NON-fundy parents how would you handle this

[keeperrox]

I appreciate your flagrant use of caps lock and bold but they really don't make you more correct just more obnoxious. It really does matter that most of the time he is taken to the car and put into a soothing environment. Repeating the same mantra over and over doesn't prove anything other than your argument had no real substance in the first place. I would think eventually you would realize that just because an opinion differed from yours that it was not wrong.

I'll claim obnoxious, but I DON'T HIT TODDLERS. I win.

And really? Hitting children is not just a different opinion. It's abuse and it's wrong. You claim that my argument of "hitting toddlers is wrong" has no substance, then I'd like to read the substance behind your argument that "hitting toddlers is perfectly fine", because you certainly haven't proven it yet. If you'd like to get pats on the back for only occasionally hitting your toddler, instead of resorting to abuse all the time like your own parents, then you're on the wrong forum.

[Witsec7]

Perspective is everything and if you think a light swat on the thigh on very rare occasions even begins to compare to this I invite you to PM me and we can further discuss this.

Deja vu all over again. Another that want to take it to pms. after they opened the topic on an open forum.

[Koala]

Deja vu all over again. Another that want to take it to pms. after they opened the topic on an open forum.

Heh...at least this one doesn't want us to call him on the phone :lol:

[Witsec7]

Heh...at least this one doesn't want us to call him on the phone :lol:

Give him time :lol:

[Pad Lock]

No strawman at all Patrick. You can rationalize hitting but I'm suggesting you need to learn how to creatively parent without hitting. You will rationalize as others have attempted but its pure crap. Get out of your fucking box and be an adult, not a big person who hits someone. You are the weakest type of man, one who will always find an excuse to raise a hand.

I am a well educated and intelligent individual. If you have facts to present which prove me wrong please present them. Unbiased peer reviewed studies are a good example of fact but please do not assert your opinion as fact. If you can show me where rare light swats are detrimental to my child then I will happily stop doing it. Attacking my manhood just goes to show how desperate you are to assert your opinion over mine rather than present an actual argument.

If you think selling us on the idea that you are just hitting him to embarrass him, you are not helping yourself.

If you'll kindly look at my quote you'll see I said "fundies and other nuts". You fall into the "other nuts" category.

Stop hitting your baby. It's sad enough that he's lost his dad. He doesn't need you hitting him, and then crying all over yourself telling him what he did to make you hit him..

I am not trying to "help" myself. I don't really have a dependency complex that requires my opinions and actions to be validated by others. That being said please refer to the above where I asked for unbiased peer reviewed studies that prove that swatting is detrimental to my child and I will gladly stop.

Attacking my sanity is going to garner you about as much thought and consideration as attacking my manhood. Unless you are a shrink of some sort then please keep your diagnosis to yourself. I will however entertain your argument and ask my shrink at my next appointment how he feels about this.

I am not insane nor am I a weak man. I am raising a weak man's son for him because he couldn't handle his own responsibilities to his son. I live everyday with the decisions of a weak man and spend most of my time after a weak man ignores his child for an entire weekend so he can go on excursions with his girlfriend doing damage control for a little person that doesn't understand why Daddy won't just come home from Lita's house. If that is insane or weak then we have different definitions of both words.

I'll claim obnoxious, but I DON'T HIT TODDLERS. I win.

And really? Hitting children is not just a different opinion. It's abuse and it's wrong. You claim that my argument of "hitting toddlers is wrong" has no substance, then I'd like to read the substance behind your argument that "hitting toddlers is perfectly fine", because you certainly haven't proven it yet. If you'd like to get pats on the back for only occasionally hitting your toddler, instead of resorting to abuse all the time like your own parents, then you're on the wrong forum.

Are you familiar with the term circular argument? I suggest that you get familiar with it because that is what you have presented. You are asserting that you are right because you said so. That would be like me asserting that Harry Potter is real and I can do magic because JK Rowling said he was not because I have any proof.

For the third time; unbiased peer reviewed studies that show where rare light swats on the thigh are detrimental to a child.

I don't want a pat on the back. As I have stated I do not have a dependency complex. I'm only on this forum because I have a real and seething hatred for fundies. I never expected to be put on the same level as them because I dared to share something. Being militant really doesn't prove that you are right it just proves that you will stop at nothing to be right.

Deja vu all over again. Another that want to take it to pms. after they opened the topic on an open forum.

Oh look. People wanted to continue publicly and here I am continuing publicly. I didn't want to further hijack the thread but I can see that is of little concern to anyone so I will continue publicly. It's cute how some people think insults and personal attacks are intelligent forms of debate.

EDIT: I don't want you to call me on the phone. I don't want you to email me or contact me anywhere off this forum. I get enough phone calls without half the intarwebs feeling the need to add to that. I actually rather hate talking on the phone but if you really feel the strong need to see me ask for private contact refer to me suggesting that this conversation be continued in PM. You attack me for public speaking and attack me for suggestion private discourse. Catch 22 much?

[Witsec7]

am not trying to "help" myself. I don't really have a dependency complex that requires my opinions and actions to be validated by others. That being said please refer to the above where I asked for unbiased peer reviewed studies that prove that swatting is detrimental to my child and I will gladly stop.

Like I said you are a lazy parent Patrick. If you want peer reviewed studies there is a link on the non spanking thread.

Time for you to devote some time to your silent pm army :lol:

[Pad Lock]

Like I said you are a lazy parent Patrick. If you want peer reviewed studies there is a link on the non spanking thread.

Time for you to devote some time to your silent pm army :lol:

Do you have children? I think it's a fair question given the context of the conversation.

I'm not sure what you mean by silent PM army? Could you expound?

Sorry for the delay in answering. I was browsing the non spank thread as requested.

[Witsec7]

Do you have children? I think it's a fair question given the context of the conversation.

I'm not sure what you mean by silent PM army? Could you expound?

Sorry for the delay in answering. I was browsing the non spank thread as requested.

I've raised five, and a few that courts gave me via guardianship proceedings. I didn't need to raise any kids to know that hitting is wrong though.

[Pad Lock]

And the silent PM army bit? Explain?

[Witsec7]

And the silent PM army bit? Explain?

You patrick are a boring troll and a lazy lazy man who won't even do a search.

[keeperrox]

For the third time; unbiased peer reviewed studies that show where rare light swats on the thigh are detrimental to a child.

Okay, let's see.

From Dr. Sears:

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/discip ... your-child

1. HITTING MODELS HITTING

2. HITTING DEVALUES THE CHILD

3. HITTING DEVALUES THE PARENT

4. HITTING MAY LEAD TO ABUSE

5. HITTING DOES NOT IMPROVE BEHAVIOR

6. HITTING IS ACTUALLY NOT BIBLICAL (no, this does not matter to most, but it's in the article and it doesn't devalue the other 9 points)

7. HITTING PROMOTES ANGER - IN CHILDREN AND IN PARENTS

8. HITTING BRINGS BACK BAD MEMORIES

9. ABUSIVE HITTING DOESN'T WORK

10. SPANKING DOESN'T WORK

Read points 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 10 to understand why your "light swatting" is detrimental.

______________________________________

From Jan Hunt, M.Sc., director of The Natural Child Project

http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/tenreasons.html

I particularly like points 2, 3, 6, and 7. Please read them, and then come back and explain exactly what you think your "light swatting" is teaching your toddler.

______________________________________

"Teach Gentleness by Being Gentle"

http://www.neverhitachild.org/gentle.html

You hit your son because he hits you. Do you see the irony here?

______________________________________

"When Children Hit Their Parents"

http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_g ... rents.html

You are modeling that hitting in frustration or anger is an acceptable response. When your toddler hits you, maybe you should try to figure out why he's hitting, instead of just hitting him back.

______________________________________

"Twenty Alternatives to Punishment"

Once you realize that there is no good reason to hit your toddler (is that better?), maybe you'll find this helpful:

http://www.awareparenting.com/twenty.htm

______________________________________

Would you like me to continue?

[Pad Lock]

You patrick are a boring troll and a lazy lazy man who won't even do a search.

I see. So my asking you for facts and explanations of terms that I didn't understand in your posts makes me a troll and lazy. I could counter that you are lazy because you can't bother to type out a simple explanation to your own phrase. I could also counter that you are lazy because rather than offer me the studies I asked for with simple copy paste links you chose to refer me to another thread. I could also assert that you are lazy because your argument has been reduced to personal attack rather than intelligent debate.

I'm a troll because I posted an answer to a question? Are you sure you know what a troll is or are you just putting forth a buzzword to continue your personal attacks rather than have to offer something of substance? That's a lot of questions I know and I don't expect you to answer them since it is late and you would have to post more than a sentence to do it.

@keeperrox

Thank you. I have a lot of reading and research to do now but I do appreciate you actually taking the time to provide me with what I asked for. You can continue if you like but I am sure it will take me some time to read what you have already posted here but the effort is not unappreciated.

[Mama Mia]

Back to the original question:

One of my kids was severely hyperactive. At 4 years old, in that situation he would have been a complete basket case. With him I would have had him run around for a looooooonnnngggg time before the party even started, and would have made sure to have scoped out places to take him outside to run around some more if needed during the party. I also would of made sure to have some easy protein snacks as that helped settle him down. I would of brought along a coloring book or some other quiet thing in case we needed to go outside to take some breaks. I would talk to him beforehand about maybe needing to take breaks so he wouldn't melt-down if we needed to do that a few times.

With my non-adhd children I would have explained the expectations beforehand, stayed close by if they seemed to be getting too overstimulated and spinning out of control, had them sit by me for a minute or two if they got way out of hand. 4 is pretty young, so I would probably just do short sit downs and not have left the party unless they just stayed completely out of control. I would also have tried to guide them to other activities if they were getting too wild during a particular activity. I probably would have had protein snacks and alternate quiet toys with me to use 'just in case'.

With toddlers or older children I would have been more likely to leave the party eventually if they were being completely wild and not responding. Toddlers won't care after a few minutes anyway. A child over 6 would be unlikely to behave that badly after warnings, and would be more likely to understand the need to behave or leave.

A pre-school age child is harder in a party environment I think, because they aren't really old enough to be used to group expectations and are still very easily over-stimulated, but are old enough to really want to be with their friends and be part of their fun.

[Sola]

I would have taken the child to their mother and said that one more instance of the bad behaviour and mum would have to take the child and leave. Then explained that it was for the safety of the children and that the mum was responsible for her child in the party.

I've seen it from both sides; I've been the mum of THAT child (my son has AS and ADHD) and I've had parties for my son where other kids were out of control. When my son has gone to parties and become over stimulated, I;ve taken him aside, given him chance to calm down, given him a warning and if he carried on, we left - yes he was in tears when he was little but better than than him hurting himself or others. In parties I've had for my son, many of the kids attending also had AS and ADHD as they were school friends and my son has always been in a special school. I insisted that parents attend and not just drop their kids off (you'd be surprised how many parents wanted to do that) because I have two kids with special needs who require my full attention and I can't watch my kids and theirs too. A couple of times I've had to have words with parents over their kids, and once had to ask a parent to remove their child - that went down well... But considering he was throwing my then three year old daughter around and terrifying her I think I was justified.

[valsa]

I am raising a weak man's son for him because he couldn't handle his own responsibilities to his son.

If you can't handle the responsibility without resorting to occasionally hitting the child, you're a weak man too.

Also, that adjective excuse is the stupidest shit I've ever heard. Let's try an exercise:

I set a small fire in the house. Have I committed arson?

I committed justifiable homicide. Have I killed someone?

I gave my child a light swat on the thigh. Have I hit him?

The answer to all of these is "yes".

[formergothardite]

How exactly can you swat without hitting?

ETA: If I swat at a fly, I am hitting at it. Maybe not as hard as if I was hitting a bee with a book, but it is still hitting.

[formergothardite]

Also, Pad, you said that you swatted your toddler. I view toddlers as usually under the age of two, the age when they are still toddling around. At what age do you start swatting?

And really, your child kicks you, so you hit him on the leg? And your child hits you in the face with a toy, so you hit him on the leg? Wouldn't it be more logical, to remove your child away from you when kicked and say "I"m sorry I don't like being kicked, so you have to go sit by yourself for (fill in the blank how long of a time)" or if they are hitting with a toy, and say "I'm sorry hitting people with toys is not appropriate, this toy will be put up for now." And if he hits with another toy, take that. Or go stick them in a spot with no toys for a little bit. Sure these things take more effort than a swat on the leg, but it is the logical consequence of the actions, where a swat is not.

[Katiebug]

Pad Lock, the American Academy of Pediatrics is against corporal punishment of children - and yes, that includes "occasional light swats". It's not just crunchy hippie attachment parenting types who don't spank. Most studies have demonstrated no positive benefit to corporal punishment and there are potentially negative outcomes to spanking as well. Spanking can lead to more physically-harmful and abusive behaviors by parents. It is known that the more children are spanked, the more likely they are to spank their own children and to approve of hitting their spouse or romantic partner. Spanking also leads to higher rates of physical aggression in older children and teenagers. And when compared to other types of punishment it's not even all that effective, so why do it?

I'd suggest that in addition to the "plethora" of pills that you take, you might wish to seek out talk therapy to come to terms with your abusive upbringing and find ways to effectively parent that don't involve violence. Barring that, there are numerous books on the subject of discipline. You're rationalizing being violent against a helpless child by saying that it's occasional, that it's a light swat instead of a wooden paddle or metal spatula, that you only spank when there's a "reason", etc. When you have to rationalize a behavior like that, it says to me that somehow you know it's not the best way to react. It's not your fault - you're just continuing a sad cycle of violence that was started with your parents' abuse.

God, I have a toddler and the thought of hitting her makes me sick. Discipline is not just about punishment. Punishment is a component of any parental discipline strategy, and ours are limited to time outs and natural consequences (when it is a safe situation to allow), but much more of "discipline" revolves around parent-child interaction and reinforcing positive behaviors. Sometimes it means that I have to take a crying toddler out of a store, abandoning a full shopping cart just short of the checkout. Sometimes it means my husband or I sits in the car with her while the other pays a restaurant bill and gets our meal packed up to go. And I'm sure that sometime we will be in a situation where we have to leave a cousin's or friend's party early because of repeated misbehavior. That's part of life with kids.

[Rosa]

I'm not saying that you are lying, but I am floored that you don't have horrible memories of an adult hitting you with a wooden board. Perhaps it's because I was so traumatized by events in my childhood. I was not what most people would have called abused, but I am in my 30's and my childhood memories have never left me.

My mom kept a wooden spoon in her purse, and spanked us with it. She says she chased me around the house hitting me with it til it broke, several times. I've heard similar stories from enough women her age (I was born in the mid-70s) that I don't think it was at all uncommon then, at least in the Midwest.

The thing is, my dad was SO FUCKING SCARY with his unpredictable outbursts of rage, I didn't remember my mom ever hitting us at ALL until she told me about it. Because I never thought she'd *really* hurt me, and I always feared he would.

So anyway. We forget a lot of our childhoods, for various reasons.

[valsa]

It's not your fault - you're just continuing a sad cycle of violence that was started with your parents' abuse.

While I get what you're saying about the cycle of abuse, I disagree that it's not his fault. He's an adult. However violent his upbringing was, he has an obligation not to abuse his own child in turn. If he doesn't fulfill that obligation, that is his fault. There are also many, many resources available for him to learn a better way to parent. If he doesn't pursue those resources, that's his fault as well.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I would keep an eye on my kids if I thought that they could get rough or hyper.

At the first sign of a child of mine getting physical or unsafe, I would be right there, at their level, making it VERY clear what the problem was, and removing them. The first time, I would remove them just long enough to get them calmed down. The second time, I'd say, "We're leaving, now" and go. Period. The child would be put to bed and we would make sure that there was no more sugar that day. I don't think it's mean to the child - if they have gotten to the point where they are like that, they have clearly lost control of themselves and NEED to leave the party.

No negotiations, no drama. Just the consistency of knowing that mom is watching, mom will intervene, and mom will not hesitate to end things once behavior gets out of hand.

[MonkeyMomma]

I would give a warning, followed by a time-out and a warning, and then we'd leave. Three strikes, you're out.

Edited to add that leaving is a natural consequence of being unable to behave at a party. I think natural consequences are respectful, because they make sense and emphasize reality.

Exactly. For myself and other non-spankers I know, which is most of my "mommy friends," there would usually be a request to apologize to the injured child (if there was pushing hitting involved) and an opportunity for reconciliation.

[Conuly]

*thinks a minute*

Off the, um, new topic, but isn't leaving a LOGICAL consequence instead of a NATURAL one?

The natural consequence to touching a hot stove is that your hand gets burned. The logical one is that your Daddy takes you away from the stove and blocks it off so you can't touch it again.

The natural consequence to not doing your homework is that you fail your class. The logical one is that your parents make you sit down every day and watch you until your homework is done, no longer allowing you the autonomy to finish it yourself.

The natural consequence to attacking your little friends is that they hit you back. They're as young as you. The logical consequence is that your Mom takes you home.

[MonkeyMomma]

I'll claim obnoxious, but I DON'T HIT TODDLERS. I win.

:clap:

I was going to do a more elaborate response, but this will do.

[MonkeyMomma]

*thinks a minute*

Off the, um, new topic, but isn't leaving a LOGICAL consequence instead of a NATURAL one?

The natural consequence to touching a hot stove is that your hand gets burned. The logical one is that your Daddy takes you away from the stove and blocks it off so you can't touch it again.

The natural consequence to not doing your homework is that you fail your class. The logical one is that your parents make you sit down every day and watch you until your homework is done, no longer allowing you the autonomy to finish it yourself.

The natural consequence to attacking your little friends is that they hit you back. They're as young as you. The logical consequence is that your Mom takes you home.

Well, I'm inclined to agree now that you have clarified this, but in the "real world," one could be asked to leave an establishment if their behavior is inappropriate. So, logical and potentially natural?