Euthanasia-How Can Anyone Not See This As Cruel?

[desertvixen]

I think I'm kind of weird though. I'd only be willing to do it for someone I loved.

Agreed, only if because there are only a very few people I would take that risk for. I also wouldn't do it for someone who didn't ask.

And, it's the mercy I would want for myself.

[valsa]

I also wouldn't do it for someone who didn't ask.

Hopefully, that goes without saying.

[ladypuglover]

Wow, this is so wrong. How does she sleep at night? I wonder if Ann Rule would look at the cases?

This is from 15-11 years ago as my side of the family cut off Aunt's side at the death of our grandfather. We refused to even attend the same after-services as them for killing a pefectly healthy man who just happened to be very,very wealthy.

I'm another fence-sitter. My own experience is that a very dear friend committed suicide, assisted by her mother, and her mother was arrested and tried for murder. It was quite a big case here in the UK.

Terrible, just terrible that they would judge her mother like that.

[desertvixen]

Hopefully, that goes without saying.

Well, I voted for Obama and support the idea of health care for all... so you know I totally believe in death panels. /sarcasm

I always just like to clarify in case anyone gets the wrong idea. It's a pretty contentious issue in our family at large. My grandfather refused to do what my grandmother wanted because he felt guilty about driving her away, cheating on her during their entire marriage (he suffered from a serious inability to keep it in his pants), but then he loved her so much he "couldn't let her go".

That was one of the good things that came out of the Terri Schiavo case, is that it got people to start think and talking about what they would want done in those situations. My father, for instance, is in the same camp as my mother and myself - but most of his Catholic family is violently opposed to the idea. Again, I'll be the person who has to make the decision, since he's not married and has no other children.

[Elle]

Interesting. By comparison, when my grandmother was slowing, painfully dying of cancer, she was envious of dogs and cats because they could be put to sleep and spared a lot of suffering.

It's a horrible realization that we spare cats and dogs horrendous pain and suffering, yet expect humans to endure it for weeks or even months, even when they'd made their wishes known. If you're in Oregon, you can have doctor-assisted suicide (it's not easy to get, but it's possible), provided you're terminal, are still of sound mind, etc.. If someone is terminal and wants it over quickly and without pain, then it is beyond selfish to the point of evil to say that that person should suffer tremendously so that someone else can brag about spiritual growth. The harder thing to do is to let go. Why is letting go not a better way to spiritual growth, save your loved one the suffering while you're at it?

[Three and Done]

Euthanasia IS mercy.

There are situations that should allow for an individual to make that choice, which I would imagine would be restricted to the following:

A terminal illness (and I would state that a parent should be able to make this choice for a child that has a terminal or fatal illness).

An unexpected, completely life-altering disability (ie quadriplegia due to an accident, etc.).

Exisiting in a permanent vegetative state due to illness or accident.

No one should have the right to force another person to live in pain and misery.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

That was one of the good things that came out of the Terri Schiavo case, is that it got people to start think and talking about what they would want done in those situations. My father, for instance, is in the same camp as my mother and myself - but most of his Catholic family is violently opposed to the idea. Again, I'll be the person who has to make the decision, since he's not married and has no other children.

I can't even remember where I read this now, but it stuck with me - the idea that at the end of life, or when having an illness that can have very bad outcomes, or undergoing very risky surgery after such an illness where it's very unclear what the outcome will be, the doctor should have a conversation with the patient that's fairly nuanced, not about "just kill me" per se but rather in ADVANCE, a long thought out discussion about just what makes life worth living for that person, specifically. The point being to get at some discussion about what is the minimum functionality that will make life worth it. It would vary from person to person, obviously. But paring down to the minimum, what would you need? For some it's the ability to enjoy tea and a radio program. Etc.

But so then based on that, they can have discussion about what interventions to take vs. when to just switch to palliative pain measures, even if it doesn't come to active euthanasia. Or, sometimes there ends up being the call, should we try to resuscitate this guy when things have gone wrong in the operating room, or let the guy die now?

It was quite food for thought.

The term in the original post, "put down," horrifies me no end just because I can't help but imagine it as someone who doesn't want it, and it's scheduled. But, as a kid I was obsessed with the death penalty...

As for Terri Schiavo, I think she was long past suffering. There wasn't any reason to keep her alive, but she wasn't suffering either. So often people ask about the vegetative state thing, I have to think that well, I'd be a burden to my carers so there's no point, but if I'm truly in a vegetative state, I'm far beyond caring too. So much of the "I wouldn't want to be that way..." things, by the time you are you can't possibly care. So in a way, you died already, even if your body is around.

Scarier for me are the infinite pain or sick feeling with no hope of it ever improving, and not being able to do basic interactions. Or ending up a brain in a vat, but the vat has no internet connection. At that point, yeah, I have to think, well, give me an overdose of the painkiller/euphoric drugs. Perhaps even without my knowing it...

Locked in syndrome is probably my own personal worst nightmare. Stroke in the pons, it can happen. *shudder*

[Koala]

I would like to see doctor assisted suicide legalized in certain cases.

My great grandmother lived on her own until she was 93. Then one day she had a massive stroke. According to her doctors she still had all of her mental faculties, but she couldn't move, walk, or talk. She spent 3 solid years lying on her back staring at a nursing home ceiling. She was literally trapped inside her own body. If she hurt or had an itch, she couldn't tell anyone. She had no ability to swallow, so she was put on a feeding tube. He mouth would get dry and we were only allowed to *VERY* carefully swab her mouth with a wet sponge. It must have been a fucking nightmare for her. No one would even dream of letting an animal suffer the way she did. I wished a thousand times that a doctor could legally help her, because I believe my grandfather would have surely signed the papers.

The amount of pain we allow people to go through (against their will) is absolutely unbelievable to me. It's inhumane. She finally died after 3 years. My only hope is that they were wrong, and she never knew what was going on. I doubt it though.

I am a very big believer in quality of life, and ones ability to decided whether they want to continue on or not.

[Three and Done]

I would like to see doctor assisted suicide legalized in certain cases.

My great grandmother lived on her own until she was 93. Then one day she had a massive stroke. According to her doctors she still had all of her mental faculties, but she couldn't move, walk, or talk. She spent 3 solid years lying on her back staring at a nursing home ceiling. She was literally trapped inside her own body. If she hurt or had an itch, she couldn't tell anyone. She had no ability to swallow, so she was put on a feeding tube. He mouth would get dry and we were only allowed to *VERY* carefully swab her mouth with a wet sponge. It must have been a fucking nightmare for her. No one would even dream of letting an animal suffer the way she did. I wished a thousand times that a doctor could legally help her, because I believe my grandfather would have surely signed the papers.

The amount of pain we allow people to go through (against their will) is absolutely unbelievable to me. It's inhumane. She finally died after 3 years. My only hope is that they were wrong, and she never knew what was going on. I doubt it though.

I am a very big believer in quality of life, and ones ability to decided whether they want to continue on or not.

YES. If I am ever in the position your grandmother was in (and my sympathies to your grandmother, you, and your family for enduring that), I would much rather NOT be here at all.

I worked in the health care field for years (and am now getting back into it), and the number of people I saw who were experiencing similar situations to yours broke my heart.

My personal experiences with a dear friend and members of my own family have solidified my position further - I DO NOT want to simply exist... I want to LIVE.

[artmama]

Correct me if I am wrong but... 'upping the morphine' is palliative care, not euthanasia. Right?

Palliative care can include that, yes. My dad passed away last October after having been progressively sicker for almost five years. The last several weeks he was on the palliative care floor of the VA hospital, but he received more than just pain management. The doctors were still trying to fight the infection in his lungs, albeit unsuccessfully. When he decided he was absolutely done, the doctor gave him morphine and ativan. I was there the last time he was conscious, which was about 6 pm, and he passed away the next day about 11 am. I know he got several doses of both medications, but it wasn't like active euthanasia, and the nurse made it very clear they weren't going to kill him, even when that was his wish.

[NurseNell]

YES. If I am ever in the position your grandmother was in (and my sympathies to your grandmother, you, and your family for enduring that), I would much rather NOT be here at all.

Me too. When my grandmother had a stroke at age 76 in 1972 my mother told the doctor, no IVs, no treating of pneumonia if she gets it. This was her mother's wishes. She wanted comfort measures only. And that's what she got. Just before she died, 10 days later and on Christmas (her birthday too) she awakened briefly to my mother and said thank you.

My grandmother's sister had been overcome by smoke in her 3rd floor apartment located above a restaurant in New York City. Several people died in the fire. My great aunt was resuscitated at the scene and taken to a hospital where all kinds of interventions were started, including being intubated and on a ventilator. Once her 2 adult children were located and had arrived they asked that the interventions be stopped. Their mother had discussed what she wanted and she never wanted to be kept alive by methods she considered extraordinary. The hospital refused and my great aunt "lived" for another several months.

A time to be born, and a time to die but so many of us focus only on the time to be born part.

[shrewlu]

I am a very big believer in quality of life, and ones ability to decided whether they want to continue on or not.

You said that perfectly. :clap:

I can vividly remember the horror of watching my mother die from ovarian cancer. She could barely eat or drink and if she didn't take her pain meds, was in serious pain. But if she took them, she was out of it. She had no quality of life left at that point. Two days before she died, her doctor prescribed her morphine for home use and while I have no proof of this, I suspect that she took more than she was meant to. Maybe she had the advice of her doctor when it came to doing that, maybe not. But I do believe it was an intentional choice on her part, even though physician assisted suicide is not legal in her state.

I'll just never understand why it is considered merciful to euthanize a terminally ill pet, but when you apply the same standards to a person, it is verboten for the most part.

[NurseNell]

I can vividly remember the horror of watching my mother die from ovarian cancer. She could barely eat or drink and if she didn't take her pain meds, was in serious pain. But if she took them, she was out of it. She had no quality of life left at that point. Two days before she died, her doctor prescribed her morphine for home use and while I have no proof of this, I suspect that she took more than she was meant to. Maybe she had the advice of her doctor when it came to doing that, maybe not. But I do believe it was an intentional choice on her part, even though physician assisted suicide is not legal in her state.

I believe Jackie Kennedy made this same decision in her battle with lymphoma. It's probably much more common than we know about. I can't blame anyone who makes that choice.

I'm sorry you had to lose your mother to that silent killer, ovarian cancer.

[BayLee_10]

I say this now so there is no doubt of my desires. KILL ME. If I cannot communicate, if I require pain meds to just breathe, if I am not aware of my surroundings, if I have lost the ability to do all that I love... UP THE MORPHINE. I do not want to live like that. I do not want to be a person made "perfect" by love or some bullshit. If all thats keeping me alive are IVs and machines then its over.

One man's palliative care is another man's euthanasia. I totally agree with the above for myself. It seems we have no problem wanting to control our own end game, but always feel that others cannot be trusted with that power. And, in truth, there is a case to be made for abuse. I remember 40 years ago when I was so positive about my beliefs, and now I spend more time saying, "I don't know."

[tankgirl]

I think a choice should be available, not everyone wants to make the choice, or will think that Euthanasia is right, but for the people who believe in it, they should have a choice for themselves. I also have a story on this subject. My Great Grandmother, suffered a pretty terrible drunk driving accident, when she was walking down the street, while in care she suffered a stroke. My Grandmother made the mistake (one she admited herself) of taking my sister and I as children to see her in care, after not seeing her for years, it was honestly the most horrifying and cruel thing I had ever seen. This woman was tied to her bed, she made animal like noise, first one's to get my Grandmother's attention as she put the things she brought for her into drawers and tidied the room. Then when my Grandmother went to her she started to make these terrible pain noises. She stopped when she saw us, the noises got softer, but soon it was back to pain. She twisted in the arm restraints she wanted free of them. Later I heard she was in them because she would rip out her feeding tubes, would claw and bite at many care givers. If fact my Grandmother was one of the few who she at least did not try to bite. It seemed to me, even then it was cruel, how can you let some one survive in this pain, reduced to little more then her wounded animal nature? She lived like this for more then a decade. It scared me and effected me so much, I think at some point the more compassionate thing is to let go.

[Artemis]

Yes, her autopsy showed lesions of her brain and spinal cord consistent with her diagnosis of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis. Which the UK still insists does not even exist! :angry-cussingblack:

I wish I hadn't seen this. My younger daughter has just been diagnosed with ME. She's 16, and has been ill since before Christmas, and we are just about to go tangle with the psychiatric lobby which has taken over everything to do with ME here, when in other, more civilised countries, it's recognised as a neurological illness (the WHO recognises it as such, certainly,) and trials are happening into drug relief for it.

My friend who died of AIDS took a morphine overdose while he still could. We all knew he was going to do it, and we saw no reason why we should deprive him of that choice because he had suffered for so long.

[debrand]

But there is a point. And I saw it in the family – in Nora’s husband as he persisted in getting pain meds down her throat for as long a time as she could swallow, in her children as they came and kept vigil with their mother. Love was perfecting them – they might not see it right away; it might take years before they can point to this time in their lives and say, as I now can after my mother’s horrific death from lung cancer, twenty years ago: “We were all made better people because of this.â€

I find this sick and selfish. Other people should not suffer so that you can gain some spiritual points with god. It reminds me of conversations that we've had on this forum about Mother Theresa.

My husband was curious as to why she had to take pills instead of having the pain medicine administered through an IV?

[SpeshulTaterTot]

I consider myself a fence siter on this one, but I'm slowly getting off the fence. I guess watching your mother die of breast cancer does that to you.

If a person is terminally ill and wants to end it, more power to them. Palliative care is amazing, I'm so grateful to the nurses who made those last days a tiny bit more bearable for all of us. But sometimes, it's just not enough. I still wonder if one of the nurses just upped the morphine when they asked us out of the room to change the bandages, because my mom died only minutes later. If she did, it was mercy.

[Soldier of the One]

SpeshulTaterTot,

I am so sorry for your loss... :(

[SpeshulTaterTot]

Thank you.

[Witsec7]

Interesting. By comparison, when my grandmother was slowing, painfully dying of cancer, she was envious of dogs and cats because they could be put to sleep and spared a lot of suffering.

And contrary to prior opinions Oregon's death with dignity law hasn't made us the suicide destination of the US. Few than 600 people have taken advantage of it, including the Dr. that helped frame our law.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/inde ... _oreg.html

Peter Goodwin, the first doctor in Oregon to campaign publicly for the terminally ill to obtain medical help in ending their lives, died Sunday shortly after exercising the right he fought to secure. He was 83.

Goodwin's four adult children and their spouses surrounded him in his Terwilliger Plaza apartment when he took a planned overdose of a prescribed drug Sunday.

[emmiedahl]

My sympathies to those of you who have lost loved ones.

My mother works in hospice/palliative care as a psychologist. She has said that her agency's policy is to be aggressive in pain management, even if it may shorten the patient's lifespan, if this is something that the patient desires. And I think almost all of the patients desire it. One of her jobs is to talk to the patient at intake and get very real about how they want their death to be. People have the right to be medicated when in pain even if it depresses their respirations to the point where organ systems shut down. This is a Catholic organization, btw. My MIL died of breast cancer in another state and her pain relief definitely contributed to the speed of her death. But really, who wants a long and painful death when a short and comfortable one is available?

It surprises me that most Americans are very in favor of the pain management listed above, which is a thinly veiled euthanasia because death is side effect rather than a purpose, yet are against actual euthanasia.

[shrewlu]

I believe Jackie Kennedy made this same decision in her battle with lymphoma. It's probably much more common than we know about. I can't blame anyone who makes that choice.

I'm sorry you had to lose your mother to that silent killer, ovarian cancer.

Thank you.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

My sympathies to those of you who have lost loved ones.

My mother works in hospice/palliative care as a psychologist. She has said that her agency's policy is to be aggressive in pain management, even if it may shorten the patient's lifespan, if this is something that the patient desires. And I think almost all of the patients desire it. One of her jobs is to talk to the patient at intake and get very real about how they want their death to be. People have the right to be medicated when in pain even if it depresses their respirations to the point where organ systems shut down. This is a Catholic organization, btw. My MIL died of breast cancer in another state and her pain relief definitely contributed to the speed of her death. But really, who wants a long and painful death when a short and comfortable one is available?

It surprises me that most Americans are very in favor of the pain management listed above, which is a thinly veiled euthanasia because death is side effect rather than a purpose, yet are against actual euthanasia.

I dunno - I have to admit that that kinda seems like the best end to me, really (if we're talking disease processes). I don't know that I want to consciously decide to kill myself (just the idea that "this is the last moment" kinda horrifies me, I'd want to see something else! wait a minute), but I can easily imagine asking to basically be sedated constantly, and not really minding if I woke up or not. So yeah, some sort of "comfort measures only please" and then as the amount of sedatives naturally goes up eventually it's the end? Sounds fine.

That grey area might be a nice way out for many. Plus what's left to worry about, really, if the person is not long for this world? Addiction? Death? It's coming anyway, so just go for it, up the amounts if it's needed, and if that's the end then? Oh well.

[NurseNell]

That grey area might be a nice way out for many. Plus what's left to worry about, really, if the person is not long for this world? Addiction? Death? It's coming anyway, so just go for it, up the amounts if it's needed, and if that's the end then? Oh well.

The addiction angle always makes me angry. Hello, stage IV cancer, terminal soon, she needs pain management, who the hell cares about addiction!

Actually, there are many doctors who d get it and have for years. They quietly go about prescribing morphine or dilaudid for people with end stage disease, be it kidney, diabetes, cancer, whatever. Patients are in pain and they are prescribed what they need. The newer forms of pain patches and slow release narcotics have really helped a lot of people have both pain control and a good quality of life without being so doped up. But there are those health care providers who don't get it.