Euthanasia-How Can Anyone Not See This As Cruel?

[debrand]

This is the second thread that I've started about articles on this woman's blog. She has strong opinions so I will probably find a few more interesting subjects to discuss on her blog

This article starts with a statement about her friend's uncle's death in Europe.

He’s not my uncle, he’s the uncle of my dearly loved friend, Angela. He lived in Holland, and was elderly and ill, and on Friday, March 25 (the Feast of the Annunciation – Feast of the Incarnation) “Uncle Theo†was propelled unnaturally into Eternity. Put to sleep like a dog or a cat.

I assumed that she would give some evidence about her friend's uncle. Nope. She compares his death, which was probably quick to her friend's horrifying end.

There lay my dear friend Nora, incoherent so far as we could tell, unable to eat for months because of the cancer that had ravaged her body for the past four years. But her vital signs remained strong, and when her husband tried to help her take her meds, or to perform some other service for her, she fought back.

Pain was compounded by fear. Severe depression, depression that had required electroshock therapy more than once, had left her bereft of hope. “I’m scared,†she grabbed my arm on one of my visits. “I’m so scared.â€

Father had pointed to a statue of an angel and told her to remember her Guardian Angel. “You are not alone,†he promised her. “God loves you.†But she had become unable to hold on to that hope for more than the time it took to sing the refrain of “Be Not Afraid.â€

“There’s no point to this!†her husband protested during one of my visits. The lingering, with the impossibility of providing true comfort, or to see how long the ordeal would last, took a toll on everyone. It always does.

But there is a point. And I saw it in the family – in Nora’s husband as he persisted in getting pain meds down her throat for as long a time as she could swallow, in her children as they came and kept vigil with their mother. Love was perfecting them – they might not see it right away; it might take years before they can point to this time in their lives and say, as I now can after my mother’s horrific death from lung cancer, twenty years ago: “We were all made better people because of this.â€

I don't usually have strong aversions to the bloggers that we cover. Most of them, I have compassion for even as I strongly disagree with their beliefs. However, this woman sounds like a cold hearted bitch. This entire account angered me. Why couldn't the woman be given enough medication to ease her into death?

How selfish to watch someone suffer so that you can be a better person.

lauralowder.wordpress.com/2011/03/26/twodeaths/

[Soldier of the One]

Euthanasia is a sticky issue to me. I used to be more in support of it than I am nowadays but I always appreciate wrestling with the issue. But in this case it seems pretty blatantly obvious to me: if the terminal patient expressed a wish to die and was in unbearable pain, then that wish should have been granted. That is the ultimately autonomy of the human being.

To use other people's suffering as a yardstick for your own 'spiritual growth' is morally reprehensible.

[Buzzard]

I say this now so there is no doubt of my desires. KILL ME. If I cannot communicate, if I require pain meds to just breathe, if I am not aware of my surroundings, if I have lost the ability to do all that I love... UP THE MORPHINE. I do not want to live like that. I do not want to be a person made "perfect" by love or some bullshit. If all thats keeping me alive are IVs and machines then its over.

[Soldier of the One]

Correct me if I am wrong but... 'upping the morphine' is palliative care, not euthanasia. Right?

[shesinsane]

He’s not my uncle, he’s the uncle of my dearly loved friend, Angela. He lived in Holland, and was elderly and ill, and on Friday, March 25 (the Feast of the Annunciation – Feast of the Incarnation) “Uncle Theo†was propelled unnaturally into Eternity. Put to sleep like a dog or a cat.

Interesting. By comparison, when my grandmother was slowing, painfully dying of cancer, she was envious of dogs and cats because they could be put to sleep and spared a lot of suffering.

[Minerva]

It's frustrating how she erases both patients' agency from that. "He was put to sleep..." Yeah, and that's because he chose it! More power to you if your convictions are strong enough that you would suffer for them the way her friend did, but it's certainly not for everyone. Let for alone someone who doesn't share her religion, wouldn't get anything out of lingering like that, and yet is forced to die that way because of religions like hers.

[Buzzard]

Correct me if I am wrong but... 'upping the morphine' is palliative care, not euthanasia. Right?

A good way to go at that point is an OD. Up it to a certain point and you stop breathing.

[Minerva]

Correct me if I am wrong but... 'upping the morphine' is palliative care, not euthanasia. Right?

When my grandfather was dying in hospital, they couldn't up his morphine past a certain dose because it might kill him.

[Soldier of the One]

Yeah well, no-one's religion/philosophy has any place legislating someone's decisions outside of that religion/philosophy.

And I think 'agency' is the key word here. My reservations regarding euthanasia are not because I believe it is 'wrong' for someone to decide their own death but are based on my fear that economic (and other) factors may come into play.

[brashchick]

Roxanal (liquid morphine) is proof there is mercy in the universe.

[latraviata]

Interesting. By comparison, when my grandmother was slowing, painfully dying of cancer, she was envious of dogs and cats because they could be put to sleep and spared a lot of suffering.

Uncle Theo was propelled unnaturally into eternity at his own request in writing, nuncupative and completely compos mentis, he had to be, because that is the law in the Netherlands.

There is no way, that the Dutch law allows docters and relatives to put people down like animals without their consent. Nobody ever offers or suggest euthanasia, the initiative is with the patient.

Santorum already tried to fool his potential voters with these nonsense.

[fundifugee]

Correct me if I am wrong but... 'upping the morphine' is palliative care, not euthanasia. Right?

Euthanasia is under debate again here in Canada. The palliative care folks say that if good palliative care is available, then euthanasia is not needed. I see their point. I do some palliative care and it is one of the areas of my practice that I find most gratifying. If someone is suffering, I do not hesitate to do whatever needs to be done drug wise even if it will shorten their lives, if that is their wish. (Some people want to be awake and alert despite their suffering and therefore do not want the drugs because not many of them help with pain without making folks very sleepy).

It is still illegal to euthanize people here. If that changes, I am of two minds whether I'd be able to do it. I think I could, and the major event that pushed me off the fence in that department was a favourite aunt, suffering from extensive cancer, ready to check herself into palliative care, said to me that she wished euthanasia was an option for her. I have great respect for her opinion as a long sufferer of cancer and pain, and as a very thoughtful and, interestingly, religious person (she has degrees in theology, can read Bible in Hebrew and Greek, and obtained four bachelor's degrees and a masters while disabled from her various courses of cancer chemo).

[NurseNell]

Correct me if I am wrong but... 'upping the morphine' is palliative care, not euthanasia. Right?

That is how I've always understood it. I've worked with doctors willing to give the amount of morphine needed for pain relief as well as doctors who refuse because they believe they are contributing to death. My mother had a morphine drip that she could control, she had a lot of pain. Her lung cancer was cutting off her bronchi, breathing was difficult. No one should have to suffer from pain just because someone doesn't want to use morphine. The morphine drips they have today are so much better than years ago when we gave morphine by injection. Now they can get a very small single dose as often as every ten to fifteen minutes. With injections we gave a larger dose that knocked you out but then wore off before it could be repeated.

I believe in palliative care. I don't believe in euthanasia. But I do understand being terminally ill, in a lot of pain, and taking matters into my own hands.

[desertvixen]

I say this now so there is no doubt of my desires. KILL ME. If I cannot communicate, if I require pain meds to just breathe, if I am not aware of my surroundings, if I have lost the ability to do all that I love... UP THE MORPHINE. I do not want to live like that. I do not want to be a person made "perfect" by love or some bullshit. If all thats keeping me alive are IVs and machines then its over.

This. It's not "loving" to keep someone on in that state.

[latraviata]

Euthanasia is under debate again here in Canada. The palliative care folks say that if good palliative care is available, then euthanasia is not needed. I see their point. I do some palliative care and it is one of the areas of my practice that I find most gratifying. If someone is suffering, I do not hesitate to do whatever needs to be done drug wise even if it will shorten their lives, if that is their wish. (Some people want to be awake and alert despite their suffering and therefore do not want the drugs because not many of them help with pain without making folks very sleepy).

It is still illegal to euthanize people here. If that changes, I am of two minds whether I'd be able to do it. I think I could, and the major event that pushed me off the fence in that department was a favourite aunt, suffering from extensive cancer, ready to check herself into palliative care, said to me that she wished euthanasia was an option for her. I have great respect for her opinion as a long sufferer of cancer and pain, and as a very thoughtful and, interestingly, religious person (she has degrees in theology, can read Bible in Hebrew and Greek, and obtained four bachelor's degrees and a masters while disabled from her various courses of cancer chemo).

Yes, palliative sedation is a highly preferred option in the Netherlands too, more so than active euthanasia.

[ladypuglover]

I sit on the fence because of my own family history.

When my grandmother was dieing from brain cancer, she begged my grandfather to kill her. He loved her with his whole heart but couldn't do it. My cousin C was alone in the hospital room with my grandmother when my grandmother suddenly passed away. Her morphine drip was turned all the way up. Mercy? Murder?

When my father was dieing from oat cell cancer he also died from a sudden death but this time it was his 2nd wife who was with him. My father was in intense pain and often not coherent but was for one breif moment that I, my next up sister, my 4th son 9still a preemie at the time) and my mother were able to say our good byes to him. His 2nd wife found out and my dad died that night from a morphine overdose and a broken spine. Murder or Mercy?

My grandfather, same one as before, was removed from his own home at the age of 93. He was still able to drive legally and had all the same functions as he always did. My aunt put him into a nursing home because she said he was dieing and then my aunt and cousins prepared for his funeral. I kept asking how do you all know the exact date of his death and planned everything around said date when the man is alive, well and kicking. My grandfather died from a morphine over dose that night which was the death date my aunt said he would die. Cousin C was the only one in the room when he passed away suddenly. Murder?

I'm all for it in cases like my grandmother's. I don't know how I feel about my father's and my grandfather's was plain old fashioned murder.

[NurseNell]

I sit on the fence because of my own family history.

When my grandmother was dieing from brain cancer, she begged my grandfather to kill her. He loved her with his whole heart but couldn't do it. My cousin C was alone in the hospital room with my grandmother when my grandmother suddenly passed away. Her morphine drip was turned all the way up. Mercy? Murder?

When my father was dieing from oat cell cancer he also died from a sudden death but this time it was his 2nd wife who was with him. My father was in intense pain and often not coherent but was for one breif moment that I, my next up sister, my 4th son 9still a preemie at the time) and my mother were able to say our good byes to him. His 2nd wife found out and my dad died that night from a morphine overdose and a broken spine. Murder or Mercy?

My grandfather, same one as before, was removed from his own home at the age of 93. He was still able to drive legally and had all the same functions as he always did. My aunt put him into a nursing home because she said he was dieing and then my aunt and cousins prepared for his funeral. I kept asking how do you all know the exact date of his death and planned everything around said date when the man is alive, well and kicking. My grandfather died from a morphine over dose that night which was the death date my aunt said he would die. Cousin C was the only one in the room when he passed away suddenly. Murder?

I'm all for it in cases like my grandmother's. I don't know how I feel about my father's and my grandfather's was plain old fashioned murder.

Wow, I'd say C is a murderer. Morphine drips now are pretty hard to deliberately overdose someone with. Why was your grandfather on a morphine drip when he was alive and well. That case at least should have been investigated by the medical examiner.

BTW, oat cell cancer is now more often called small cell lung cancer. It's what my Mom died of too.

[ladypuglover]

Nurse Nell, we as in my side of the family tried to get medical examiner on all 3 cases but my aunt prevented us every step of the way. My dad's 2nd wife went as far to ban us from my father's funeral because she just knew that we already had found out how my father died. Add in we are talking about a small back water town that looks at all non-residents as from the devil, well we didn't get very far. At least we have the comfort that when my cousins get tired of their folks living and want their inheritence, they know what to do as my aunt had a heavy hand in it all 3 times.

[Little Miss Alien]

I sit on the fence because of my own family history.

When my grandmother was dieing from brain cancer, she begged my grandfather to kill her. He loved her with his whole heart but couldn't do it. My cousin C was alone in the hospital room with my grandmother when my grandmother suddenly passed away. Her morphine drip was turned all the way up. Mercy? Murder?

When my father was dieing from oat cell cancer he also died from a sudden death but this time it was his 2nd wife who was with him. My father was in intense pain and often not coherent but was for one breif moment that I, my next up sister, my 4th son 9still a preemie at the time) and my mother were able to say our good byes to him. His 2nd wife found out and my dad died that night from a morphine overdose and a broken spine. Murder or Mercy?

My grandfather, same one as before, was removed from his own home at the age of 93. He was still able to drive legally and had all the same functions as he always did. My aunt put him into a nursing home because she said he was dieing and then my aunt and cousins prepared for his funeral. I kept asking how do you all know the exact date of his death and planned everything around said date when the man is alive, well and kicking. My grandfather died from a morphine over dose that night which was the death date my aunt said he would die. Cousin C was the only one in the room when he passed away suddenly. Murder?

I'm all for it in cases like my grandmother's. I don't know how I feel about my father's and my grandfather's was plain old fashioned murder.

Wow, I would not like to be left alone in a room with your cousin C!

I'm another fence-sitter. My own experience is that a very dear friend committed suicide, assisted by her mother, and her mother was arrested and tried for murder. It was quite a big case here in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Gilderdale

But she had such little quality of life. She had been dying by degrees, since she was 14, for 17 years. She lived in constant pain, couldn't eat or drink, couldn't speak, could barely move. As each year passed, she suffered more and more multi-systemic failure. She was tired, she couldn't fight any more. When she told us (her internet friends, as referenced in the above linked page) of her intentions, we were all supportive. We were sad, but none of us tried to talk her out of it. We couldn't make the argument about all she had to live for, because in all honesty, the future looked just as bleak. She never told us when 'it' would be, just that it would. We were still all rocked when we found out. Every year we remember her, and even just randomly, when we want to text, or email etc. We take comfort in the fact she is no longer suffering, but I'm sure we'd all prefer it if she wasn't suffering AND still with us.

I find that all I can do is respect people's wishes. It's not right to 'help' someone to die when they've not asked for it, but when they have clearly expressed their wishes, then it is there life to do with what they please.

Ask me again when someone I love is begging me to help them end their life though, I might not find it so easy to respect wishes when faced with that choice.

[NurseNell]

Nurse Nell, we as in my side of the family tried to get medical examiner on all 3 cases but my aunt prevented us every step of the way. My dad's 2nd wife went as far to ban us from my father's funeral because she just knew that we already had found out how my father died. Add in we are talking about a small back water town that looks at all non-residents as from the devil, well we didn't get very far. At least we have the comfort that when my cousins get tired of their folks living and want their inheritence, they know what to do as my aunt had a heavy hand in it all 3 times.

Wow, this is so wrong. How does she sleep at night? I wonder if Ann Rule would look at the cases?

[NurseNell]

I'm another fence-sitter. My own experience is that a very dear friend committed suicide, assisted by her mother, and her mother was arrested and tried for murder. It was quite a big case here in the UK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Gilderdale

What a sad case. I'm really interested in what link, if indeed there was a link, between her symptoms and receiving BCG. Did she have an autopsy to see if they could find a more specific diagnosis? I'm going to look for the mother's book.

[desertvixen]

When my grandmother was dieing from brain cancer, she begged my grandfather to kill her. He loved her with his whole heart but couldn't do it. My cousin C was alone in the hospital room with my grandmother when my grandmother suddenly passed away. Her morphine drip was turned all the way up. Mercy? Murder?

If one of my close relatives begged me to kill them, I have to tell you that I would at least seriously consider it, especially if it was someone who had previously expressed their desires not to be kept on in that state prior to illness.

Watching my grandmother die of lung cancer as a pre-teen was enough to make up my mind, as well as my mother's. In fact, my mother has listed me as her next-of-kin for medical because she is afraid that my stepfather would not be able to carry out her wishes.

[Little Miss Alien]

What a sad case. I'm really interested in what link, if indeed there was a link, between her symptoms and receiving BCG. Did she have an autopsy to see if they could find a more specific diagnosis? I'm going to look for the mother's book.

Yes, her autopsy showed lesions of her brain and spinal cord consistent with her diagnosis of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis. Which the UK still insists does not even exist! :angry-cussingblack:

[valsa]

If one of my close relatives begged me to kill them, I have to tell you that I would at least seriously consider it, especially if it was someone who had previously expressed their desires not to be kept on in that state prior to illness.

Same here. My mother and I have an agreement regarding this issue (neither one of us wants to suffer) and, depending on the relative, I'd consider it in other cases.

I think I'm kind of weird though. I'd only be willing to do it for someone I loved. If my father, whom I hate, was in a condition where he asked me to put him out of his misery, I'd wish him a very, very long life and leave.

[NurseNell]

Yes, her autopsy showed lesions of her brain and spinal cord consistent with her diagnosis of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis. Which the UK still insists does not even exist! :angry-cussingblack:

I'd never heard of it until I read it in your link. I'm on the waiting list for the book. I'd order it tonight but my debit card was stolen so I'm waiting for a new one.