Canada's Assisted Reproduction law

[2xx1xy1JD]

As many of you know, I'm a proud Canadian...but I can't defend the mess that is our assisted reproduction law.

http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/news ... -nightmare

Get this:

Suppose a couple is gay, or the would-be mother has PCOS, or has had multiple miscarriages, or has a medical condition that makes pregnancy too dangerous. What should they do?

In the US, the answer is easy: use a gestational surrogate.

If you ask the Catholic church or the QF crowd, they'll tell you to pray harder and/or adopt.

So, what does Canada say? The same Canada that allows gay marriage? It says that if the would-be parents actually pay for donor gametes or pay the surrogate for anything other than reasonable medical expenses, they are criminals and can face up to 10 years in prison.

[fluttershies]

I don't know...it's illegal to pay people to be surrogates here in the UK too but surrogacies still happen legally. There are huge problems with the exchange of money for surrogacy, like women being potentially forced into being a surrogate. And there are ways of having children that are not biologically yours without surrogacy.

[reds]

I don't know...it's illegal to pay people to be surrogates here in the UK too but surrogacies still happen legally. There are huge problems with the exchange of money for surrogacy, like women being potentially forced into being a surrogate. And there are ways of having children that are not biologically yours without surrogacy.

That!\

With the amount of women being forced into things like the sex trade, it would be pretty easy for a guy to farm out his girl for profit without having to put her on a street corner.

[mschelseae]

I don't know...it's illegal to pay people to be surrogates here in the UK too but surrogacies still happen legally. There are huge problems with the exchange of money for surrogacy, like women being potentially forced into being a surrogate. And there are ways of having children that are not biologically yours without surrogacy.

was it here where someone posted the link about the lady who was tricked into being a surrogate for a couple (the man said he had divorced his wife, and got the girlfriend pregnant, when really him and his wife couldnt have children, so they came up with a plan to get him to impregnate and keep the other womans baby) and is now going thru a really nasty custody battle? i forget. woult this law protect things like that? assuming you know what article i'm talking about

[fluttershies]

was it here where someone posted the link about the lady who was tricked into being a surrogate for a couple (the man said he had divorced his wife, and got the girlfriend pregnant, when really him and his wife couldnt have children, so they came up with a plan to get him to impregnate and keep the other womans baby) and is now going thru a really nasty custody battle? i forget. woult this law protect things like that? assuming you know what article i'm talking about

Sorry, I'm pretty new and haven't heard about that. But there probably is some kind of legal protection in cases like that.

[Alana Rickman]

was it here where someone posted the link about the lady who was tricked into being a surrogate for a couple (the man said he had divorced his wife, and got the girlfriend pregnant, when really him and his wife couldnt have children, so they came up with a plan to get him to impregnate and keep the other womans baby) and is now going thru a really nasty custody battle? i forget. woult this law protect things like that? assuming you know what article i'm talking about

I'm familiar with that story. I don't know how uniform the surrogacy laws are throughout the country, but the law in my state specifically says that a woman who conceives through sexual intercourse cannot be a gestational surrogate, and there is no presumption that the "intended" mother (as opposed to the biological mother) is the legal parent of the child. (The chapter of the family code that this statute is in is called the Uniform Parentage Act, which indicates that it's a uniform code drawn up by national experts that states are free to enact, amend and then enact, or ignore as they see fit). I don't think there's any dispute that the child in that case was conceived the old-fashioned way, so if the Uniform Parentage Act has been enacted in their state, the husband and wife will likely lose if they try to raise a surrogacy argument.

[mschelseae]

I'm familiar with that story. I don't know how uniform the surrogacy laws are throughout the country, but the law in my state specifically says that a woman who conceives through sexual intercourse cannot be a gestational surrogate, and there is no presumption that the "intended" mother (as opposed to the biological mother) is the legal parent of the child. (The chapter of the family code that this statute is in is called the Uniform Parentage Act, which indicates that it's a uniform code drawn up by national experts that states are free to enact, amend and then enact, or ignore as they see fit). I don't think there's any dispute that the child in that case was conceived the old-fashioned way, so if the Uniform Parentage Act has been enacted in their state, the husband and wife will likely lose if they try to raise a surrogacy argument.

That is so interesting. I wonder what the law says in their state, because as far as I know there still in that huge battle. I personally think the woman who was tricked should get to keep the baby. I can't imagine the mental truama she's been through. Does anybody know the outcome of that case? Is it even finished yet?

That whole case just seems so bizarre, I remember when I first read it, I thought 'Well how could this even be an issue, they should let the woman who carried the child keep the child' but since its also the man's child too, he can just fight for plain ol' custody, it doesn't matter if he's married or not, or weather they wanted a surrogate. They tricked this poor poor woman into carrying his child, just so they could steal it from her. Deplorable.

[valsa]

Michigan has also criminalized paid surrogacy. I believe it has the harshest laws against it in the U.S.

[mschelseae]

http://humboldt.craigslist.org/etc/2829915644.html

is that an example of paid surrogacy, or is it like, I'll give you $100k to cary this bebe? So confusing.

[Witsec7]

I used to lurk on a surrogates board. I found it through a woman who was supposedly a surrogate on her third birth and had two children of her own. She needed serious help. There were other voices on the forum, but I'm in the gray zone on the issue and can't remember the legalities in CA (where she was a resident) or here in Boregonia.

riffle

[xDreamerx]

I'm not surprised the laws are the way they are. It seems like an area that would be full of these kinds of circumstances or scams. Having specific laws would obviously combat this, but I think it comes down to semantics and money. As it stands the law is federal, but if there were to change the law and not ban the practice then each province would have to have clearly set standards as to how it fits into their health care system. There would probably be a push to have at least some of the costs covered and I think that's what makes people hesitant. It would mean higher taxes for what a lot of people would consider an elective surgery.

[CanadianHippie]

You can cover medical costs associated with the surrogacy. You just can't buy or sell eggs, embryos, sperm, or babies in Canada the same way you can't buy or sell blood or organs for transplant. It's designed to keep surrogacy strictly voluntary for all parties, including the surrogate, not make surrogacy illegal. There are also laws requiring prospective surrogates to undergo a psychiatric assessment, physical, and meet certain criteria.

You wanna be pissed off about something, be pissed off that if a man has slept with another man after 1976 he's not allowed to donate sperm ever. Which pretty much eliminates the entire gay male population from having biological children if they don't find a way to circumvent the law.

[mschelseae]

You can cover medical costs associated with the surrogacy. You just can't buy or sell eggs, embryos, sperm, or babies in Canada the same way you can't buy or sell blood or organs for transplant. It's designed to keep surrogacy strictly voluntary for all parties, including the surrogate, not make surrogacy illegal. There are also laws requiring prospective surrogates to undergo a psychiatric assessment, physical, and meet certain criteria.

You wanna be pissed off about something, be pissed off that if a man has slept with another man after 1976 he's not allowed to donate sperm ever. Which pretty much eliminates the entire gay male population from having biological children if they don't find a way to circumvent the law.

Omg are you serious? Is this only in Canada where gay men can't donate?? WHAT is the reasoning behind it?

[xDreamerx]

You can cover medical costs associated with the surrogacy. You just can't buy or sell eggs, embryos, sperm, or babies in Canada the same way you can't buy or sell blood or organs for transplant. It's designed to keep surrogacy strictly voluntary for all parties, including the surrogate, not make surrogacy illegal. There are also laws requiring prospective surrogates to undergo a psychiatric assessment, physical, and meet certain criteria.

You wanna be pissed off about something, be pissed off that if a man has slept with another man after 1976 he's not allowed to donate sperm ever. Which pretty much eliminates the entire gay male population from having biological children if they don't find a way to circumvent the law.

I don't think it's fair but it's not exactly surprising since they don't allow men that have slept with other men to donate blood either. There's been calls for it to be reconsidered in recent years but no change has been made.

[Feberin]

Paid surrogacy just seems like a bad idea to me since you could have poor women who are somewhat forced into it. Its pretty much selling babies. I saw a special on TLC about a woman who carried I think quadruplets as a surrogate. I could not imagine going through that sort of a high risk pregnancy and not keeping the baby.

[valsa]

I don't buy the "poor people will be forced into it" thing. I'm poor and have a job, so it could be said I'm being forced into working. I think if someone wants to provide surrogacy as a service, which is not selling babies, they should be able to. They should also be protected by the law (as should the parents)

[fluttershies]

I don't buy the "poor people will be forced into it" thing. I'm poor and have a job, so it could be said I'm being forced into working. I think if someone wants to provide surrogacy as a service, which is not selling babies, they should be able to. They should also be protected by the law (as should the parents)

But you're not vulnerable to coercion like say, a trafficked 14yo is.

http://www.lauraagustin.com/surrogate-m ... rafficking

[valsa]

But you're not vulnerable to coercion like say, a trafficked 14yo is.

http://www.lauraagustin.com/surrogate-m ... rafficking

And if legal protection was put into place for surrogates a 14 year old would be eligible to sign a legal binding surrogacy contract and consent to insemination... how?

Don't be stupid. I'm all for legalizing prostitution too, but obviously not for 14 year olds.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Part of the problem is that there's no much of a supply of donor gametes or sperm if nobody is paid. Sure, a lesbian couple can approach a male friend for a donation, but then he could legally be considered to be the father, be on the hook for child support, etc.

Why shouldn't a surrogate be paid? She's providing a valuable service, and it's a service that requires a lot from her.

Not surprisingly, there are a limited number of Canadian women who are really willing to be a surrogate, go through some intensive and invasive medical procedures, 9 months of pregnancy and delivery, without receiving anything in return other than reasonable medical expenses. While it's illegal to pay someone in Canada, it's NOT illegal to hire a surrogate outside of Canada. So, that's one of the major unintended effects of the law: Canadians go elsewhere to hire surrogates. I fail to see how this serves any purpose.

Instead, we get nightmare scenarios like this:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/985 ... -come-home

If anything, the Canadian law would actually INCREASE the risk of exploitation by forcing Canadians to turn to less regulated jurisdictions. You could easily have a law here that permits payment, but also requires surrogates to be at least 21, to receive counselling and medical clearance, and for clinics to ensure that valid surrogacy agreements are in place.

[fluttershies]

And if legal protection was put into place for surrogates a 14 year old would be eligible to sign a legal binding surrogacy contract and consent to insemination... how?

Don't be stupid. I'm all for legalizing prostitution too, but obviously not for 14 year olds.

That still doesn't make trafficking surrogate mothers for money not a problem, even if the women are of legal age. If you are vulnerable (it's not about poor people being forced into it because of lack of money but vulnerable women who can easily be exploited) to trafficking then you are definitely vulnerable to signing legally binding contracts under coercion.

[valsa]

That still doesn't make trafficking surrogate mothers for money not a problem, even if the women are of legal age. If you are vulnerable (it's not about poor people being forced into it because of lack of money but vulnerable women who can easily be exploited) to trafficking then you are definitely vulnerable to signing legally binding contracts under coercion.

Then the problem isn't the surrogacy, it's the trafficking. Fight it like you would trafficking for sex or cheap labor or any other reason.

[fluttershies]

Part of the problem is that there's no much of a supply of donor gametes or sperm if nobody is paid. Sure, a lesbian couple can approach a male friend for a donation, but then he could legally be considered to be the father, be on the hook for child support, etc.

Why shouldn't a surrogate be paid? She's providing a valuable service, and it's a service that requires a lot from her.

Not surprisingly, there are a limited number of Canadian women who are really willing to be a surrogate, go through some intensive and invasive medical procedures, 9 months of pregnancy and delivery, without receiving anything in return other than reasonable medical expenses. While it's illegal to pay someone in Canada, it's NOT illegal to hire a surrogate outside of Canada. So, that's one of the major unintended effects of the law: Canadians go elsewhere to hire surrogates. I fail to see how this serves any purpose.

Instead, we get nightmare scenarios like this:

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/985 ... -come-home

If anything, the Canadian law would actually INCREASE the risk of exploitation by forcing Canadians to turn to less regulated jurisdictions. You could easily have a law here that permits payment, but also requires surrogates to be at least 21, to receive counselling and medical clearance, and for clinics to ensure that valid surrogacy agreements are in place.

It's illegal to pay women for donating eggs in the UK, but women still do it. No one would suggest paying people to donate organs (while living) so why are eggs/sperm or whole bodies in the case of surrogates any different? It should be something done freely with no financial incentive. In any case, surely fewer surrogates and more adoptions would be a better scenario and one that Canada and other countries could aim for?

[bananacat]

Oh wow, poor women absolutely are at risk. I watch Logo sometimes, and there are late-night commercials for gay male couples advertising cheap surrogacy in India. Maybe that one particular agency isn't doing anything illegal or even shady, but there are plenty of other agencies that do exploit women in other countries.

In general, I am against paying for a surrogacy just as I am against paying for blood donations (which I did just today). Nobody has a right to a newborn baby, and the risk of coercion to actual women trumps the desire for others to be parents. Voluntary surrogacy is fine though.

[fluttershies]

Then the problem isn't the surrogacy, it's the trafficking. Fight it like you would trafficking for sex or cheap labor or any other reason.

And stopping paid surrogacy, cheap labour etc helps too. Paid surrogacy is just too open to exploitation.

[fluttershies]

Nobody has a right to a newborn baby, and the risk of coercion to actual women trumps the desire for others to be parents. Voluntary surrogacy is fine though.

QFT