Santorum And The Body His Deceased Child

[theologygeek]

I do think bringing a miscarried or stillborn baby home to be passed around to very young children is macabre, but the full story of Gabriel is worth knowing because it displays yet more of Santorum's stunning hypocrisy.

I don't know why people are surprised to find hypocrisy in a politician. I'd be more surprised to find a moral politician, no matter what the party affiliation is.

[SimplyMe]

About 10 years ago, a friend of mine died in a freak accident at age 28. Several friends and I traveled to his parents home (in the northeast) to attend his services. We were warned in advance that his family had chosen to have his body at their home prior to his funeral so everyone could spend time with him. That was all my friends and I could think about on the flight there- how creeped out we were by that, how weird it was, and how nervous we were about seeing his body when we went to visit his family.

I have to say that our experience was really very different from what we expected- it was actually quite beautiful. He was in an open casket in their parlor. You could have avoided the room if you wanted, but could spend time with him if you chose- they had a chair next to his casket where you could sit with him. He looked quite dapper, just like he was sleeping and as I spent more time in the house and near his body, I (and my friends) was totally at ease with it. His mom said that these were the last days she'd get to spend looking at her child before he was to be buried, she wanted him and his family to be in the comfort of her home, not sitting in a cold, sterile funeral home. It also allowed everyone more time with him- it brought his mom a great deal of comfort and solace to have him there for those couple of days.

So, this may seem strange to some, but I have to say that I really found it to be quite beautiful. And this wasn't in a South American or African tribal community, but rather a middle- upper class Caucasian family in Vermont.

People grieve in their own ways, I don't find him bringing his baby home to be strange at all, not anymore.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

To me it's really creepy, but I realize others feel differently. Make's the Jubilee pictures by the Duggars seem like nothing

[Austin]

I do think bringing a miscarried or stillborn baby home to be passed around to very young children is macabre, but the full story of Gabriel is worth knowing because it displays yet more of Santorum's stunning hypocrisy.

Recently, Santorum said he opposes all prenatal screening. Well, apparently he only opposes it for other people, because as you can see in this very pro-Santorum article from a Catholic website, prenatal testing is how the Santorums learned that Gabriel had a bladder condition and that they could possibly save the baby with intrauterine surgery.

Speaking gently in down-to-earth terms, Adzick explained that, although the situation was very serious, there was some chance that that the child could be saved through a shunt procedure. The Santorums readily agreed, and on the way home from the hospital they chose a name — Gabriel Michael, after the two archangels. "So, my beautiful son, you now have a name," Karen wrote in a letter to Gabriel. Although the procedure was risky, Gabriel survived. For a while, it looked as if the Santorums had indeed managed to save the life of their son.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/ ... recnum=657

The surgery actually did work, but an infection spread to the amniotic sac, and Mrs. Santorum became very ill and had to deliver the 20 week fetus early to save her own life. (hmmmm. As the fetus was almost certainly not viable then, some might consider that a voluntary abortion)

Bottom line, prenatal testing was used by the Santorums and they possibly could have saved the fetus with the surgery if things hadn't turned badly. Moral of the story: Only the Santorums get to find out prior to delivery if their fetus has an abnormality, curable or otherwise. Screw everyone else.

This.

If this happened at 20 weeks, a 20 week fetus is not viable anywhere in the world. Bringing a miscarried fetus home to pass around to your children is just sick. I don't know how that makes them any better or more sympathetic than Emma and what she did to her children with her miscarried fetus.

To me, this is just more in the whole ball of wax that is the anti-choice agenda, based on on everything else Santorum has said. I bet his wife's former live-in lover of six years, a doctor who performed abortions, would not have thought bringing a dead 20-week fetus home to the kiddos would be just a-okay.

These people are huge hypocrites. The only reason they could have any anomoly in their fetus diagnosed was because of prenatal testing technology. Now no one else should have that. I can't even. . .

[TXDuck]

Something can be creepy and still be a valid way to grieve, right? They're sort of two different subject.

[tkr322]

I do think bringing a miscarried or stillborn baby home to be passed around to very young children is macabre, but the full story of Gabriel is worth knowing because it displays yet more of Santorum's stunning hypocrisy.

Recently, Santorum said he opposes all prenatal screening. Well, apparently he only opposes it for other people, because as you can see in this very pro-Santorum article from a Catholic website, prenatal testing is how the Santorums learned that Gabriel had a bladder condition and that they could possibly save the baby with intrauterine surgery.

Speaking gently in down-to-earth terms, Adzick explained that, although the situation was very serious, there was some chance that that the child could be saved through a shunt procedure. The Santorums readily agreed, and on the way home from the hospital they chose a name — Gabriel Michael, after the two archangels. "So, my beautiful son, you now have a name," Karen wrote in a letter to Gabriel. Although the procedure was risky, Gabriel survived. For a while, it looked as if the Santorums had indeed managed to save the life of their son.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/ ... recnum=657

The surgery actually did work, but an infection spread to the amniotic sac, and Mrs. Santorum became very ill and had to deliver the 20 week fetus early to save her own life. (hmmmm. As the fetus was almost certainly not viable then, some might consider that a voluntary abortion)

Bottom line, prenatal testing was used by the Santorums and they possibly could have saved the fetus with the surgery if things hadn't turned badly. Moral of the story: Only the Santorums get to find out prior to delivery if their fetus has an abnormality, curable or otherwise. Screw everyone else.

Fuck you, Frothy, and the lube you slid in on.

What a dick. I've always hated this guy and now I hate him even more. I'm sure he agrees with the Pope, too... that all infertility treatments are bad. The Catholic mindset on all of these procreation issues is astounding.

[0KidsAndHappy]

I think everyone has the right to grieve how they want. I also believe that if you don't want people to discuss your grieving process, you shouldn't make such a private moment so public.

I personally found that bringing it home for the children to cuddle was odd, but more so than that was that he and his wife kept the fetus in their bed and slept with it that night. That's them, though. They have every right to do it, but they also wrote a book about it, so I don't see a problem with people giving their opinion on it.

His wife had to go through a procedure to save her own life and it is a choice that he wants to deny every other woman. On top of that, in Santorum's world, the doctors who helped his wife through this procedure would be arrested for murder. I wish that was brought up more in this campaign. Well, I wish it was brought up at all. He wants to turn this into a campaign about social issues, let his own moral decisions come into play. I know how it would turn out if Obama brought this up himself, so I really wish people in the media would actually discuss it. Liberal media, eh? :roll:

[JenniferJuniper]

I wish that was brought up more in this campaign. Well, I wish it was brought up at all. He wants to turn this into a campaign about social issues, let his own moral decisions come into play. I know how it would turn out if Obama brought this up himself, so I really wish people in the media would actually discuss it. Liberal media, eh? :roll:

When he started up his shit saying prenatal testing should not be allowed, I kept waiting for at least one journalist to ask him, "Sir, how would you have known your precious Gabriel had the bladder defect without prenatal testing? Don't you think all women and their partners should have the same right you and your wife did to know in advance of any problems and perhaps even be able save the pregnancy in utero if possible?

Never happened, of course.

[Witsec7]

As a former thantos worker I'm aware and have seen a variety of grief processes that aid those who remain in coping with their loved ones death. These are all private and individual choices. As a RCC kid I was forced to kiss and touch first term miscarriages during long formal open casket ceremonies. I can say I was marked for a very long time because of this exposure.

We're learning more and more that caring for a lost child in death can promote healing for the parents. We don't yet know what kind of outcomes will be experienced by children who have had this same exposure. Grief is a private process, the Santorums like other fundies injected a public aspect when writing their book. They also chose to make this child death part of their own profit motives when they wrote the book and used their dead baby as a political tool. Sounds familiar huh?

I can respect anyone's private grief process, I cannot respect people like Frothy et al for denying other women the diagnostic tools to determine fetal health or birth outcomes. I cannot and will not respect the Santorums for refusing women the same choices Karen was given during her complicated pregnancy.

What hasn't come up during these conversations that for the longest time Santorum kept a dead fetus in a jar on his desk in DC. When he was pursued by news sources on how he acquired this fetus, it magically vanished from view. I recognize that many times folks with unsupportable positions will pander to the emotions of others through sensationalism and crass publicity seeking. I think that part of it is rather sick and perverted, and intellectually dishonest.

[sugaree]

I used to think it was creepy, but I don't anymore. No creepier than sitting beside a casket or a bedside holding the hand of your deceased spouse, child, or parent. How they handled it with their other kids is important: how it went down is all about whether they let the kids hold the body or forced the kids to hold the body. And since this was so many years ago and the kids are now old enough to decide for themselves how traumatized they were, let it up to them.

But I am not a fan of the whole "Fluffy went to live on a farm" school of death talks to children, and I do think kids need to learn about death. I think seeing the body and participating in a grief ritual is a much healthier way to do so than just coming home all like "No, the baby isn't in Mommy's tummy any more. No, the baby isn't coming home. Go and watch Veggietales while Mommy locks herself in the bathroom and cries."

[tropaka]

It is low to criticize how people grieve? what about the Duggar/Jubilee funeral fiasco? When personal tragedies are used for political reasons or for profit, I'm calling BS.

It is one thing to hold and spend time with a miscarried baby, by choice, or to attend an open casket funeral (not just a Catholic thing - very common here in Canada Catholic or not), by choice. Quite another to to show a dead body - foetus or otherwise - to a young child.

[ShellyWelly]

I don't agree with Rick Santorum on ANYTHING at all ... except this. I don't think it was creepy at all that they slept with the baby after he died, or that they took him home so their children could see him. After my daughter passed away as a baby, we bathed her, dressed her, and took pictures of her. Yes, I have some pictures of her living, but after she was removed from life support, we finally got to see her with the tape and tubes gone ... they are the only pictures we'll ever have of her, so to others it may be weird, but to us it was perfectly natural. And one of my biggest regrets after my daughter died is that I never got to lay down, cuddle with her, and sleep with her in my arms.

My oldest child got to meet her baby sister and saw her while she was alive. But if she hadn't had the chance, yes, we would've had her there at the hospital with us when our middle child died -- we would've let her see her sister, hold her, gotten pictures with her. And, honestly, if I'd have thought of it and we hadn't agreed to an autopsy, I would have loved to have brought her home with us so that my parents, sister, niece & daughter would have been able to see her and hold her without all the tubes and wires and tape.

When your child dies, you have a very, very short amount of time to make memories ... you do what you want, what you think is right, what you think is going to get you through the rest of your life without your child. I hate everything Rick Santorum stands for, but it sounds like they have no regrets with regard to their son and how they handled his death ... and that is something very, very precious.

[desertvixen]

His wife had to go through a procedure to save her own life and it is a choice that he wants to deny every other woman. On top of that, in Santorum's world, the doctors who helped his wife through this procedure would be arrested for murder. I wish that was brought up more in this campaign. Well, I wish it was brought up at all.

This cannot be said enough - especially the bolded. They were faced with an incredibly painful and difficult situation, and for that I have pity. I lose all pity for him when he wants to take that choice away from everyone else. He can take refuge in the doctrine of double effect all he wants, but the bottom line is that they were able to make their own best decision out a selection of bad ones, and he wants to remove that choice from other women.

We're learning more and more that caring for a lost child in death can promote healing for the parents. We don't yet know what kind of outcomes will be experienced by children who have had this same exposure. Grief is a private process, the Santorums like other fundies injected a public aspect when writing their book. They also chose to make this child death part of their own profit motives when they wrote the book and used their dead baby as a political tool. Sounds familiar huh?

I can respect anyone's private grief process, I cannot respect people like Frothy et al for denying other women the diagnostic tools to determine fetal health or birth outcomes. I cannot and will not respect the Santorums for refusing women the same choices Karen was given during her complicated pregnancy.

This, completely.

But I am not a fan of the whole "Fluffy went to live on a farm" school of death talks to children, and I do think kids need to learn about death. I think seeing the body and participating in a grief ritual is a much healthier way to do so than just coming home all like "No, the baby isn't in Mommy's tummy any more. No, the baby isn't coming home. Go and watch Veggietales while Mommy locks herself in the bathroom and cries."

This.

[0KidsAndHappy]

When he started up his shit saying prenatal testing should not be allowed, I kept waiting for at least one journalist to ask him, "Sir, how would you have known your precious Gabriel had the bladder defect without prenatal testing? Don't you think all women and their partners should have the same right you and your wife did to know in advance of any problems and perhaps even be able save the pregnancy in utero if possible?

Never happened, of course.

Not only did they skip over asking him that, but they didn't have doctors or women who have had to have prenatal testing for any reason on any news shows that I saw. Santorum said it, it was brought up for a few hours, and then nothing more. No debating it, no questioning the absurdity of what he said, nothing.

I can't deal with people who go around claiming that no one questioned anything about Obama during the last election and are criticizing everything about the GOP choices. These people are going through this entire process without having to answer for anything they say. And when someone does have the gall to ask a question that should be answered, they get ridiculed as part of the lamestream media and the crazies on the right eat it up.

:x

[meow139]

:shock: Umm, Frothy? are you sure that is truly healthy?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/01/320232/

It sounds unusual but I really dislike judging how other people grieve. However, I thought that I would start a thread to see what you guys think. From what I have read, his wife wrote about the incident in a book called Letters to Gabriel. If she chose to make it public, I don't see why it can't be discussed.

Apparently, they brought the baby home to show their children.

Other cultures have different methods of dealing with death than we do. Hopefully, he asked his children's opinion before bringing home the body.

I'm curious about other's opinion.

[Librul]

I do not understand this man, his wife, and their "Traditional, Catholic Theology" at all.

Getting prenatal testing for the purpose of "deciding" what to do with the fetus=NO GO for the devout practicing Catholic.

Inducing labor at 20 weeks because the fetus has anomolies incompatable with life= NO GO for the devout practicing Catholic.

Inducing labor at 20 weeks because the mother's life is in danger= NO GO for the devout practicing Catholic.

The last two scenarios = abortion.

Yet, Frothy and Mrs. Frothy have made these exact choices. They just don't want anyone ELSE to make these choices.

How did Frothy, his Mrs., (who lived, sans sacraments, with an abortionist for 6 years, and Gingrich, (whose multiple marriages /affairs divorces/anulments are a complete sacramental joke) become the poster boys for Catholicism?

As a Catholic, I am absolutely gobsmacked. However, as someone who wants to see these people defeated, I must say...keep that hypocricy coming.

(also, I am not a newbie... I should have Children Stacked as Cordwood, but my posts didn't get transfered)

[desertvixen]

Inducing labor at 20 weeks because the fetus has anomolies incompatable with life= NO GO for the devout practicing Catholic.

Inducing labor at 20 weeks because the mother's life is in danger= NO GO for the devout practicing Catholic.

In most of the stuff I've read about the situation (including his own POV), his stand is that it was a side effect of the antibiotics, not the intent. So the double effect allowed in Catholicism. They didn't have an abortion (even though ironically that would probably have been better for his wife), they just gave her a medication that had the side effect of premature labor. /Catholic sarcasm

Yes, I pretty much hate him - he's basically totally okay with the government dictating things as long as they dictate things he approves of.