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So your friend is a closet creationist...


AudreyE

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Guest Anonymous
When I think of it, she and I don't have much in common at all except for our ages, the fact that we grew up in the same state up north, and the fact that we're both tragically lonely down here. Of course, the first town I moved to here was so rural, and the number of educated 20- and 30-somethings in the area was so low, that I had some friends with whom I not only had nothing in common, but also with whom I had to be careful not to use big words or to discuss concepts that one would probably only encounter in college.

I will definitely continue to spend time with her, but it is very hard to hide so much of who I am, and I'm sure she feels the same. Also, I'm afraid there might be something uglier there if I scratch the surface, like homophobia (a real deal breaker). I dunno. Maybe she'll save me from execution in 20 years when the American Taliban rounds up all the liberals who posted on Free Jinger.

I just don't understand how she can be a nurse and not believe in the one idea that underlies all modern biology...

Ouch. I've never attended college, but I think I keep up just fine with big words and concepts. My formal education is seriously lacking when compared to many of the posters here and I do feel insecure about that at times, but lots of intelligent people don't/can't/haven't yet been able to pursue higher education. Many of us still love learning and knowledge, and it seems that most people are surprised to find that I don't have a degree.

Anyhow, I think you're painting with a broad brush in regards to that statement.

***I think college is awesome and important and I would love to get myself at least a B.A. before I die - but I think that motivated people can learn and be well-rounded outside of it, too.

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Ouch. I've never attended college, but I think I keep up just fine with big words and concepts. My formal education is seriously lacking when compared to many of the posters here and I do feel insecure about that at times, but lots of intelligent people don't/can't/haven't yet been able to pursue higher education. Many of us still love learning and knowledge, and it seems that most people are surprised to find that I don't have a degree.

Anyhow, I think you're painting with a broad brush in regards to that statement.

***I think college is awesome and important and I would love to get myself at least a B.A. before I die - but I think that motivated people can learn and be well-rounded outside of it, too.

Degrees aren't everything. yes they're awesome, and great and you gain "world experience" but let me be honest. My husband has an associates, and makes double what I make when I'm working. No lie.

For people like me, whose parents kept her crazy sheltered, college was a a huge help not from an academic standpoint, but a social standpoint. I had to learn to form opinions of my own. ANd I did. Which is why I think that the Duggar kids are being sorely cheated.

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Ouch. I've never attended college, but I think I keep up just fine with big words and concepts. My formal education is seriously lacking when compared to many of the posters here and I do feel insecure about that at times, but lots of intelligent people don't/can't/haven't yet been able to pursue higher education. Many of us still love learning and knowledge, and it seems that most people are surprised to find that I don't have a degree.

Anyhow, I think you're painting with a broad brush in regards to that statement.

***I think college is awesome and important and I would love to get myself at least a B.A. before I die - but I think that motivated people can learn and be well-rounded outside of it, too.

Yeah, that did come out really crappy, Lissar. I am genuinely and truly sorry! If I actually examine that concept, I can easily see that it's complete bull shit. I guess we just uncovered an unconscious assumption I didn't realize I had, and I don't want it. Thanks for calling me out.

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Probably half my friends are creationists. They realize I believe a blind faith in god is silly, and I realize they think it's outrageous to think we've got chromosomes in common with primates. My best friends are creationists, including my absolute best best best friend. Most of my family are creationists, the Palin-supporting, Obama-hating types. My argumentative nature really comes in handy when I'm around family. But for the most part, we just have to agree to disagree. WHat they hate more than anything is when I'll sarcastically say, "Sure, there's a god. Yeah, the trees are proof he exists. But who created god? How was he just always here?" "That's what faith is about!" "Then why is it stupid to have blind faith in the existence of ghosts, or even Santa Claus?"

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Guest Anonymous

Yeah, that did come out really crappy, Lissar. I am genuinely and truly sorry! If I actually examine that concept, I can easily see that it's complete bull shit. I guess we just uncovered an unconscious assumption I didn't realize I had, and I don't want it. Thanks for calling me out.

Thanks Audrey. I appreciate and enjoy your posts so I was taken aback by that one.

But yeah, we all have those moments and I hope that I can respond as gracefully the next time that it's me with my foot in my mouth.

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I have a number of good friends who are conservatives. I'd say the biggest problem isn't the actual creationism or other odd things that are believed, but that a few of them occasionally drop some really hateful, ignorant, judgmental shit on me. And I don't think it's stated in order to hurt me, just an off-the-cuff innocent mention of what they think. And it blows. my. mind. that they seem so genuinely confused when I get upset at a statement that atheists are immoral and shouldn't be allowed to vote or get married. Or that I'm just depressed because of my lack of belief in the afterlife. Or (fill in blank). Like anybody, some of these friends I think will be around forever, because they're good folks and I genuinely don't feel any judgment from them (I don't censor anything about my life). Some of them, I think they genuinely care about me but are too self-absorbed to understand how hurtful and judgmental they are. Most, possibly all of the YECs I know (I know some OECs and evolution-by-god people, they are in the not-imposing group and we're fine) are giant jerks (I only know a few in fairness), and I avoid them. :(

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I could be friends with a creationist, and I am in several cases. I have no problem respecting their need to believe in the disproven and impossible because I am living in a glass house on many issues in that regard.

I cannot be friends with someone who is anti-gay, racist, etc. Hatred is a deal-breaker for me, and I think it persists because our society gives people a pass instead of treating it as the great and despicable evil that it is. But people can believe in fairies or that the sky is made of blue skittles, and if we 'click' I am happy to be friends with them.

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My oldest friend is pretty conservative, her parents even more so. She's a lifelong Christian and churchgoer (but has never talked about religion or attempted to convert me). She may well be a creationist--the topic has never come up. I know she is a Republican. I think it's easier to accept different views in someone you've known and loved most of your life.

It might be hard for me to be friends with someone whose views were radically different from mine if I met that person *now*. It would be nearly impossible if that person's opinions were offensive to me. Creationism doesn't offend me, I just think it's wrong. Believing Obama is a secret Muslim communist terrorist Kenyan is offensive, and I really wouldn't get along with someone who did.

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I feel really uncomfortable making the comparison, because creationism is a much bigger thing. But we had a horrendously, horrendously messy Party split and well, there aren't even words for what happened. I try to avoid boring Americans with our parochial shit, but it was big news even in Scotland.

That was really hard afterwards. Because (and I should not say too much about this, as it falls in the category of "not my story to tell") everyone was really hurt by it. And wary. And mates and comrades were on the wrong side from me. And there was State, and it was horrible.

It completely changed how I felt about some people in a way that's not fixable. That sounds like your creationism dilemma - is this fixable or ignorable? Some things really aren't...

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I made an online friend, through a forum, over a decade ago. She was a bit older than me, married, and Christian. Despite being an athiest myself I appreciated her kindness and generosity of spirit towards everyone. I used to read her blog, if you'll excuse the pun, religiously.

As the years passed, she started having babies, then spoke about not using birth control, homeschooling and eventually, Quiverfull, although she will not call herself that as she didn't like the patriarchal side of things. Also, being in the UK singles her out as part of a miniscule minority.

I gradually stopped commenting, then read less once creationism got mentioned (guess what?!). The final straw was when I noticed a link to the Maxwells' site on the blog (I had already become a reader of NLQ by this time and was understanding fundie culture more). I still read occasionally, but I'm too wary of saying something rude or hurtful towards her. She's a lovely woman and a good Mum, but I don't find there is any common ground any more.

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Ouch. I've never attended college, but I think I keep up just fine with big words and concepts. My formal education is seriously lacking when compared to many of the posters here and I do feel insecure about that at times, but lots of intelligent people don't/can't/haven't yet been able to pursue higher education. Many of us still love learning and knowledge, and it seems that most people are surprised to find that I don't have a degree.

Anyhow, I think you're painting with a broad brush in regards to that statement.

***I think college is awesome and important and I would love to get myself at least a B.A. before I die - but I think that motivated people can learn and be well-rounded outside of it, too.

I'll admit to being one of those people. Though, to be fair, learning that you don't have a degree doesn't actually change at all how I perceive you. I still think you are an intelligent, thoughtful, well-spoken person and to be honest, that means a lot more to me than somebody having a degree. Hell, Frothy has three degrees, but I think that every single thing that comes out of his mouth is absolute moronic bullshit, so clearly degree =/= anything.

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I totally agree that education =/= intelligence, or even knowledge--much less common sense. Still, I think I understand what Audrey was trying to say. Because of differing life experiences, I often find myself editing the vocabulary and topics of conversation I use with various friends--mainly to make sure I don't come across as a show-offy snob.

ETA that one of the most intelligent and best-informed people I've ever met had only a sixth-grade education, and left school to work on his family's farm.

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I'm also an ex- creationist.

It took me years to actually admit I didn't believe it, especially because I was surrounded by creationists. In the end I went to treat lengths to try and believe it, but I was constantly assaulted by bad science ( I had done some uni biology).

The thing is, the main reasons I stopped believing in creationism were that a, I understood science, and b, that I had some evolution believing friends kindly and patiently sit me down and explain things when I had questions. If they had rejected me for it, I don't think I would have questioned it...

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I could not be friends with someone who is a creationist. I could also not be friends with someone who is homophobic or vehemently pro-life. Those are my three biggies. Apart from that, I get along with most people. But creationism is just so downright stupid that I fail to respect anyone who falls for it.

I agree with the homophobia and vehemently pro-life (or bug-eye crazy pro-life, where they want to end abortion but won't support policies like universal healthcare which actually, you, know, end abortion) but with creationists like my co-worker it's hard. She's so friendly and reasonably intelligent in other things, but she's been fed this awful strawman version of evolution and she won't acknowledge that with her year 8 science education* and refusal to engage honestly with real science texts she is not qualified to make an accurate judgement. She also teaches this to our students. It makes my head spin.

ETA* Not saying that lack of formal education is a bad thing, or makes a person any less intelligent. If you investigate an issue and approach it honestly, you can learn a lot independently - as many people here have done. But if a person has a primary school education in a subject, and then pits their intuition against experts in particular field - well. My apologies of the previous statement sounded condescending.

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Ouch. I've never attended college, but I think I keep up just fine with big words and concepts. My formal education is seriously lacking when compared to many of the posters here and I do feel insecure about that at times, but lots of intelligent people don't/can't/haven't yet been able to pursue higher education. Many of us still love learning and knowledge, and it seems that most people are surprised to find that I don't have a degree.

Anyhow, I think you're painting with a broad brush in regards to that statement.

***I think college is awesome and important and I would love to get myself at least a B.A. before I die - but I think that motivated people can learn and be well-rounded outside of it, too.

Lissar, my dad left school at 14 to work in a factory. I am the first person from my dad's family to go to university. And this has taught me smart people are everywhere, and you certainly are one.

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I'm related to a kid who's in Moody Bible School and proclaims that evolution can not be proved in any way shape or form.He believes and proclaims a inerrant interpretation of the BIble, 7 day creation, and a 6000 year old earth. When I asked him about ruins in Turkey that were carbon dated to 15,000 BC, he said that carbon dating is not a verifiable method. :angry-screaming:

I blocked him from my FB because I was told I was stupid and of course gay people are going to hell because they can't be trusted with anyone of the straight persuasion. He blocked me after I said that perhaps he needed to stop watching wrestling and calling people he disliked "Homos" just because he disliked the acting. Narrow minded little twerp. :crying-yellow:

I also told his commenting friends that perhaps if they lived a bit longer and had more life experience perhaps their attitudes might change. I was told I was too old (at 58.75) to understand their beliefs. :clap:

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The carbon dating=circular reasoning thing makes me facepalm. They have such small science knowledge that they cannot understand basic chemistry? I have explained this to small children and they get it. Children so small they "cannot be reasoned with" by fundie parents.

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I guess it would depend on the person and if you could agree to disagree. If someone is going to keep bringing up creationism to try to "convert" me towards believing in it, I don't think we would be good friends, but if they aren't pushing me on the issue and we otherwise get along, then I wouldn't end the friendship.

I had a good friend in high school who was probably fundy-lite. He went to a non-denominational Christian church and was really into his faith. But... he was also one of the kindest, most genuine people I have ever met. We clearly had different beliefs as I was Catholic but he would respectfully bow out of any debates about faith and agree to disagree. He was nice to everyone and rarely had a bad thing to say about anyone. I'm sure he believed homosexuality is wrong, abortion is murder (I think he went to a pro-life rally), etc. but he didn't push that on anyone else. We had a very "out" lesbian couple at my high school and I don't remember him saying anything homophobic. Maybe criticizing the amount of PDA they engaged in but everyone complained about that. Basically just a really nice guy. He was two grades above me and got busy in college, so we didn't really keep in touch but I wish we had. I had a huge crush on him in high school. I heard he votes democrat now though ;)

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Ouch. I've never attended college, but I think I keep up just fine with big words and concepts. My formal education is seriously lacking when compared to many of the posters here and I do feel insecure about that at times, but lots of intelligent people don't/can't/haven't yet been able to pursue higher education. Many of us still love learning and knowledge, and it seems that most people are surprised to find that I don't have a degree.

Anyhow, I think you're painting with a broad brush in regards to that statement.

***I think college is awesome and important and I would love to get myself at least a B.A. before I die - but I think that motivated people can learn and be well-rounded outside of it, too.

lissar, you have always struck me as intelligent and knowledgable. So, don't put yourself down.

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My question is this: would it bother you to find out your friend is a creationist, and would you be a big enough a-hole to hold that against her in practice?

I think if she is not trying to constantly preach at you it would work fine, so if your friend just hangs out and does not try to convert you, then just have fun!

I was a Creationist myself until two years ago. I did actually hang out with atheists and liberals of various sorts back then and I'm glad they tolerated my occasional stupid comments, although sometimes I would get a very condescending answer back and it always drove me nuts to have people treat me like I was a brainwashed idiot for believing in Creationism. I sort of was, of course, but the people who changed my mind were the ones who simply explained over time how evolution really worked – this happened online, though. Now my former best friend is so weirded out by my "believing in evolution" and changing various other beliefs that she keeps trying to preach at me a lot about not falling away and not believing lies, etc. We don't talk much anymore, which is sad, but she won't stop bringing the topics up. That friendship was pretty much mortally wounded when I changed, but quite a few others have stayed the same or gotten better because the friends are able to respect me still and I them.

If she is a good person then just enjoy the friendship. If her beliefs really bother you, you can always ask her why she believes them - the chance to explain is like crack to a Ken Ham-influenced person and just asking a few mild questions can start deeper thought quite easily.

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I could not be friends with someone who is a creationist. I could also not be friends with someone who is homophobic or vehemently pro-life. Those are my three biggies. Apart from that, I get along with most people. But creationism is just so downright stupid that I fail to respect anyone who falls for it.

I'm with you, but this is kind of a moot point because I'm not sure that I've met any creationists! One of the benefits of living near San Francisco. ;)

I don't think creationism is a dealbreaker in and of itself, but my concern is all the other beliefs that go along with it. I would assume that if someone is a creationist, then he or she also believes that homosexuality is a sin and that non-Christians are going to hell. It's kind of hard to imagine being close friends with someone who believes those things.

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Honestly, it would probably not be possible for me to be close friends with a creationist. I am a grad student and evolutionary concepts are the focus of virtually all my research interests. Anyone who doesn't believe in evolution would essentially be saying that all the work I am doing is useless and wrong, and I couldn't be friends with someone who felt that way. The ignorance about evolution in this country is astounding and continually depressing.

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Outside of a handful, every single one of my relatives believes in creationalism. My second ccousin, only 16 years old, had made the decision (with my family's backing) NOT to go to college. Apprently, they brainwash you. I was the only one of my family members to graduate college (one attempted a semster) and I am not a chrsitian. I believe in evolution, so therefore it must have been my evil, liberal professors who manipulated my mind (nevermind the fact that I argued about their beliefs long before entering college). I just find it incredibly sad that this young girl is not going to get an education, because of a fear of seeing evidence that might make her lose her faith. They also feel that even the men should not attend college.

I know many people who are christian and NOT creationalist. It's not my style, but I appreciate that they can accept science and still hold onto their faith. I do not believe it is mutually exclusive, but trying to explain that to my family is an impossible endeavor.

I do not have any creationalist friends and while I like it that way, I would not be against someone who is. I can not be friends with someone who is homophobic, racist, xenophobic, sexist, and other -isms . . .I do feel that perhaps some creationslists would be taken out of the running for one of those reasons (but that could just be a sterotype I hold).

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The carbon dating=circular reasoning thing makes me facepalm. They have such small science knowledge that they cannot understand basic chemistry? I have explained this to small children and they get it. Children so small they "cannot be reasoned with" by fundie parents.

We were talking about carbon dating in the class I'm taking on meteorites and something that struck me that fundies COULD argue with is that we assume uniformitarianism and it's, like, possible, that half-lives were different back eons ago. I mean, it's unlikely, but possible. But still, even if our exact dating system has flaws like that, it still doesn't negate the scores of other evidence that the universe did not form the way it's described in Genesis.

And of course I'm giving fundies too much credit. I'm sure they have not a fucking clue what a half-life is.

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I admit I have a hard time forming close friendships with people whose beliefs differ so much from mine, particularly when it comes to politics. It's difficult to respect someone with certain ideas (creationism, pro-life, anti-GLBTQ, anti-feminism), so while I may casually hang out with someone who holds any of these positions, it will serve as a barrier to becoming closer. It also probably doesn't help that I'm the type to wear my heart on my sleeve most of the time.

Lissar, my dad left school at 14 to work in a factory. I am the first person from my dad's family to go to university. And this has taught me smart people are everywhere, and you certainly are one.

+1. I don't have a college or university education either, and I do sometimes feel intimidated by people here. However, I like being challenged, and I find FJ a good environment for that.

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