Santorum And The Body His Deceased Child

[debrand]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/01/320232/

It sounds unusual but I really dislike judging how other people grieve. However, I thought that I would start a thread to see what you guys think. From what I have read, his wife wrote about the incident in a book called Letters to Gabriel. If she chose to make it public, I don't see why it can't be discussed.

In a 2005 New York Times Magazine profile by writer Mike Sokolove described how the Santorum family reacted to the tragedy: “Rick and Karen Santorum would not let the morgue take the corpse of their newborn; they slept that night in the hospital with their lifeless baby between them.â€

Apparently, they brought the baby home to show their children.

Other cultures have different methods of dealing with death than we do. Hopefully, he asked his children's opinion before bringing home the body.

I'm curious about other's opinion.

[Eoywin]

I think that is super creepy and possibly damaging to their living kids, if the kids weren't asked beforehand. But to each their own, I guess

[notsocommon]

I think there are certain 'untouchables' and this is one. It is pretty low to slam someone for how they grieve.

[Iamthatbean]

I think the family should have the right to grieve however they see fit. I honestly am tired of hearing about this everywhere. I don't think you can understand losing a child until you've lost one. Still...I am sure he didn't force his children to hold or see it...at least I would hope not. As long as they were willing participants, I don't see an issue

[debrand]

I think there are certain 'untouchables' and this is one. It is pretty low to slam someone for how they grieve.

I haven't slammed them on this issue nor did my post sound negative.

Also, if I am not mistaken, the Santorum did make the subject public so they must know that people will discuss their actions.

[Deleted03]

I don't find it creepy... People used to have wakes in their homes with the bodies of the deceased. Much less creepy than the people who have photoshoots with the embryos they miscarried IMO.

I take it this was a viable baby that did not survive after birth? I think that's enough trauma, and bringing home the baby might have also helped with the grieving process. I bet there's nothing worse than coming home from the hospital with nothing in your arms.

The rationale may be a little disturbing, but the idea was maybe to grieve as a family? I don't know, I don't want to defend him, but I think there are so many wrong things with this guy, that his form of grieving a baby who did not make it is not one of them.

[debrand]

I think the family should have the right to grieve however they see fit. I honestly am tired of hearing about this everywhere. I don't think you can understand losing a child until you've lost one. Still...I am sure he didn't force his children to hold or see it...at least I would hope not. As long as they were willing participants, I don't see an issue

Until this morning, I had not heard about their actions after the death of their child. This is new to me.

[debrand]

I don't find it creepy... People used to have wakes in their homes with the bodies of the deceased. Much less creepy than the people who have photoshoots with the embryos they miscarried IMO.

I take it this was a viable baby that did not survive after birth? I think that's enough trauma, and bringing home the baby might have also helped with the grieving process. I bet there's nothing worse than coming home from the hospital with nothing in your arms.

The rationale may be a little disturbing, but the idea was maybe to grieve as a family? I don't know, I don't want to defend him, but I think there are so many wrong things with this guy, that his form of grieving a baby who did not make it is not one of them.

I agree. It is very hard to judge another's grieving process. My mother never felt like she got the opportunity to grieve her first husband's death. The doctors prescribed her tranquilizers to numb her pain. In the sixties, I guess women weren't supposed to grieve too much.

Because the Santorums are the ones that made this public, my guess is that they understand that it will be discussed.

Aren't there cultures where it is still common to keep the corpse in the family home?

[tkr322]

I do think it is weird (coming from someone with 2 miscarriages) but again, it's not my place to judge how someone grieves. I do think it probably wasn't a good idea to bring the kids into it, I'm sure that has scarred them for life. However, again, so many people grieve differently than others.

Also, Santorum is all sorts of crazy and this is not one of things I would bring up to describe his crazy, there are plenty more examples for that.

[Clementine]

I think that showing the dead baby to the siblings (and close family) can be a good part in the grieving and healing process.

Here the hospitals encourage parents to let the siblings see the diseased baby, touch it, kiss it, (if they want to) take photos with the baby... I have seen photos of families posing with the baby they lost and there's nothing scary about it, it's just incredibly sad.

That said - in these cases the baby has been carried full term or almost full term, so it looks like a normal baby that is sleeping.

I think it may be a lot scarier for young children to see a baby that was lost in week 15 or so or if there was something wrong with the baby. I worked with a woman who lost the baby in after 15 weeks of pregnancy and it wasn't discovered until two weeks later.

She loved to show photos of her little 15 week old son and... these photos were not something that I would show to a child. I understand and respect her grief and that the photos may be conforting to her. I wish she had shown us the same respect and didn't show the photos without asking first.

[debrand]

I do think it is weird (coming from someone with 2 miscarriages) but again, it's not my place to judge how someone grieves. I do think it probably wasn't a good idea to bring the kids into it, I'm sure that has scarred them for life. However, again, so many people grieve differently than others.

Also, Santorum is all sorts of crazy and this is not one of things I would bring up to describe his crazy, there are plenty more examples for that.

Hopefully, no one thinks that I brought this up to illustrate his craziness. As you wrote, there are many examples of his bizarre views. This is the one area that I can have sympathy with him.

We've written about other posters who brought miscarried fetuses home. It struck me as interesting that Santorum had brought his dead baby home.

In the American culture, his actions are bizarre. In other cultures, I am not certain that his actions would be seen as bizarre or even unusual.

It is strange that people are uncomfortable discussing this. It doesn't have to be a negative thread. I wish that our culture was not so frightened about death and discussing grief.

[Deleted03]

I agree. It is very hard to judge another's grieving process. My mother never felt like she got the opportunity to grieve her first husband's death. The doctors prescribed her tranquilizers to numb her pain. In the sixties, I guess women weren't supposed to grieve too much.

Because the Santorums are the ones that made this public, my guess is that they understand that it will be discussed.

Aren't there cultures where it is still common to keep the corpse in the family home?

I don't know exactly, maybe in South America they still do it? You know I think it depends on legislation/hygiene changes.

In Madagascar, some of the clans get the bones of their deceased a year after they died. It's a celebration, they are all happy to get the remains and I think there's hugs involved (I have a good friend from Mada who assisted to ceremonies like that)

In some African cultures, relatives hug and kiss the deceased relatives. Which makes fight against cholera very complicated.

[theologygeek]

Welcome to Catholic wakes where you have to see a corpse because the casket is open. My parents started me early on with wakes so I would get used to death being a part of the cycle of life. I know other people who were not allowed to go to wakes as children and they freak out when they have to go to one. I don't see anything wrong with showing kids a dead body because that is how I was raised.

[alysee]

Welcome to Catholic wakes where you have to see a corpse because the casket is open. My parents started me early on with wakes so I would get used to death being a part of the cycle of life. I know other people who were not allowed to go to wakes as children and they freak out when they have to go to one. I don't see anything wrong with showing kids a dead body because that is how I was raised.

Same here! As well, we used to visit and have lunch beside my relatives. It wasn't creepy, it's a part of life.

[notsocommon]

I haven't slammed them on this issue nor did my post sound negative.

Also, if I am not mistaken, the Santorum did make the subject public so they must know that people will discuss their actions.

I did not mean you, but the guy in the article who was being an ass about it. Yes, it is odd, but the quote fom whatshisbutt is just over the line. Sure, they made it public, but some people need to learn decency.

FTR, I can not stand Frothy. At all.

[debrand]

Welcome to Catholic wakes where you have to see a corpse because the casket is open. My parents started me early on with wakes so I would get used to death being a part of the cycle of life. I know other people who were not allowed to go to wakes as children and they freak out when they have to go to one. I don't see anything wrong with showing kids a dead body because that is how I was raised.

I agree. When I was ten, my mother gave me the choice to attend my grandfather's open casket service. My cousin, who wa also ten, was not given that opportunity. I had no emotional connection to my grandfather. He was abusive and left his wife. However, I appreciated being able to attend his funeral. I wasn't frightened or traumatized. It gave me a connection to someone that is part of my biological makeup(even if he was an abusive ass)

[Third]

I am creeped out I won't lie. While I don't think it's right for my children I don't think it's wrong across the board. Sleeping with their baby between them seems like a very broken thing to do. I cannot imagine sleeping with my passed child. My heart goes out to them.

A friend of mine had to wait 4 days before she could go to the hospital to be induced to deliver her still born daughter. I don't know how she handled it. I personally don't know how she didn't need to be given sedatives.

As for people debating this publicly. If you don't want your private life debated -- keep it private. Now if this was exposed it some back handed way but if you tell people be prepared not everyone will believe the same as you.

[debrand]

I did not mean you, but the guy in the article who was being an ass about it. Yes, it is odd, but the quote fom whatshisbutt is just over the line. Sure, they made it public, but some people need to learn decency.

FTR, I can not stand Frothy. At all.

Oh good. LOL

I looked for a more compassionate article but most just concentrate on the weirdness of his actions. I understand that some might find it creepy. I'd like to think that those people understand that their visceral reaction is influenced by their culture

I can not stand Frothy either and think that he might be crazy. However, I am really not trying to knock him in this thread.

[luckylibrarian]

I didn't realize wakes with an open casket were a Catholic thing. :think: I attended several as a kid, and I don't like them, but that's my personal preference. I find it too upsetting. When my grandfather passed away two years ago, they skipped the open casket service, and he was cremated. I was relieved. Seeing him like that would have been too hard.

I can't fault the Santorum's for bringing the body home. I just hope they gave their kids a chance to decline seeing it, but somehow, I doubt it. How far along was she? I'm assuming the baby was viable.

[longskirtlotsakids]

I don't find it creepy either. Death is a fact of life and the hiding of it in American life is just so funeral directors can make bank.

There is a movie called "A family Undertaking" from PBS. It was a wonderful movie. I have had a lot of tragic losses and one of the things that was empowering was being in charge of the service and how the body was treated.

Losing a baby is one of the worst of pains. I don;t think it would be damaging to the kids, I am sure they dressed the baby and tried to make it look peaceful.

[nomi]

I cannot begin to fathom the loss of a full term infant. I would probably go off my rocker to be honest, but i will say this. That baby would not leave my arms until they put it in the ground except for burial preparation (which I would prefer to do myself). We all grieve in different ways and I can't pass judgment or deem something as "weird" when a person is suffering. I know a woman who had a full term loss and had a Real Baby made of her dead son from the pictures done by Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep (an amazing organization). She carried the doll around for a few months and then quietly put him away. She said it helped and while I do think it's odd and unhealthy, it made her feel better about a tragic loss and who am I to say it's wrong just because it's different from the status quo.

I have an aunt who had a stillbirth back in the 60s and they wouldn't even let her see the baby. They just whisked her away, put her in a coffin, and buried her...all while she was still in the hospital. She said that all she wanted was to just hold her one time, to say goodbye and how much she loved her. That any sort of memento would mean the world to her. Instead, it was something shameful, a flaw if you will, and it was shoved under a rug and everyone just went on like she'd never been pregnant or lost a child.

[JenniferJuniper]

I do think bringing a miscarried or stillborn baby home to be passed around to very young children is macabre, but the full story of Gabriel is worth knowing because it displays yet more of Santorum's stunning hypocrisy.

Recently, Santorum said he opposes all prenatal screening. Well, apparently he only opposes it for other people, because as you can see in this very pro-Santorum article from a Catholic website, prenatal testing is how the Santorums learned that Gabriel had a bladder condition and that they could possibly save the baby with intrauterine surgery.

Speaking gently in down-to-earth terms, Adzick explained that, although the situation was very serious, there was some chance that that the child could be saved through a shunt procedure. The Santorums readily agreed, and on the way home from the hospital they chose a name — Gabriel Michael, after the two archangels. "So, my beautiful son, you now have a name," Karen wrote in a letter to Gabriel. Although the procedure was risky, Gabriel survived. For a while, it looked as if the Santorums had indeed managed to save the life of their son.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/ ... recnum=657

The surgery actually did work, but an infection spread to the amniotic sac, and Mrs. Santorum became very ill and had to deliver the 20 week fetus early to save her own life. (hmmmm. As the fetus was almost certainly not viable then, some might consider that a voluntary abortion)

Bottom line, prenatal testing was used by the Santorums and they possibly could have saved the fetus with the surgery if things hadn't turned badly. Moral of the story: Only the Santorums get to find out prior to delivery if their fetus has an abnormality, curable or otherwise. Screw everyone else.

Fuck you, Frothy, and the lube you slid in on.

[theologygeek]

I agree. When I was ten, my mother gave me the choice to attend my grandfather's open casket service. My cousin, who wa also ten, was not given that opportunity. I had no emotional connection to my grandfather. He was abusive and left his wife. However, I appreciated being able to attend his funeral. I wasn't frightened or traumatized. It gave me a connection to someone that is part of my biological makeup(even if he was an abusive ass)

I didn't have a choice. My kids didn't either. My first wake was at five years old when my aunt died. I can still remember someone saying to me "She's not dead. She's just sleeping." My mother got mad and told her not to tell me that.

[Avalondaughter]

It does creep me out quite a bit. Yes, people have wakes, they have them with open caskets and can have them in their homes. In cases like this, the embalmed body is sitting in a coffin. It's ready for burial. People may touch it, but no one is hopping in the casket with it.

Maybe people do strange things with bodies in other cultures, but we don't do it in this one, and I think the idea of not just taking a body into your home and sleeping with it in your bed is well outside our culturual norms and I have to wonder just how their minds were at the time this happened. I am reminded of the book, "The Prince of Tides" where the protagonist's sister removed a stillborn baby from the freezer prior to burial and sat up all night cuddling it. The girl would suffer from mental illness her entire life. It sounds to me like the Santorums went a little crazy with grief and it has been poisoning how they look at pregnancy and childbirth ever after (like the Duggars).

[sassyNoz47]

i thought this was the baby that was lost around 20 weeks? the one that they had to deliver?