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Fundy-lite FB friend: no bikini for my 4-year old


camdendayton

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Something probably reacted with the chlorine or some joker brought in a bit of green food coloring and squirted it in. Mineral contamination sounds like the most likely bet, a quick google search lets me know this is a known issue for pools.

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See I find all of these suits UBER cute!! And most/all of them are 2 piece ;)

Have you or any other FJers shopped from this website? Because their stuff is cheap and my 4 yo would kill for this:

swimwear-set-girls-halter-leopard-one-piece-2711968-showa.jpg

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On all the princess talk, yea it's a stupid comment. What I don't get, and maybe just because I grew up with parents that were not affectionate, so I never got the "little princess" routine, but why are seemingly all little girls obsessed with being princesses? Shouldn't all us ebil feminists convinced people that being a princess isn't such a wonderful thing by now? ;-) Maybe I'm a feminazi but I wouldn't want me (un-concieved) daughter to aspire to be a princess.

I don't think it's the kids so much any more as the parents. When I was expecting and on parenting forums, the amount of women who were having girls whose signatures declared "Mummy to a PRINCESS!" (usually with as many obnoxious blinkies as possible) wound me up terribly.

I decided that if I had a girl, there was to be a blanket ban on all clothing that declared her to be a princess, or alluded to any kind of royalty. Similarly, when I found out I was having a boy, after breathing a sigh of relief, I announced a blanket ban on anything saying 'monster' or 'trouble' etc.

I was right to do that. I have a wonderfully sensitive, creative little boy. He's not above getting up to mischief, but I would never call him a 'monster'. He prefers being called a spaceman right now!

There is a real culture now, that girls are all princesses, and I think it's damaging. We're breeding a culture of girls who think they're super special, and owed something by the world, in exchange for doing nothing. They're spoilt, selfish, and care about looking 'good' (debateable), getting rich quick, through marriage (WAGs, anyone?), or reality TV.

Thankfully, the feminists are reproducing too, and I hope that they bring up girls (and boys!) to believe they can do whatever they want. I know if I ever have a daughter, that's the route I will take.

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My 4 yo is a princess type and I totally indulge it. Surprisingly, even my mother indulges it; the woman who dressed me in overalls and forbade Barbies took R for her first mani-pedi. But I wouldn't push it on a girl and my other daughter is not a princess at all, unless you are talking about a dictator-style princess in camo.

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The reason why I fell in love with princesses because my mom had given a really cool book called practical princesses who were always the ones who saved the kingdom and saved the prince.

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Princes ... 0819309680

Anyway, I just thought princesses and kingdoms were made up things like dragons. So round the time I was 8 or so the world was introduced to Lady Dianna who would later marry prince Charles. I freaked out and started screaming princesses are real and basicly doing the OMG dance that little girls do. My mother asked what the big deal was and I said that mermaids, unicorns and fairies must be real too! :pray:

Maybe that is the big deal why little girls like princesses now days?

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I don't think it's the kids so much any more as the parents. When I was expecting and on parenting forums, the amount of women who were having girls whose signatures declared "Mummy to a PRINCESS!" (usually with as many obnoxious blinkies as possible) wound me up terribly. ...

My parents were very affectionate, and had 6 girls and 2 boys, but none of the daughters were ever referred to as a princess, nor treated as a little princess. My older sisters were into horses and not really into dolls or dressing up, me and my 2 closest girl siblings were very much into dressing up and play make up, and my mom indulged that by providing us with lots of pretty clothes from her closet, costume jewelry, old purses, etc. Still, we weren't really dressing up to be a princess, but just to be fancy and have pretty glittery things on.

My dad is extremely egalitarian, especially for an old-fashioned dude who believed the husband should work and the wife should be home to raise the children. I remember hauling wood, helping my dad change the oil on the car, herding sheep, putting on mud boots and cleaning out the chicken coop (ugh!), and all sorts of anti-princess activities growing up.

If I had a daughter, I would have loved to buy her pretty and colorful outfits, and I must confess that my female cat gets told "aren't you so pretty?" all the time. So I definitely have the "my little girl is such a cutie pie" gene in me. But I've dealt with real life grown up "princesses" and find them obnoxious beyond belief, with a huge sense of entitlement. I consider the mother of bathroom baby a grown up princess. That's why I don't favor treating girls like little princesses.

OMG, this thread is making me wistful because I didn't have a daughter! It's my menopausal hormones kicking in dammit!

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My daughter was not into princess stuff at all. She went into a male dominated field of land surveying. Her 7 y.o. daughter goes ice fishing, regular fishing, helps dress the deer her Mom and Dad shoot or get with a bow and arrow. She has her first small hunting bow, and for Christmas she got a Red Ryder BB gun. Her sister is only 15 months but I doubt she'll be into princess stuff either. For which I'm thankful.

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Maybe it's just my daughter and her friends, but surely y'all have seen a serious rise in Self Rescuing Princesses? They're hardcore, sparkly, and will totally kick your ass. Don't let the rhinestone pink hoodie fool you. :twisted:

My daughter hunts, fishes, plays softball, and is a junior green belt in karate. I'm not bragging (much). Just pointing that anymore, princess looking girl does not equal cream puff.

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Anyway, I just thought princesses and kingdoms were made up things like dragons.

That was my impression, too. My early childhood predated the glitter-sparkly-blingness of modern girlhood. I suppose little girls dressed up as princesses in the 80s, but I can't remember there being a focus on wanting to be treated like real-life royalty. Actually, I find the whole "diva" trend more annoying than the super-pink princess brigade. Both seem like they are training girls to become obsessed with physical appearance, the beauty industry (makeup, fashion, etc.) and adult pop culture, not to mention the notion of wanting to be financially supported by men.

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Re my earlier post. There's a definite difference between little girls going through the princess phase and liking princesses (hell, I still love Disney films, as misogynistic as the 'classics' are).

Liking princesses and playing make believe is one thing. Parents raising girls from infancy to believe they are princesses breeds a sense of entitlement, which we are seeing in more and more young women today. I'm only 5-10 years older than some of the self-proclaimed princesses/divas seen on reality tv, but it could be 50 years for all the difference there is!

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I'm only 5-10 years older than some of the self-proclaimed princesses/divas seen on reality tv, but it could be 50 years for all the difference there is!

If your argument hinges upon reality TV representing the norm, there's a problem.

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If your argument hinges upon reality TV representing the norm, there's a problem.

Not at all. I realise that's not the norm. Reality tv is far from the norm, but the more that women are presented on reality tv in that way, the more young girls will think that's how they should be. Because that's what's presented to them as 'the norm'. An adult can (usually) reason that that's not really the norm. But a teen or pre teen? Not so much. And the more programmes that come out presenting things as the norm the more it's going to encroach on our culture. And then it will become the norm.

In my personal experience, there are a lot of women out there who refer to their daughters as princesses (people on facebook, on other forums, the Mums at my son's school), and the evidence of clothing manufacturers pandering to this by making as many pink, sparkly, clothes emblazoned with the word "Princess" as is humanly possible. So it's already creeping in to our culture. Women don't wear just veils at their wedding any more - they wear tiaras too, because they want to "look like a princess". If parents constantly refer to their daughters as princesses then they're bound to be affected in some way by that. My ex MIL brought her kids up to believe that they were better than everyone else. Now in their 30s, they believe the world owes them a living, they both haemorrhage money and neither has got beyond a minimum wage job, all the while believing themselves to be above everyone else. Confidence is one thing, delusions are another.

I realise that this is all anacdata! Which is why I prefaced it with "In my personal experience", but I do believe that the very fact that we are seeing more and more items identifying young girls as princesses, that goes beyond dress ups and make believe, shows that this is becoming more normal than not.

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Emmiedahl - I have not, but I loved that one as well!! :) I'd have to see it on a kid to see if I like it as much in person, but I thought it was super cute!! :)

If we have little girls they are going to be decked out *laugh* Although, knowing how my life tends to go God will probably send me a tomboy who likes camo and crew cuts and I'll have to adapt. :-D :-)

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An adult can (usually) reason that that's not really the norm. But a teen or pre teen? Not so much.

Are you suggesting that people under the age of 20 are completely incapable of reason and logic, or, heck, even basic value judgments?

Women don't wear just veils at their wedding any more - they wear tiaras too, because they want to "look like a princess".

And what's new about that? The only reason for our "traditional" wedding attire is because that's what Victoria wore at her own wedding and everybody wanted to copy her style.

If parents constantly refer to their daughters as princesses then they're bound to be affected in some way by that.

My parents constantly referred to me and my sister as a "pumpkin" and a "peanut", but I don't think either one of us acts like produce. At least not most days.

But you know, there's an easy way to see who's more likely correct here. By now there have been longitudinal studies on the attitudes of generation... gosh, what letter are we up to? Well, the generation of "college-aged" kids on Reality TV. So one of us can google it (probably you, I have to go grocery shopping) and see if there's any evidence that, as a whole, this generation feels more entitled than previous ones.

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Are you suggesting that people under the age of 20 are completely incapable of reason and logic, or, heck, even basic value judgments?

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A toddler or a preschooler wearing a bikini is just not a big deal to me. My teenager with her newly developed figure is a whole 'nother issue.

This. If you think a child looks sexual, you may have issues yourself. There are some particular items of kids clothing that try to sexualize kids- like t-shirts that say "golddigger'- but just a bikini as a clothing item doesn't have to be anything but cute.

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Oh for goodness sake, of course I'm not! But the fact remains that there are more young women who aspire to be glamour models, rich wives and other objects than ever before. And before you come back to me, I'm well aware of there being those who conversely aspire to be doctors and lawyers.

You say this and you say this and you say it, but where is the evidence? Where is the proof for your assertions? You have none, and you act proud of this fact!

And if you didn't mean that pre-teens and teens are incapable of reasoning, then you certainly should not have said that.

Tiaras were never part of traditional wedding attire. Veils were. Tiaras have only gained popularity (in the UK at least) in the last decade. As has the 'princess for a day' concept.

So prior to the past decade women never expected to feel special on their theoretically one-and-only wedding day? They didn't expect to be the center of attention?

Or are you saying that "princess for a day" means something other than "center of attention for a single day"?

In our society, the term princess is value laden and denotes specialness.

And you think that pet names between a parent and a child are crucial to determining a child's lifelong personality? But only in some circumstances and not in others, by some rule known only to you?

However, I am referring to my contemporary parents, who have children aged 5 and under.

No, you're not. Or if you are, you've basically just changed the subject. You talk about women on their wedding days - well, five year olds aren't getting married. You talk about your 30-something ex and ex sibling-in-law - they're not five years old either. You talk about the "divas" on reality TV, who are only 5 - 10 years younger than you are. How are any of these people five years old?

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You say this and you say this and you say it, but where is the evidence? Where is the proof for your assertions? You have none, and you act proud of this fact!

This covers my statement about girls aspiring to be glamour models:

"...to illustrate current debates about objectification and

agency in mainstream commercialized sex, and situate this alongside evidence

of a rise in cosmetic surgery and suggestions that young women increasingly

view glamour modelling and lap/pole dancing as attractive career options,

embedded in the discourse of empowerment."

Glamour modelling and the marketing of self-sexualization : Critical reflections

I don't know where you got me being proud of anything from, to be perfectly honest.

And if you didn't mean that pre-teens and teens are incapable of reasoning, then you certainly should not have said that.

Well, I certainly wasn't making any sweeping generalisations, I'm sure there are some who aren't, as well as some who are. But this one highlights that teens may be in part influenced by what they see in movies and on tv, which push strong messages of what young girls 'should be':

"The period of life referred to as emerging adulthood is a particularly

unique phase of identity development,^ during which time media messages

may serve as one source of information used to make life choices."

Mean Girls? The Influence of Gender Portrayals in Teen Movies on Emerging Adults Gender-Based Attitudes and Beliefs

So prior to the past decade women never expected to feel special on their theoretically one-and-only wedding day? They didn't expect to be the center of attention?

Or are you saying that "princess for a day" means something other than "center of attention for a single day"?

No, and no again. But there has been a huge surge in the wedding industry in the past 10 years or so, and with this has come the notions of "princess for a day" and "it's her day" as well as the rise of the Bridezillas (who are even glorified by having their own tv shows). I have no scientific studies to back this up, but I have worked in the wedding industry and have heard first hand, on hundreds of occasions that weddings are all about the bride, "it's her day", "she deserves to be a princess for the day". Weddings are about the couple. I'm sorry, but I see weddings as a celebration of love and commitment, not an opportunity for a woman to take centre stage. There are plenty of other occasions for that - birthdays, graduations, hell even celebrating getting a new job! As far as I was aware people on this forum are free to share their personal experiences of things and do so regularly. At this point, I was simply sharing mine, which was why I prefaced things by saying "In my experience".

And you think that pet names between a parent and a child are crucial to determining a child's lifelong personality? But only in some circumstances and not in others, by some rule known only to you?

Where are you getting this from?! I am not talking about pet names. I am talking about parents who have proudly declared that their child is a princess, should be treated as such and go as far as to dress their child in clothes that say things like "Princess in training". And the huge rise in products that both caters to this market and perpetuates it. You are the one who seems to be wilfully misunderstanding here. There is a difference between a pet name (as in your case, Pumpkin and Peanut) and telling your child she is a princess. This article references the "Princess Problem", alluding to 'princess parenting':

Addressing the Princess Problem

No, you're not. Or if you are, you've basically just changed the subject. You talk about women on their wedding days - well, five year olds aren't getting married. You talk about your 30-something ex and ex sibling-in-law - they're not five years old either. You talk about the "divas" on reality TV, who are only 5 - 10 years younger than you are. How are any of these people five years old?

I'm giving examples of how this culture has evolved. From my ex MILs parenting, raising entitled children in the 80s, to my contemporaries, perhaps raised in similar fashion, who are getting married (as a princess)_and then having daughters (who they then declare to be princesses), who are growing into the divas we are seeing on tv, further influencing young girls.

This one is long, but is an excellent discussion of how girls are socialised to be princesses in the traditional form, then having to make the leap to being sexy, and all the while having expectations that if they act as princesses, they will end up with the princess lifestyle:

Investigating Female Identity Formation: From Fairy Tales to Fabulous Lives

Telling young girls they are princesses is ultimately damaging, because it is a form of oppression - act a certain way, then you'll get the guy and the fabulous lifestyle. This is a great summary of a book on how princess culture can be ultimately damaging:

An excellent summary of the book "Cinderella Ate My Daughter"

This one explains how girls go from cute princesses to having to find a 'sexy' role in trying to keep a man's interest and approval:

Men and the Sexualization of Young Girls

The reason why I feel this is important, and more than just a 'pet name' issue, is exactly what the initial post was about - the Grandmother advising that "Princesses don't wear bikinis". This is a prime example of early socialisation into specific gender rolse, as noted in some of the above studies, that princesses are virtuous, gentle, kind and modest, and by following all those rules a girl can herself become a princess. But as the studies also show, these girls later have to find a way to keep men's attention, and that is by behaving in an overtly sexualised way, objectifying themselves, which is why we are seeing a rising culture of girls who believe they have to be blonde, thin, big boobs, small waist to be the perfect princess. Ultimately, the life they end up with may not meet their expectations, which may be damaging to their sense of identity and self worth.

In fundie culture it may be different, girls are raised in the princess role as virtuous, gentle, kind, and modest, but instead of becoming sexy, the do not, they stay the perpetual princess, waiting for their Prince Charming (see also: Sarah Malley), and when they do get him, they don't have the fabulous lifestyle promised, but instead face a lifetime of drudgery and childbearing.

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This. If you think a child looks sexual, you may have issues yourself. There are some particular items of kids clothing that try to sexualize kids- like t-shirts that say "golddigger'- but just a bikini as a clothing item doesn't have to be anything but cute.

Hmm. Well, I agree in theory, but I would sure be an annoyed teen if I'd grown up wearing bikinis and then was suddenly not allowed to. I'd feel I was being punished for growing up.

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My little girl's bathing suit last summer was a tankini, ironically with princesses on it! She liked it and I thought she was adorable. She was 2 1/2 at the time.

262590_2322499590285_1483465036_32701001_3811106_n.jpg

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Anyone more interested in the Princess thing should read Cinderella Ate my Daughter it's not just mother who are forcing the whole Princess label on their daughters that are having little girls become obcessed with princesses but it's becoming a bit of a stage that many little girls go through during their preschool years.

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If/when I ever have kids, I would probably go with the shorts and swim shirt thing, mostly for sun protection. Everyone in my family has what I call "red-haired person skin" and one sunburnt back as a teenager was enough to make me NEVER want to wear a skimpy swimsuit again.

I have "red haired person skin" too, but I find that wearing a t-shirt and shorts while trying to swim is very difficult. I love to go to the city pool and swim laps in the summer, but I just coat myself with high SPF sunscreen every so often. Otherwise I burn and freckle.

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Hmm. Well, I agree in theory, but I would sure be an annoyed teen if I'd grown up wearing bikinis and then was suddenly not allowed to. I'd feel I was being punished for growing up.

How my mom dealt with it was that she knew we were growing up, and would have to make our own choices. I often had to get one pieces anyway (when we could find one that fit, I have a long torso) for certain activities that required them, but instead of banning bikinis, we had a conversation about changing bodies, ect. And it was nothing that caused image issues. (I had enough of those from people who thought I had an eating disorder, nope, just was a skinny kid!) If I wanted a bikini, it was no big deal. My dad didn't like it, but he didn't have final approval on our clothes.

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