So your friend is a closet creationist...

[AudreyE]

I moved down south not too long ago, and I've had a hard time making friends. I didn't fit in so well in the small town where I landed (although I've recently moved to a college town, and that is a bit better). I finally made a friend down here, and although she is a fiscal and social conservative, and I am a fierce liberal, we have been able to make it work just fine by avoiding topics that are too political.

We were walking a few days ago, and I was talking about how my husband likes to argue with creationists online. He is a scientist, and has infinitely more patience than I do. I was telling my friend that I think it's pointless, because creationists are too dogmatic and delusional to accept arguments based on observable facts.

Well, guess who's a creationist...

I've always thought of myself as very tolerant, and I'm dismayed by how much I'm struggling with this. My friend is educated, and I believe that it's only through a sheer act of will that an educated person can ignore the fact of evolution. I think what I've discovered here is that she is fundy-lite. I know her parents are bat-poop crazy (e.g. Obama is going to steal our bank accounts and become ultimate overlord); I guess it only makes sense.

My question is this: would it bother you to find out your friend is a creationist, and would you be a big enough a-hole to hold that against her in practice?

[debrand]

For some reason, conservatives make up the bulk of my friendship. Yes, I know a few creationists.

I usually get the shocked, "But you think that we came from monkeys?' Sometimes that same sentiment is expressed in a very sarcastic, condescending tone. "Oh, so you're a monkey?"

The best I can do is tell the person that scientist do not believe that anyone came from monkeys but that we share a common ancestor.

You might want to read up on the arguments that creationsits use because chances are, your friend will make an off the cuff comment at some point. It might be possible to open her mind just a teeny-tiny bit.

[apple1]

I don't think I even have any friends with whom I agree on everything. Actual friendship is all about accepting each other's differences.

Which differences are so big as to sever friendships? Fewer than you might think.

IMO severing friendship over this one issue is just a flip side to how some extreme fundies shun over some difference in nuance of religious belief.

[FJismyheadship]

One of my most favorite people in the world believes the world is six thousand years old. I usually avoid talking about that and other things that i dont agree with. For the most part he and I agree to disagree. I was shocked when i learned what he thought. I dont know much about either side but i do believe in evolution. I just added it to the list of things to never speak of around him. I love him a lot and he is like a dad to me so our differences dont bother me.

[LilMissMetaphor]

I don't think I even have any friends with whom I agree on everything. Actual friendship is all about accepting each other's differences.

Which differences are so big as to sever friendships? Fewer than you might think.

IMO severing friendship over this one issue is just a flip side to how some extreme fundies shun over some difference in nuance of religious belief.

This, and:

I suppose it depends on what your basis for choosing friendships is. If you just want to sit around high-fiving each other for being on Team Jacob and loving hummus, then fine. Personally I don't run people through a checklist to see if they align with my beliefs and likes beforehand.

If you have a hard time making friends, you might want to think about that.

[Avalondaughter]

I had a friend in high school I was pretty close to. She was rebellious and eventually went a little far off onto the deep end with the whole goth/wiccan thing and started snubbing me. We befriended each other again via FB and she's a born-again Christian now. I would not call her fundie, or even fundie lite, but she's still a creationist. It's one of the reasons why I tend to ignore her pleas to get together again every now and then. I just don't know what to talk about with her. She knows all too well how I feel about Christianity and political conservatism (although I think she's one of those people who might gravitate to the left if she could just stop making everything about abortion).

She does post on FB now and then about creationism and how she's teaching her children not to believe what they learn in school. (The go to public school, and she understands they're required to parrot back what they learn in science class, but she tells them it's not true.) It's just so hard to wrap my head around the fact that she feels this way - that a rational thinking person can't find a way to reconcile religious beliefs with scientific data. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

[ladidah]

Personally I don't run people through a checklist to see if they align with my beliefs and likes beforehand.

I concur.

Also, I'm a Christian who's very interested in science (as a hobby) and staunchly against creationism, which I view as not only bad science but as terrible theology. I find it hard to get over it when family and friends occasionally use creationist buzzwords like "macro-evolution"; my gut instinct is to go all diatribe-y, even if creationism isn't really the topic at hand.

However, I resist this urge in favor of just mentioning whatever small, pro-science point is socially appropriate at the time and leaving it at that. I do this because, although you'd never guess it now, I grew up emphatically creationist and had all the anti-evolution answers down pat. What started the gradual process of changing my mind was my biology teacher's gentle, focused replies to my and my creationst friends' harping on notions like "irreducible complexity" of the cell. Instead of laying into creationism, she simply explained the evidence for mitochondrial evolution leading to cellular evolution. I didn't agree with her at the time, but I learned the concept, and over a period of 5-10 years I realized that all my creationist arguments were forms of straw-grasping, and I changed my views. If, instead, my teacher had tried to take down creationism as a whole, I'm sure I would have written her off as a "liberal evolutionist." I suspect that most dyed-in-the-wool creationists will change their views, if at all, through a similarly gradual process.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I just, like with my extremely anti-abortion aunt file it in the "Things not to talk about" file and find other topics, and if the conversation seems like its headed that way, I do my ADHD best to completely veer off topic. :)

[Esther]

I could not be friends with someone who is a creationist. I could also not be friends with someone who is homophobic or vehemently pro-life. Those are my three biggies. Apart from that, I get along with most people. But creationism is just so downright stupid that I fail to respect anyone who falls for it.

[MarsGirl]

I think it works so long as the person in question is not a romantic interest. (And I know from this post it isnt.)

I dated a fundie-lite and it was a huge mistake.

But I, like Esther, could definitely not be friends with anyone who is homophobic. That's too personal. I've got too many LGBT friends to let that one pass.

[lilwriter85]

I have several relatives and a few relatives who don't believe in evolution but they aren't very vocal creationists. Online I have encountered some creationists who are annoying as hell. There were several people on a TV related message board that I use to post on who pretty much rejected the evolution theory and other scientific facts. The shit they said at times was funny. A couple of them were Kirk Cameron fans.

[ilovetchotchkes]

I think it works so long as the person in question is not a romantic interest. (And I know from this post it isnt.)

I dated a fundie-lite and it was a huge mistake.

But I, like Esther, could definitely not be friends with anyone who is homophobic. That's too personal. I've got too many LGBT friends to let that one pass.

Yeah that's been a dealbreaker for me too. My brother is gay. And when i'd hear a particular ex-friend say "its not right, its not natural" I was like "ok, SCREW YOU we're done".

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I just, like with my extremely anti-abortion aunt file it in the "Things not to talk about" file and find other topics, and if the conversation seems like its headed that way, I do my ADHD best to completely veer off topic. :)

I second this approach. If it does come up, perhaps one "we must just agree to disagree" rule-establishing short talk is ok, but then after that? If it ever comes up, just change the subject, even if out of the blue. Every. Time.

If your friend is similarly okay with the "we just won't talk about it" plan it won't come up again, but if she's actively trying to convert you over from time to time it will - in which case you can still be friends, but for your own sanity you just need to shut down all related conversation if you know it's just going to cause stress. Just change the subject. 100% of the time. Eventually most people will give up.

[zipper]

I don't think it ends a friendship- or that a friendship requires all the same beliefs and values. But I have found in my own experience that strong religious convictions are something that stop me from really allowing a deep connect with someone because I don't share them. I don't want to but I've found not sharing faith is something that will concern them about me. In general I chose to not share my personal feelings/practices one way or another. I adore my mommy group but no matter how close our connections are over kids and parenting choices our politics and convictions can leave me feeling very isolated beyond the surface. I just don't understand their values (our Mars Hill congregation mom actually disturbs me). It's not worth losing a friendship, but it's not exactly going to help intimacy flourish.

(And now I'm delurked :). I registered with the intention to do so a little back on the Purity Ball thread but then there was a snow storm and I lost my nerve. I've been reading for awhile after a search result sent me here and it has been the most freeing experience to find I'm not the only one in so many moments. I feel very safe among your snark- and I don't think I have ever before found people it seemed ok to be honest with right down to my ugly faults and truths. (There was this one guy once :) so I married him.) In past months I've just had so much more clarity and grown to own truths I was never letting out.-- This isn't off topic I promise-- Becasue having people who aren't closet creationists or who don't hate gays or tell stories about their toddler's awesome convictions of faith in your life is really really nice. So- no it should never end a friendship to find that someone you really enjoy has different values but I think it's probably ok to be a little let down to discover you don't share as much common ground as you'd assumed. Because common ground- having found it here- it really rocks.)

[Kitchen Princess]

I moved down south not too long ago, and I've had a hard time making friends. I didn't fit in so well in the small town where I landed (although I've recently moved to a college town, and that is a bit better). I finally made a friend down here, and although she is a fiscal and social conservative, and I am a fierce liberal, we have been able to make it work just fine by avoiding topics that are too political.

We were walking a few days ago, and I was talking about how my husband likes to argue with creationists online. He is a scientist, and has infinitely more patience than I do. I was telling my friend that I think it's pointless, because creationists are too dogmatic and delusional to accept arguments based on observable facts.

Well, guess who's a creationist...

I've always thought of myself as very tolerant, and I'm dismayed by how much I'm struggling with this. My friend is educated, and I believe that it's only through a sheer act of will that an educated person can ignore the fact of evolution. I think what I've discovered here is that she is fundy-lite. I know her parents are bat-poop crazy (e.g. Obama is going to steal our bank accounts and become ultimate overlord); I guess it only makes sense.

My question is this: would it bother you to find out your friend is a creationist, and would you be a big enough a-hole to hold that against her in practice?

Your best bet is to assume everyone you meet in the South is a creationist, and go from there.

eta: I have a very dear friend who is convinced we are in a spiritual battle against the devil and that there are dark forces all around us, controlling what we do and we have to fight against them with our very soul. I love her anyway. We just don't talk about the cra-cra.

[Lainey]

I have a few friend who are creationists. It drives me crazy because I am SO anti-creationism (and I'm a wimp, so they don't know that), but I can't see ending a friendship over it. I'd much rather gently try to bring them over to the dark side...where the cookies are... :twisted:

[fakepigtails73]

I don't think I even have any friends with whom I agree on everything. Actual friendship is all about accepting each other's differences.

Which differences are so big as to sever friendships? Fewer than you might think.

IMO severing friendship over this one issue is just a flip side to how some extreme fundies shun over some difference in nuance of religious belief.

Yup...It'd be boring to agree on everything 100% of the time.

If you get along with her, why sever the friendship over that issue? Who knows, maybe one day she'll see the truth re: evolution... If you get along with her and you don't spend all your moments together arguing, why break the friendship? Sp. if you don't know many people where you live.

[AudreyE]

Thanks everyone for commenting, and welcome, Zipper.

I think, perhaps, I have some emotional trash left over from a decade ago, when two Christian friends dumped me out of the blue, because they felt moved by the "don't yoke yourself with unbelievers" scripture. These were liberals and Methodists, and I never displayed an anti-Christian attitude around them (since I'm not anti-Christian until a Christian starts trying to legislate *my* faith). I guess I'm worried that my new friend obviously falls somewhere on the spectrum of thinking that the Bible is inerrant, and it's easy for me to imagine her rejecting me when she realizes just how incredibly not Christian I am.

When I think of it, she and I don't have much in common at all except for our ages, the fact that we grew up in the same state up north, and the fact that we're both tragically lonely down here. Of course, the first town I moved to here was so rural, and the number of educated 20- and 30-somethings in the area was so low, that I had some friends with whom I not only had nothing in common, but also with whom I had to be careful not to use big words or to discuss concepts that one would probably only encounter in college.

I will definitely continue to spend time with her, but it is very hard to hide so much of who I am, and I'm sure she feels the same. Also, I'm afraid there might be something uglier there if I scratch the surface, like homophobia (a real deal breaker). I dunno. Maybe she'll save me from execution in 20 years when the American Taliban rounds up all the liberals who posted on Free Jinger.

I just don't understand how she can be a nurse and not believe in the one idea that underlies all modern biology...

[DarkAnts]

I worked with someone who was a creationist. I have a lot of respect for him. He was a great lead who was always considerate of others. He never told me that he was, I heard about it from one of the other leads. He is a chemist so it surprised some people. It sounded like he was put on the spot about weather or not he believed in evolution. He said that he was a creationist and did not go into details about how it applied to his life. He never talked about that sort of thing at work. He never forced his belief system down anyone. The lead who told me about his beliefs tried to pass him off as not being as intelligent as her.

I dont have a problem with creationist as long as they keep their belief to themselves. I respectfully do the same.

[browngrl]

My answer to whether or not I could stay friends with a creationist is: it depends.

Only a few people make it into my inner most circle of friends - these are generally people I have known and loved for years and we do share similar views on politics and philosophy.

Many more of my friends are friends for a certain activity/discussion etc. For example I volunteer looking after kittens and one of my co volunteers is a very conservative devout Christian ( I have gathered this information based on her words/actions). We can be friends in the context of volunteering because we both just talk about pets and kittens. She does not try and sell me on her philosophy and I do not try and sell mine. So, for a friendship with someone who believes in the opposite of me can work but it will probably never be a very close friendship and it can only work if both of us keep our philosophies to ourselves.

To be honest, most of the fundamental types I have known have dropped me as a friend before I dropped them. On the occasions that I have found out why I was defriended it always comes back to the fact that they felt my atheism and feminism was a bad influence even when I said nothing.

[AudreyE]

To be honest, most of the fundamental types I have known have dropped me as a friend before I dropped them. On the occasions that I have found out why I was defriended it always comes back to the fact that they felt my atheism and feminism was a bad influence even when I said nothing.

That's probably where my nerves are coming from. I'm not sure she realizes I don't practice the faith. I may have even talked about "church" around her, which is something I do with amusement down here, because there's so much blatant social incentive to be Christian in the south, but I secretly know that my church is the ebil Unitarian Church, and my Buddhist minister probably preached this week about the legacy of our lesbian ministers

Edited to say: social incentive = shameless peer pressure

[Austin]

While I certainly don't run people through a checklist, finding out a person is a YEC does lower my respect for them a notch. I am generally not super-duper close with people for whom I do not have utmost respect. This is not to say we can't disagree at all (hardly - my husband, who I respect enormously, disagrees with me on a number of issues), but there are some issues that just make me wonder more about the core of a person than other issues.

Also, friendships are dynamic things. . . they don't always stay the same, and may wax and wane for any number of reasons.

[Austin]

To be honest, most of the fundamental types I have known have dropped me as a friend before I dropped them. On the occasions that I have found out why I was defriended it always comes back to the fact that they felt my atheism and feminism was a bad influence even when I said nothing.

This has been my experience, as well. Fundamental types are usually all-too-happy to jettison a liberal feminist from their lives, or at least from their inner circles.

[MarsGirl]

That's probably where my nerves are coming from. I'm not sure she realizes I don't practice the faith. I may have even talked about "church" around her, which is something I do with amusement down here, because there's so much blatant social incentive to be Christian in the south, but I secretly know that my church is the ebil Unitarian Church, and my Buddhist minister probably preached this week about the legacy of our lesbian ministers

Edited to say: social incentive = shameless peer pressure

*Unitarian high five* I got to a UU church... And while I enjoy fitting into society better by saying that I attend a church, yes, I too get the ebil eye when people find out which church I go to. It's not a *real* church, now, is it?

Funny story... the ex-bf thought we were waging a battle of good and evil. And he thought that if he entertained ideas about evolution or I talked about the Gnostic Bible (or the Apocrypha) and he started to entertain thoughts of it being right, it was the Devil working through him to turn him from God. That's when I realized you cant argue with that mindset because they legitimately believe that listening to logic about evolution and such is really some guy with horns and a pitchfork trying to sway them from God!!

I cant imagine living in a world where I thought there were really demons running around trying to cause me harm... I get scared enough at night about things that go thump...

[pomology]

I will definitely continue to spend time with her, but it is very hard to hide so much of who I am, and I'm sure she feels the same. Also, I'm afraid there might be something uglier there if I scratch the surface, like homophobia (a real deal breaker). I dunno. Maybe she'll save me from execution in 20 years when the American Taliban rounds up all the liberals who posted on Free Jinger.

I just don't understand how she can be a nurse and not believe in the one idea that underlies all modern biology...

This summer I had an internship in a not-so-big city in the midwest. I was really lonely and miserable (and in more culture shock than I have experienced in any foreign country) and lived for the few weekends I was able to make it out to Chicago to see family and friends.

The only two friends I had were conservative Christians. The one I was far closer to was Catholic. We talked about religion a lot, but it mostly under the guise of comparing them and educating each other about our respective faiths (as I am Jewish). One day we were discussing how Illinois had passed a law allowing civil unions which made their relationship with Catholic charities placing children in homes a lot more complicated (as obviously Catholic charities wasn't going to place a child with a gay couple.) Over the course of the conversation it became clear that she thought that not having both a mother and a father was incredibly detrimental to children. It really hurt me that she would think that some of the people dearest to me would never be good parents because they are gay. I tried to express my feelings but I don't think I did it very well and I just ended up feeling uncomfortable. But she was really the only companionship I had and we had a lot of other things in common and I enjoyed spending time with her. I'm also certain that she was pro-life as she had a shirt from some dance or something that her Catholic college had held to support pro-life organizations. I never brought that up, because I knew I wasn't going to be able to express my beliefs well to somebody who though abortion was murder. But it also did make me uncomfortable. To be trite, beggars can't be choosers. I didn't have a lot of options to counter my mind-numbing loneliness and I wasn't going to dump the only friends I had because of disagreements that did not actually affect our relationship. I still like her and try to keep in touch. I still don't like homophobia. I didn't try to avoid offending her delicate sensibilities on the subject. For example, I told her about how I went to Pride in Chicago. But she is not a person who is mean-spirited. She is a person who has been educated into a mindset that I vehemently disagree with. Her entire life revolves around the Catholic church. She's probably never really known an non-closeted gay person. I'm sure she's never seen loving gay parents or the well-adjusted children they raise. Hopefully, someday she will change her mind regarding gay parents. But losing her friendship over that issue would have been cutting off my nose to spite my face.

On the other hand I agree that I do not understand how somebody in the medical profession could deny the theory that drives almost everything we know about modern medicine. I find creationism absolutely mind-boggling. But if she is just ignorant and miseducated, as supposed to being a viciously narrow-minded person, I wouldn't fault her for it if I were you.