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Mars Hill (Mark Driscoll's church) becoming more cult-ish


Black Aliss

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I don't understand why these people let these pastors and churches treat them like punching bags. I grew up going to church, but it didn't take and I haven't been in years, so sometimes when I read these stories I get the sense that maybe I'm missing something. When I read Jen Epstein's account of her family's dealings with Doug Phillips (is a tool) and the BCA and all the garbage that they went through, I was dismayed that anyone would put up with that just to belong to a church. Essentially Jonna's story is the same, just a different church with a different power trippin d-bag at the helm. I've been in situations where a friend/group of friends suddenly turned on me, and my feelings were totally hurt, so I understand wanting answers, but at some point don't you just say "fuck that, I don't need this shit" and walk away? I guess I just don't get it.

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It surprises me that Driscoll's church flourishes in the Seattle area. You would think the folks there would resist his brand of fundie nuttiness. They always seem rather sensible to me.

i live in seattle and it's disgusting to me that i know so many intelligent people who attend Mars Hill. the only way i can reconcile it is that like a poster mentioned above, it is difficult to see how wrong something is when you are IN the midst of it. it IS a cult, and it makes seemingly sensible people do crazy things. i am so thankful my sister got out of it before something awful happened to her! i see the buildings all over (yes, there is one right by the mall in Bellevue) and they give me the creeps!

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I don't understand why these people let these pastors and churches treat them like punching bags. I grew up going to church, but it didn't take and I haven't been in years, so sometimes when I read these stories I get the sense that maybe I'm missing something. When I read Jen Epstein's account of her family's dealings with Doug Phillips (is a tool) and the BCA and all the garbage that they went through, I was dismayed that anyone would put up with that just to belong to a church. Essentially Jonna's story is the same, just a different church with a different power trippin d-bag at the helm. I've been in situations where a friend/group of friends suddenly turned on me, and my feelings were totally hurt, so I understand wanting answers, but at some point don't you just say "fuck that, I don't need this shit" and walk away? I guess I just don't get it.

The thing you never hear from people like Jen Epstein and the Petrys is how they oppressed and took part in victimizing people before their cult leaders pastors turned on them. That's when it became a bad thing. But for the most part, they were happy to take part in it as long as it wasn't directed on them. But as we know, a scorpian is always a scorpian, and not that discriminating in choosing its victims.

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Guest Anonymous

I was under the impression Jen Epstein was only at Doug's church a short while before she was in trouble. does she have a history I could read about, beyond that recorded on her own blog?

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That said Mars Hill Seattle did send a crazy heavy handed attorney drafted letter to a church using the same name in California. That totally confused me at first because it's not like Mars Hill Seattle is the first church to use the name, but then I remembered that Mark Driscoll thinks he's literally God's gift and it made sense.

It looks like the issue was the combination of the name and a look-alike logo. I drove by the church in question and called up a friend and told her Mars Hill had set up shop in town and we needed to go check out the crazy, and was totally disappointed when I looked on their website and they were a normal unaffiliated church, so I can verify that it was really a problem.

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i live in seattle and it's disgusting to me that i know so many intelligent people who attend Mars Hill. the only way i can reconcile it is that like a poster mentioned above, it is difficult to see how wrong something is when you are IN the midst of it. it IS a cult, and it makes seemingly sensible people do crazy things. i am so thankful my sister got out of it before something awful happened to her! i see the buildings all over (yes, there is one right by the mall in Bellevue) and they give me the creeps!

I always scratched my head over this as well. Have friends in the Seattle area and have traveled there, meeting many local folks. Might it also be considered hip to go there? When something is touted as the hip, happening thing, lots of folks will want to join in, thinking that there can be nothing wrong with it. Because, you know it's hip, it's popular.

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After reading the comment sections on various articles on my local newspaper, I think Yakima will welcome Mars Hill. :roll:

Someone else wondered how Mars Hill could thrive in Liberal Seattle. I think whenever you have some 3,500,000 people (metro area) you're going to end up with a few nutcakes. We probably have a smaller percentage of fundies/homophobes/assorted-whackos than other population areas of that size.

Their buildings in Seattle are in weird areas. I don't know if that is on purpose or if they just got a screamin' deal on the lease.

Mars Hill recently signed a lease for a beautiful old building downtown that was formerly a Methodist church. It's been underutilized as a concert venue ever since a real estate developer bought it and saved it from the wrecking ball. He'd planned to cover the cost by building an office highrise on the rest of the block, but there's not much demand for office space in downtown Seattle these days. Thinking of those creeps worshipping in that space almost makes me wish the building had been knocked down.

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I live near-ish Seattle. There are just not a lot of religious people out there; most of them live over the mountains near me. However, there is a certain strain of hip, faux-tolerant Christianity that seems popular in parts of Seattle. Is Mars Hill like that--you know, tatted up hipsters who are all about loving the sinner and quietly judging them?

One thing about Seattle, and the PNW in general, is that it is not a very friendly place. People are so nice, but they will not make steps to be-friend a new person. I definitely get the feeling around here that people are just not in the market for new friends. There was an article about it in a Seattle newspaper and I am apparently not the only one who has gotten a standoffish vibe at times from lifelong residents. So, people who are new to the area tend to be hungry for social opportunities and community. It is easy to see how a large megachurch could capitalize on this.

A funny story from the article: someone who was recruited by a major company and recently moved to Seattle was at work and a coworker asked them what they are doing that weekend. The noob said something like, "I don't really know anyone yet, but I would love to do something." And the coworker said, "Really? Have fun then!" You get a LOT of that here. It took me years to build up a friend base and most of them are also from out of the area.

eta: I love the PNW and intend to stay here BECAUSE of the awesome people. I don't think most people are trying to be an asshole or anything, but people here tend to be very busy and involved and also, very individualistic. I think it just does not occur to them, with their busy lives and lifelong buddies, that new people would like an invitation. In my experience, if you ask to tag along on an activity, they are surprised but very welcoming. You have to be a little pushy and not sit around waiting for invitations. But, great people out here. The nicest, quirkiest, and most tolerant people I have ever known in fact!

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I was under the impression Jen Epstein was only at Doug's church a short while before she was in trouble. does she have a history I could read about, beyond that recorded on her own blog?

Don't think there's an impartial or third-party history except, perhaps, for Kathryn Joyce's account in Quiverfull. Otherwise, everything still out there is on her side or the product of a Dougie sycophant. By Jen's own account, the Epsteins were at the church for at least a few months before things began going bad. It was long enough for their kids to make good friends & become very fond of other adults in the congregation who cut off any contact after the trouble started. Her older daughter, Natasha, was devastated by this treatment since girls she had considered her best friends turned on her instantly and cut her out of their lives.

Re: the Mars Hill Cult & Driscoll. Their behavior reminds me of the saying "It isn't a party unless someone isn't invited, and it isn't a club unless someone can't join." So third grade.

Re: members-only section of a church's website. I generally agree that a church's website should appear to be open but I could see, for example, restricting online access to members' contact info to other bona fide members.

And, even though we're discussing Driscoll & the Mars Hill Cult, this can't be said too much:

Mars Hill Doug Phillips Is A Tool Mark Driscoll

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Ah, the "Seattle Freeze." Honestly, I've heard of it but never gotten that vibe off people, including the natives. I think a lot of it is personality and culture. Seattle is great; I don't feel the need to pretend like everyone is my best friend and smile at every person I pass on the street as was expected in the town where I previously lived.

As liberal and religiously uncaring as Seattle is, you still have the same super religious people as anywhere else; just fewer of them. There are plenty to fill up Mars Hill. I'd bet that most don't get very involved in the church's inner workings and have little idea of what goes on.

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I live near-ish Seattle. There are just not a lot of religious people out there; most of them live over the mountains near me. However, there is a certain strain of hip, faux-tolerant Christianity that seems popular in parts of Seattle. Is Mars Hill like that--you know, tatted up hipsters who are all about loving the sinner and quietly judging them?

One thing about Seattle, and the PNW in general, is that it is not a very friendly place. People are so nice, but they will not make steps to be-friend a new person. I definitely get the feeling around here that people are just not in the market for new friends. There was an article about it in a Seattle newspaper and I am apparently not the only one who has gotten a standoffish vibe at times from lifelong residents. So, people who are new to the area tend to be hungry for social opportunities and community. It is easy to see how a large megachurch could capitalize on this.

A funny story from the article: someone who was recruited by a major company and recently moved to Seattle was at work and a coworker asked them what they are doing that weekend. The noob said something like, "I don't really know anyone yet, but I would love to do something." And the coworker said, "Really? Have fun then!" You get a LOT of that here. It took me years to build up a friend base and most of them are also from out of the area.

eta: I love the PNW and intend to stay here BECAUSE of the awesome people. I don't think most people are trying to be an asshole or anything, but people here tend to be very busy and involved and also, very individualistic. I think it just does not occur to them, with their busy lives and lifelong buddies, that new people would like an invitation. In my experience, if you ask to tag along on an activity, they are surprised but very welcoming. You have to be a little pushy and not sit around waiting for invitations. But, great people out here. The nicest, quirkiest, and most tolerant people I have ever known in fact!

I have plenty of friends in Seattle, but the other part of the time when I'm in central Wa, I feel uncomfortable. I don't know if it's the schools my kids have gone to or what, but I feel weird - like I'm constantly being recruited to go to church. I think I have a bad taste in my mouth because of a work experience (which thank god- I am not involved in anymore) - Eye contact is weird, too. Like if I say hello to someone on a trail- it's like they have no fucking idea how to respond. It's ultra weird.

Mars Hill seems to attract lots of young/middle agers that are drawn in by the giant screens / and "hip" atmosphere, but it's just a cult dressed up in fancy clothes.

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I don't know enough about Mars Hill to say, but about cults in general, intelligent, even progressive/liberal people are not immune. All it takes is the right hook that touches a person's passion, or their hurt (or both). Jim Jones used social activism and civil rights, as well as charismatic worship services and healings, and drew people from the whole political spectrum. Same thing happened with the cult my family was in for a few years. They hooked many people who were very intelligent, and very socially liberal. Cult involvement doesn't have much to do with intelligence or politics, IMO. There's a particular dynamic and people across the spectrum are vulnerable to it.

So, if Mars Hill is a cult, I'm not shocked that it's in a liberal area at all. If they are drawing in people who lean liberal, they're using a hook that is particularly effective on those types of people.

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I live near-ish Seattle. There are just not a lot of religious people out there; most of them live over the mountains near me. However, there is a certain strain of hip, faux-tolerant Christianity that seems popular in parts of Seattle. Is Mars Hill like that--you know, tatted up hipsters who are all about loving the sinner and quietly judging them?

One thing about Seattle, and the PNW in general, is that it is not a very friendly place. People are so nice, but they will not make steps to be-friend a new person. I definitely get the feeling around here that people are just not in the market for new friends. There was an article about it in a Seattle newspaper and I am apparently not the only one who has gotten a standoffish vibe at times from lifelong residents. So, people who are new to the area tend to be hungry for social opportunities and community. It is easy to see how a large megachurch could capitalize on this.

A funny story from the article: someone who was recruited by a major company and recently moved to Seattle was at work and a coworker asked them what they are doing that weekend. The noob said something like, "I don't really know anyone yet, but I would love to do something." And the coworker said, "Really? Have fun then!" You get a LOT of that here. It took me years to build up a friend base and most of them are also from out of the area.

eta: I love the PNW and intend to stay here BECAUSE of the awesome people. I don't think most people are trying to be an asshole or anything, but people here tend to be very busy and involved and also, very individualistic. I think it just does not occur to them, with their busy lives and lifelong buddies, that new people would like an invitation. In my experience, if you ask to tag along on an activity, they are surprised but very welcoming. You have to be a little pushy and not sit around waiting for invitations. But, great people out here. The nicest, quirkiest, and most tolerant people I have ever known in fact!

hey- I can't reply to PM's. I think I have to get my post count up. :|

email me? dontbehateful at gmail

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I was under the impression Jen Epstein was only at Doug's church a short while before she was in trouble. does she have a history I could read about, beyond that recorded on her own blog?

Beginning at the Beginning

When Mark and I met, we were both living quite wicked lifestyles as unbelievers. We were both soldiers in the US Army stationed in Germany and we ran off to Denmark on a “Darling Denmark†tour to get married in 1985, just four months after we met. Getting married does not change a wicked lifestyle, however, and we continued on in our wickedness. One of the ways in which I was wicked was in committing adultery against my husband, and that sin led to a child, who was given up for adoption. Still, our marriage survived, and I repented of my adultery when I became a Christian not long afterward. It was in the midst of all this wickedness, at the bottom of the barrel for both of us, that God reached down and saved us both in 1990, Mark first, and then me six months later. Although Jesus’ blood atoned for all our sins, there were still many consequences, some of which are life-long, that needed to be dealt with.

During most of the 1990s, we were stationed in Germany for the second time. Although there were a few difficulties here and there, for the most part our marriage was very sound. We were in a wonderful church there for over six years, and it was there that God taught us to be Bereans and search His Word for ourselves.

We moved to San Antonio in 1999 and searched for a similar church, but there is nothing like a military church, and only those who have been in a military church can understand the closeness of the family we had in our church in Germany. We so desired those close relationships again, but we ended up in a mega-church instead. After only a few months, not being able to tolerate the rampant sin in that church, we left and began an intense search for the “perfect†church in 2000.

Jen notes that they were "Bereans" for six years before they came back to the States and moved to San Antonio, and then were part of a megachurch where the people were too sinful for them, so that's how they ended up at Doug's church.

jensgems.wordpress.com/category/jens-story-01/

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He was 1 of the 1st 3 trolls that I started reading on here. His posts creeped me the fuck out. :shock:

I wonder if he still lurks here... :? * shudder *

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He was 1 of the 1st 3 trolls that I started reading on here. His posts creeped me the fuck out. :shock:

I wonder if he still lurks here... :? * shudder *

who?? Mark Driscoll?

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who?? Mark Driscoll?

No, Mark Driscoll has never been to FJ (as far as we know!). The old FJ troll had a similar name but was most definitely not a hipster pastor.

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No, Mark Driscoll has never been to FJ (as far as we know!). The old FJ troll had a similar name but was most definitely not a hipster pastor.

I can't imagine he would! Who is the 'He' Anxious Girl spoke of?

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He is a person with the same first name, whose surname begins with the same consonant blend, but ends "eher". That was his exact username here, as well, if you want to keep your searches to just within FJ. Some other FJers determined that he googles himself, hence the circumspection.

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  • 1 month later...

I saw a Mars Hill church in Albuquerque, NM today. What did NM ever do to deserve this? Isn't enough that we have to put up with Texas :angry-banghead: ? Now we have to put up with this BS too?!!

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I saw a Mars Hill church in Albuquerque, NM today. What did NM ever do to deserve this? Isn't enough that we have to put up with Texas :angry-banghead: ? Now we have to put up with this BS too?!!

They used to meet down at the Lobo Theater on Central by the campus, but now they have their own building. Wanna come crash services with me one Sunday morning? :twisted:

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They used to meet down at the Lobo Theater on Central by the campus, but now they have their own building. Wanna come crash services with me one Sunday morning? :twisted:

I may need more then mars hill as a reason to drive up from Socorro on a Sunday morning. But something could be arranged. I wonder what they would do if they saw me knitting in the service.

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I may need more then mars hill as a reason to drive up from Socorro on a Sunday morning. But something could be arranged. I wonder what they would do if they saw me knitting in the service.

I have a pair of socks I need to finish knitting... :twisted: And I can promise an awesome breakfast and a trip to the Yarn Store at Nob Hill as extra incentive... :D

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I have a pair of socks I need to finish knitting... :twisted: And I can promise an awesome breakfast and a trip to the Yarn Store at Nob Hill as extra incentive... :D

:o i have not been to the nob hill yarn store yet. I have some sock yarn that I need to use up. Its hazel knits 9 ply so it would make a great project for church knitting. Perhaps we could go in two weeks. This weekend is festival of the crayons followed by festival of the cranes next weekend. So, I need to make lip balm this weekend and sell it next weekend.

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