Your Christian country might not be YOUR Christian country

[AudreyE]

So here's one of the many things on my mind after listening to butt-lube's chatter this month:

My Christian friends are hell-bent (heh) on telling me that the US was founded a Christian country. They point out that the original amendment (ignoring 200 years of interpretation) was only intended to stop the feds from establishing a state religion. I always want to fight this assertion, but, you know, maybe they're right. I still don't give a shit, but maybe the dudes 200 years ago did think of this as Christian nation.

Still - the separation of church and state. Why? Because there was so much infighting among denominations that all feared one would triumph over another.

Now, fast-forward to Frothy. In 2008, he said protestants are not Christians. Last week he made the comment about wanting to puke when JFK promised not to impose Catholicism on Baptists.

Are Iranians and Iraqi's satisfied that they're in their Muslim countries? No. The Sunnis & Shiites fight endlessly. Do we really want to live in a country where Catholics. Baptists and Methodists fight for control while the millions of non-Christian people are left out of the political process? "Not I," said the agnostic fly.

[valsa]

There's a common comeback to this at FSTDT- "Treaty of Tripoli, bitch."

For those who don't know, part of the Treaty of Tripoly (ratified in 1797 by a Senate led by Thomas Jefferson and including several Founding Fathers) states "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". So while it's arguable that the country may have been founded to be Christian, the government sure as hell wasn't.

[debrand]

The surest way to ensure religious liberty is too make certain the government remains secular. What some people don't understand is that there are so many different versions of Christianity that they almost appear to be different religions connected only by their worship of Jesus. Even Christian denominations that are very similar can consider one another nonChrisitan because of those slight differences.

So, whose Christianity would the state promote?

[emmiedahl]

There's a common comeback to this at FSTDT- "Treaty of Tripoli, bitch."

For those who don't know, part of the Treaty of Tripoly (ratified in 1797 by a Senate led by Thomas Jefferson and including several Founding Fathers) states "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". So while it's arguable that the country may have been founded to be Christian, the government sure as hell wasn't.

I have never heard of this, but it is interesting because many of the founding fathers were probably involved.

Regardless of the FF's personal beliefs, they were more tolerant of other religions than, say, the Duggars.

I tend to think (and this is just my personal opinion, no basis to it) that personal religion is generally a good thing and organized religion is generally a bad thing (not that there are not exceptions). So the government should stay out of personal religious beliefs, but absolutely regulate organized religion to keep it honest and non-intrusive.

I know atheists are bristling at the sentence about personal religion. But consider: some people sincerely are only morally functional because of fear of a cosmic spanking from Sky Daddy. I am glad they have whatever controls they might have.

[valsa]

I know atheists are bristling at the sentence about personal religion. But consider: some people sincerely are only morally functional because of fear of a cosmic spanking from Sky Daddy.

I can't speak for all atheists but I'm not bristling. If religion never existed, those people would still follow the rules. The thing about religion is that, in most cases, people's beliefs come first, then they settle into a religion that aligns with those beliefs. Plus, people can justify pretty much anything to themselves. If the only thing holding those people back was religion, they'd just either find a religion that allowed what they'd want to do or justify to themselves why it was okay to do what they wanted within the framework of their religion. They only say religion is what holds them back because that's what they've been taught is true.

[emmiedahl]

That's true. And I think people paint God in their own image, so they see certain morals as coming from God when really it is internal. But some people really need an external authority, or the coping skills that some religions offer. For example, my mother has been calmer and happier since becoming a religious Buddhist. For some reason it really clicks with her, and it gives her a perspective that she did not have before. That's a good thing. But if Mahayana Buddhists were taking over schools and government, legislating their version of morality and picking on other religions, it would be a bad thing.

[valsa]

That's true. And I think people paint God in their own image, so they see certain morals as coming from God when really it is internal. But some people really need an external authority, or the coping skills that some religions offer. For example, my mother has been calmer and happier since becoming a religious Buddhist. For some reason it really clicks with her, and it gives her a perspective that she did not have before. That's a good thing. But if Mahayana Buddhists were taking over schools and government, legislating their version of morality and picking on other religions, it would be a bad thing.

I think there's actually been scientific research that shows people project their own beliefs onto God, so you're right that people make God in their own image. While some people do need an external control, that's not the same as needing religion. The law can act as a powerful external control for those who just can't not murder and pillage without it (though I think those individuals are very, very rare)

[good with snark]

and don't forget my beloved country of ireland the fighting between the catholics and non catholics

[Kitty]

The best argument against a Christian nation is always that, well, which Christians are running the nation? It wouldn't even be beneficial to Christians. Even if it was some non-denominational thing, some Christians would still be left out. If Baptists run the country, Methodists won't be happy. If Catholics run the country, no Protestant will be happy. I think if conservative Lutherans ran the country, more liberal Lutherans wouldn't be happy about it.

And then you have all the other religions here, like Muslims and Jews, who don't cause a lot of trouble but would not appreciate having to live in a Christian nation.

The reasoning behind the separation of church and state is to prevent fighting between religious groups. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand. Unless people want to see riots between different denominations, the government has to be very strictly neutral and secular. The people who run the government can be any religion they want, they just can't force it on everyone else.

[Three and Done]

The best argument against a Christian nation is always that, well, which Christians are running the nation? It wouldn't even be beneficial to Christians. Even if it was some non-denominational thing, some Christians would still be left out. If Baptists run the country, Methodists won't be happy. If Catholics run the country, no Protestant will be happy. I think if conservative Lutherans ran the country, more liberal Lutherans wouldn't be happy about it.

And then you have all the other religions here, like Muslims and Jews, who don't cause a lot of trouble but would not appreciate having to live in a Christian nation.

The reasoning behind the separation of church and state is to prevent fighting between religious groups. I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand. Unless people want to see riots between different denominations, the government has to be very strictly neutral and secular. The people who run the government can be any religion they want, they just can't force it on everyone else.

Exactly. I personally don't care if you're Mormon, Catholic, Christian, Jewish, or worship the Flying Purple Toaster, just DON'T shove it down my throat or force me to live by YOUR rules.

[Nothing2CHere]

If Catholics run the country, no Protestant will be happy. I think if conservative Lutherans ran the country, more liberal Lutherans wouldn't be happy about it.

Exactly - even members of the supposedly same faith would not be happy. Santorum & I both consider ourselves Catholics, however, I do NOT want to live in a country run by his kind of Catholicism. His kind of Catholicism is the kind I want to see changed.

[Swamptribe]

There's a common comeback to this at FSTDT- "Treaty of Tripoli, bitch."

For those who don't know, part of the Treaty of Tripoly (ratified in 1797 by a Senate led by Thomas Jefferson and including several Founding Fathers) states "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". So while it's arguable that the country may have been founded to be Christian, the government sure as hell wasn't.

I've actually had Christians respond with "Well, they didn't mean it, they just wanted to appease them Muslims'. I kid you not, they claim that they lied in the treaty of Tripoli. The self deception never ends.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Initially, I thought, "no, a presidential candidate couldn't have REALLY said that, could he?" But this is Frothy, after all, so I googled it and sure enough came up with this, complete with audio of the speech:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/1 ... 86471.html

Here's JFK's 1960 speech on separation of church and state (maybe FJ should make it a sticky post?):

http://www.beliefnet.com/News/Politics/ ... z1natm8oPg

Here is the video of Santorum saying, repeatedly, that it makes him throw up:

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-last-wor ... /#46550756

If I was the cynical sort, I'd think that some Democratic strategist had said, "the economy still sucks, the President's popularity ratings need help - we need to do something desperate to scare people away from the Republicans if we want to have any chance of winning in 2012. Let's secretly promote the stupidest, scariest candidate out there, so that we'll get all those independent and undecided voters back." David Frum's been warning the Republicans that they are self-sabotaging (http://www.politicalruminations.com/201 ... -frum.html), but is anyone listening?

[Arete]

What really blows my mind is that there is plenty of proof (From the Jefferson Bible to their personal correspondence) that a lot of the founding fathers were Deists. The did not believe in the divinity of Jesus and they also did not believe the Prime Mover was interested in the nitty gritty of people's daily lives. You can make a good case the Benjamin Franklin was an atheist. Where christian fundemenalists get from that to the founding fathers creating a "christian" nation has never been explained and they get a really weird green tinge to their skin when you bring it up.

[Anxious Girl]

Maybe Santorum can create his own country here: http://www.nationstates.net/ that way, he can leave the rest of us alone. If we're lucky, maybe all of the crazy fundies will move to his "country." :lol:

[Swamptribe]

http://www.vahistorical.org/sva2003/vsrf.htm

Interesting article on the Virginia Religious Freedom amendment. Which heavily influenced the First Amendment. Freedom from religion is freedom of religion.

[fluttershies]

I'm an Anglican, and here in England (and Wales and Northern Ireland but not Scotland which is Presbyterian) Anglicanism is the official state religion. I would welcome total separation of church and state though - religion can't interfere in lawmaking and the government can't interfere with anyone's religion. It's surely a much more Christian thing to aim for - Matthew 22:21 certainly shows that Jesus didn't want Christians to rise up against secular government and impose a theocracy.

[meow139]

so frothy wanted to use when JFK said this.. Jr? Cause he would have been under 10 at the time.

[mnb357]

Oh, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for this quote. Sky Daddy....you made me snort water out my nose. This perfectly describes some kids who have given my kids a particularly hard time about our liberal religious beliefs. I'm going to let my kids borrow this quote.