Santorum And College

[contrary]

HAHAHAHA. omg, that headline made my DAY.

[thoughtful]

http://weldbham.com/secondfront/2012/02/24/poll-santorum-comes-from-behind-in-alabama-three-way/?fb_comment_id=fbc_10150632107603329_21027759_10150638729633329#f11c3b74b4

The title is "Santorum Comes from Behind in Alabama Three Way". The media HAS to be doing this on purpose!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Frothy goodness!

[sarahbrownie]

well said, baylee. that's exactly how i feel, and what i was trying to say a few pages back.

it boggles that this guy could be taken seriously at all, much less get elected....but, well, here we are!

They're turning to him because Mitt Romney sucks as a candidate and he's Mormon. I'm sure a lot of people rather have a Catholic than a man who believes God comes from the planet Kolob.

[emmiedahl]

Why does Romney suck as a candidate?

I am not exactly a fan but he seems like the least crazy of the bunch.

[Buzzard]

Why does Romney suck as a candidate?

I am not exactly a fan but he seems like the least crazy of the bunch.

Agreed. I voted for him!

[Kelya]

Why does Romney suck as a candidate?

I am not exactly a fan but he seems like the least crazy of the bunch.

I vote on social issues, with a smattering of fiscal issues if there's a close race. Please read his values page, in which he states, on his website, he wants to overturn Roe vs. Wade. Less crazy? Barely.

http://www.mittromney.com/issues/values

[emmiedahl]

I am sure they want to! No one president is going to overturn Roe vs. Wade. In their dreams, maybe. In reality, they don't control the Supreme Court.

Not that I would vote for Romney, but he seems like the most moderate of a very extreme group. Especially if you look at what he has done as a politician and not the more extreme stuff that they say in campaigns.

I find the silence of the democrats both disturbing and interesting. I assume they are either watching in shock, like the rest of us, or they are just letting the Republicans shoot themselves in the foot.

[sarahbrownie]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/2 ... f=religion

Huff Post did a follow-up in response to Frothy's remarks.

"There is no statistical difference in the dropout rate among those who attended college and those that did not attend college," said Thom Rainer, president of the Southern Baptists' LifeWay Christian Resources research firm. "Going to college doesn't make you a religious dropout."

"Higher education is not the villain," said Catholic University sociologist William D'Antonio. Since 1986, D'Antonio's surveys of American Catholics have asked about Mass attendance, the importance of religion in people's lives and whether they have considered leaving Catholicism.

The percentage of Catholics who scored low on all three points hovers between 18 percent in 1993 and 14 percent in 2011. But the percentage of people who are highly committed fell from 27 percent to 19 percent.

"Blame mortality," D'Antonio said, "The most highly committed Catholics are seniors, and they're dying out."

Chances are that people listen to reason? Probably slim since he's projected to win Michigan.

[evenstar210]

More responses to the Frothiness (this time from the ebil librul New York Times):

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/28/opini ... ml?_r=1&hp

Money quote:

"If you couple the selectiveness and stridency of Santorum’s lament about college with his and his wife’s decision to home-school all seven of their children, you have to wonder if his real beef with higher education is that it threatens the indoctrination that has sometimes occurred already around the kitchen table."

SOTDRT anyone?

[desertvixen]

Why does Romney suck as a candidate?

I am not exactly a fan but he seems like the least crazy of the bunch.

These are my sentiments, pretty much.

As to why they think he sucks:

1) Mormon

2) Into compromise and being pragmatic, which they see as wishy-washy

[lilwriter85]

These are my sentiments, pretty much.

As to why they think he sucks:

1) Mormon

2) Into compromise and being pragmatic, which they see as wishy-washy

I agree with those. I agree with emmie and others Romney is the least crazy of the bunch. I have been disgusted quite a bit for the past couple of months with the anti-Mormon attitudes that some people are showing.

[BayLee_10]

Just shoot me, I can barely get this out due to clenched teeth...Newt Gingrich is beginning to sound like the sanest Republican candidate, fat headed bounder that he is. My grandparents on my mother's side were Republicans, but they were sane people. Where did the sane go?

[freealljs]

Just shoot me, I can barely get this out due to clenched teeth...Newt Gingrich is beginning to sound like the sanest Republican candidate, fat headed bounder that he is. My grandparents on my mother's side were Republicans, but they were sane people. Where did the sane go?

My father is a staunch Republican. But he said if Santorum wins the GOP nom, he may not vote in the pres. election.

As for Newt, I had him as a lecturer many years ago for a pre-law class. He was a visiting lecturer at the university I was attending. (Ok, I'm from Georgia). He was actually pretty good. He came across as very intelligent and not so conservative (like he was more moderate in his political and legal views in the classroom), not like the pompous conservative moron that is shown on TV. Would I vote for him? No.

I also met Romney briefly when he headed the Atlanta Olympics. He's not as stiff and robotic as he appears on TV. Would I vote for him? No.

I've never met Santorum and hope I never do, because that man reminds me of my former pastor when I was fundie-nuts: crazy and narrow-minded.

[ems]

Oh, how I wish someone would superglue Santorum's mouth shut.

But then his craaazy is just like watching a train wreck. If he shut up....maybe I could get off FJ and do some work for my liberal indoctrination center graduate program.

Seriously, though, his past couple of rants, on the 1st Amendment, "radical environmentalists" and now the supposed evils of college all sound so familiar. In fact, they sound like those of so many bloggers discussed here. This can't be good for him as a politician.

He's been crazy, but have the Duggars been slipping him Kool Aid?

[koolmom]

I feel kind of dirty after reading it. But what else is she supposed to say? Poor kid...if your last name now meant a frothy mix of fecal matter and lube, I would probably try to do everything in my power to not think at all too.

Reading Elizabeth's interview kind of creeped me out, too. The interviewer seemed like she asked the right questions, and Lizzie answered her back the usual party line responses. I feel kind of sorry for Elizabeth, something tells me deep down she knows Dad's got a few screws loose, but when it's your parent, and Mom props him up all your life, what other views could she have? An aside, I take issue with her line, "My dad helped thousands of single mothers get back on their feet" after his so-called "welfare reform". All he did was sign off thousands of poor families to even worse grinding poverty than they were already "enjoying". Thanks, Rick. Wonder how many aborted babies came about thanks to that move?

Sorry, but I see kids like Elizabeth as nothing more than hostages, a la WBC church or the FLDS'ers. They've managed to find a comfortable niche within their own family, and hope that will carry them to whatever life has in store for them onwards. I say the most three dreaded words to be ever uttered in the Santorum household are, "Daddy, I'm pregnant".

[Elle]

I think everyone here knows I'm anti-every-kid-MUST-go-to-college because not everything requires college and it's just plain wrong to saddle a kid with debt from a 4-year-school if what that kid really wants to do is a job that would pay enough to pay the bills and set aside a bit into savings, but can't do because college loans must be repaid. I'm a big fan of encouraging trade schools over 4-year colleges unless there's something someone wants to do that can't be learned at a trade school. Not everyone wants to be a doctor of lawyer or go into one of the top-dollar careers. Many people actually want to be electricians, plumbers, or EMTs. Even being a police office isn't a 4-year college position. And many cops don't make enough money to comfortably repay student loans while trying to pay the regular bills. I also don't think parents should be putting college ahead of their own retirements. Students can take loans for school. You can't get loans to pay for your retirement years, and it's just not fair to put the responsibility of paying for us when we're too old to work onto our kids.

Oh, as as for how no rational person would think every kid should go to college? Walk into most high schools around January and talk to seniors. They're under pressure to decide which college to go to. To many of them, college is something they're just supposed to do, and if they can't get the money somehow, it's kind of an embarrassing thing. It's being resented to kids as college is the correct next step. The phrase "When you go to college" puts it in kids' heads that they're supposed to do it. Even in our adult world, the solution to everything seems to be to go to college. Can't get a job? Go to college and get another degree, and it doesn't matter if the degree has any use in the real world. Just do it. Just do it. College is the right thing, always always always. Go to college, go to college, and those who say that college isn't always the right path are usually insulted as being against learning in general, or jealous that they didn't go to college, or must have some personal agenda against education.

But...Obama didn't say every kid should go to college, just that they have the chance to go to college if that is what they want. Santorum has twisted it and basically his stance seems to be college for none, like the fundies who don't let their kids go to college even if those kids want to while they themselves hold degrees. It's wrong to benefit from something while saying no one else should have it. It's one thing to say that one's own path may not be, or probably isn't, the best one for everyone, but his schpiel about trade schools comes off as more of an afterthought. He is trying to appeal to the people who either don't want to go to college, or want to go but can't justify the debt (there are classes I'd love to take, but since they wouldn't further my own job but would saddle us with debt, I can't justify it, I can't justify hundreds of dollars a month to learn about world history and fine arts when we have more pressing things to worry about, and these things wouldn't help bring in one penny to pay for them).

[liltwinstar]

Why do we even have a distinction between "college" and "vocational education"?? Couldn't the argument be made that law school, medical school, etc are "vocational" institutions? I mean, you don't go to med school to be a plumber; med school prepares you for a vocation!

Anyway, I think it's crystal clear that the vast majority of people will need some sort of post-high school education. That could be a liberal arts degree, it could be a practical degree (like accounting, it could be trade school. All of that is good - and any way you go, it costs a bundle! It's pretty obvious that the days of graduating from high school and getting a well-paid, union position at the local "plant" are over. So Santorum needs to get with the times.

I would argue that we need to get over the white collar v. blue collar divide/conflict. We need everyone! We need professors to expand our views of culture and history just as much as we need mechanics to work on our cars.

[JesusFightClub]

US universities and colleges indoctrinate their students in left wing thought? I find that incredibly hard to believe.

The UK and particularly Scotland is further to the left than the US and I did an arts degree at a Scottish university. I can honestly say I was not indoctrinated by any of my instructors ever. In fact I can remember politics being mentioned *twice* in four years, once was a professor from a foreign country who was strongly anti Communist telling us about his run-ins with the Communist party, and one was a senior lecturer telling us he didn't like Margaret Thatcher (in the pub after lectures). The latter is hardly a minority view in Scotland. If anything I got the piss ripped out of me for being a stereotypical obnoxious student Marxist, which was fair play because as a junior commie I was EXTREMELY dislikeable. (I shudder to remember those days. Suffice it to say that FJ newbies would have had nothing on me. )

So the much more right wing US, where many of the populace would vote for Santorum and there is a strong bias against socialism and communism, is somehow being indoctrinated into belonging to the far left via state schools and college education? Does not compute.

[Elle]

Why do we even have a distinction between "college" and "vocational education"?? Couldn't the argument be made that law school, medical school, etc are "vocational" institutions? I mean, you don't go to med school to be a plumber; med school prepares you for a vocation!

Anyway, I think it's crystal clear that the vast majority of people will need some sort of post-high school education. That could be a liberal arts degree, it could be a practical degree (like accounting, it could be trade school. All of that is good - and any way you go, it costs a bundle! It's pretty obvious that the days of graduating from high school and getting a well-paid, union position at the local "plant" are over. So Santorum needs to get with the times.

I would argue that we need to get over the white collar v. blue collar divide/conflict. We need everyone! We need professors to expand our views of culture and history just as much as we need mechanics to work on our cars.

College degrees also include the two years of general ed. At the colleges I looked into, you could get a certificate in a program, but couldn't get a degree without taking those general courses. Literally you could take every class specific to a program, but you're not getting the degree without English 101.

I think we should cut back on the advanced math classes and such kids are NEVER going to use (save for the rare few who will go into physics or something) and use a year or two of high school time training kids to actually work. My high school offered credit for trade training, You could leave a couple hours a day if you were going to a trade program of ANY sort, and it counted toward graduating. It does a kid a lot more good to take classes in mechanics if that student wants to fix cars than to sit in a trig class. I think that would prepare kids for the real world much better. That way kids could graduate and actually a have a chance at getting a job.

I agree so much that the blue/white collar crap needs to end. That's what it comes down to. A college degree has some elitism over trade schools or old fashioned starting from the bottom. For kids who aren't going to get to go to college, they feel looked down upon. Just like how a lot of working blue-collar people feel they are treated by white-collar. Mike Rowe, the DIrty Jobs guy, said America needs to stop looking down on the manual jobs, the dirty jobs, the jobs that aren't "elite." These days those are the jobs that can't be outsourced so easily. They are jobs, and they are positions that have started to see a shortage of workers as everyone's been made to feel that they're doing something wrong for not going to college.

Why shouldn't the divide be working or not working? (Looking for a job counts as working.) Why have some hierarchy among the working? Why look down on someone for fixing toilets for a living? It has to be done, and most of us will hire that toilet guy at some point. It's a perfectly respectable job that gets a lot of shit (no pun intended) for not being a fancy office job with a college degree.

[contrary]

Just shoot me, I can barely get this out due to clenched teeth...Newt Gingrich is beginning to sound like the sanest Republican candidate, fat headed bounder that he is. My grandparents on my mother's side were Republicans, but they were sane people. Where did the sane go?

This is just speculation on my part, but i think america has swung so right...it's possible that the "right wing republicans" of a few generations ago were FAR more moderate that would be "republicanically acceptable now"...so our grandparent's brand of Rep. was more what the moderate Dems are now, while the Dems were FAR more left than they are now.

Politics and the winners of elections have taken a HARD swing right, and moved everybody (who wins, anyway) so far right that today's democrats are yesterday's right wingers.

and santorum? ugh. i can't even...

[Future Teacher]

I guess I haven't run into many who was never "anti-college" but I know there's pressure to go. I remember senior year almost everyone was going to a college and not just taking a year off. I realize now I should've but at the time I thought I had to. A lot of people have been successful without college however, it depends on the person.

Seriously Santorum as possible president scares me. I think I might join my reletives in Canada.....

[debrand]

[101.

I think we should cut back on the advanced math classes and such kids are NEVER going to use (save for the rare few who will go into physics or something) and use a year or two of high school time training kids to actually work. My high school offered credit for trade training, You could leave a couple hours a day if you were going to a trade program of ANY sort, and it counted toward graduating. It does a kid a lot more good to take classes in mechanics if that student wants to fix cars than to sit in a trig class. I think that would prepare kids for the real world much better. That way kids could graduate and actually a have a chance at getting a job.

.

Maybe high school has changed since I graduated in 85. Kids could take higher math if they wanted to get into college. Most kids did. However, no one had to take Algebra or Trig. They could take basic math if they wanted and still graduate. Is that not true anymore?

[Kitty]

Maybe high school has changed since I graduated in 85. Kids could take higher math if they wanted to get into college. Most kids did. However, no one had to take Algebra or Trig. They could take basic math if they wanted and still graduate. Is that not true anymore?

In many schools you have to have 3 math credits to graduate. In NC, depending on the "pathway" you take (Career Prep, College Tech Prep, College/University Prep) you might have to take 4. One of those has to be Algebra I. I graduated with 5 math credits, because I took Algebra I in 8th grade but it didn't count for a credit until something changed in my senior year of high school.

[apple1]

This is just speculation on my part, but i think america has swung so right...it's possible that the "right wing republicans" of a few generations ago were FAR more moderate that would be "republicanically acceptable now"...

That. Combined with a burgeoning amount of people who no longer read (I mean, back when, even most "non-readers" read the newspaper...), have no reading comprehension, consequently also no ability to think "deeper than the thickness of a sheet of paper, and completely believe TV sound bytes from Faux News or from the mouths of politicians. Very worrisome.

I keep telling myself that part of it is a vocal minority, and that the silent majority will prevail. We will see.

ETA: I wonder how much of the Santorum primary vote was actual Dems who consider S unelectable, thus a strategy vote in the primary (???) Saw a couple of exit poll commenters say this on CNN last night.

[sarahbrownie]

Maybe high school has changed since I graduated in 85. Kids could take higher math if they wanted to get into college. Most kids did. However, no one had to take Algebra or Trig. They could take basic math if they wanted and still graduate. Is that not true anymore?

Depends on the state. In New York I had to pass Algebra and Trig. (called Math A) in order to get my diploma. However, Math B (pre-calculus/calc./statistics) was optional, but some SUNY colleges wouldn't even look at your application if you didn't have Math B. I remember having a very difficult time in HS because of this.