PMBR materials as well. People will buy materials that are even a few years old so you can always make some money back.

They also give you a decent refund for returning them. I couldn't sell mine because I'd marked them up so badly and ripped out so many pages, but I still got a few hundred bucks back just returning them to bar/bri.

ETA: here's why I think Dan has a shot at passing: he didn't go to an unaccredited school because he was too stupid to get into a regular school. He went because he's a crazy Christian who didn't want or need a regular law school education. Law school itself really doesn't do a whole lot to prep you for the bar. If you're smart and a good test taker, and you take bar/bri, you're fine. The pass rates for the unaccredited schools are so low because generally, stupid people go there.

[marmalade]

Short answer - YES. Long answer - there are a *few* states that allow attorneys who have been in practice for a specified period of time (usually five years) to apply for admission to that state's Bar without taking another bar exam, or taking only the state-specific portion of the exam. So, in the short term, the only state he would be able to practice in, if he passes, is California.

Full list is here for people who are really interested:

http://www.juristech.com/chart.html

Interesting because my SIL went to Hastings and passed the Bar in CA, but didn't stay here long before she bolted for New York. I'm not sure if she sat for the NY Bar (this would have been mid 80's), or if it was reciprocal at that time. At any rate, she's a senior editor at a major publisher of those textbooks law students are forced to use. Her hu by, a Jersey native, went to NYU (they were careful to live in Manhattan a couple years before and while he was in law school, in his early 30's) and has passed the bar in Jersey, NY and CA. I forgot to check the list before I posted, but I guess NY/NJ are not immediate "in's" as one would assume since they share transportation etc. that is interstate.

[Witsec7]

Interesting because my SIL went to Hastings and passed the Bar in CA, but didn't stay here long before she bolted for New York. I'm not sure if she sat for the NY Bar (this would have been mid 80's), or if it was reciprocal at that time. At any rate, she's a senior editor at a major publisher of those textbooks law students are forced to use. Her hu by, a Jersey native, went to NYU (they were careful to live in Manhattan a couple years before and while he was in law school, in his early 30's) and has passed the bar in Jersey, NY and CA. I forgot to check the list before I posted, but I guess NY/NJ are not immediate "in's" as one would assume since they share transportation etc. that is interstate.

I went to law school in NJ and at that time we had reciprocity with NY, I'm thinking PA too, but hey that was back in the freekin' stone age, I could be wrong.

[Eclipse]

When I wrote the Bar a year and a half ago i put everything away and didn't want to see it again until I learnt if I passed or failed. I also decided not to take a second Bar that year, as originally planned. I understand not wanting to see that material for awhile after all the studying, pressure and anxiety over the Bar. What I don't understand is someone who went to an unaccredited law school and wrote the California Bar be so sure he will never write it again.

[mirele]

I went to law school in NJ and at that time we had reciprocity with NY, I'm thinking PA too, but hey that was back in the freekin' stone age, I could be wrong.

One of my friends (graduated 2010 from Rutgers) sat the New York portion of the bar in Schenectady (that was where he was assigned by lottery, it wasn't by choice), then hopped a train back to New Jersey for the next two days of the NJ bar. So, no reciprocity. (He passed both bars, but due to the craptoads legal employment situation is living with relatives in the middle of Indiana.)

[onlyorganic]

When I wrote the Bar a year and a half ago i put everything away and didn't want to see it again until I learnt if I passed or failed. I also decided not to take a second Bar that year, as originally planned. I understand not wanting to see that material for awhile after all the studying, pressure and anxiety over the Bar. What I don't understand is someone who went to an unaccredited law school and wrote the California Bar be so sure he will never write it again.

Yes, it's the smugness that bothers me the most. Her post comes across as "Glad we have that done so we can get onto the most important things in life, being a Christian couple that's better than you and more in love than most and our new baybeeeee."

[DistantStar]

I met a now ex-boyfriend in the period between when he took the exam (in Louisiana) and got the results. Talk about nervous! He passed, but it's so stupid to act as if you have until you know for sure! Packing the stuff away is understandable, being smugly sure you'll never have to look at it again...stupid.

Also, there are CLEs. Same boyfriend went to several while we were together. It's not like you never have to look at a book again once you're a lawyer.