Mars Hill (Mark Driscoll's church) becoming more cult-ish

[Black Aliss]

Interesting article in The Stranger (Seattle alternative paper) about how Mark Driscoll seems to have crossed the line from pastor to cult leader.

To become a "member" at Mars Hill Church requires more than attending church. Becoming a full-fledged member—a process highly encouraged, and sometimes thunderously demanded, in Pastor Mark Driscoll's sermons—requires months of classes and a careful study of Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe, Driscoll's 463-page Mars Hill textbook. To seal the deal, the prospective member must formally agree to submit to the "authority" of the Mars Hill leadership.

The article goes on to describe what happens when a member fails to submit wholeheartedly to this "authority":

In a final, tense meeting, Lance got fed up with the leadership's harping about submission and authority. "How is this not a Jim Jones theology?" Lance remembers asking. "We don't even think you were a Christian to begin with," the pastor retorted, according to Lance, and left the room. The church told him to move out and, if he wouldn't submit to church demands, to cut off any communication with members of Mars Hill.

Lance quit the church.

But the church didn't quit him. Not only was he barred from speaking with his now-former friends at the church, Lance says his pastor threatened to contact any future church that he might attend. And then Lance's pastor took the extra step of calling the father of Lance's girlfriend in Colorado. "They were warning him how dangerous I was," Lance says. "That I was on a path of destruction that could result in the death of his daughter."]

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/chur ... d=12172001

[Guest Anonymous]

Interesting article in The Stranger (Seattle alternative paper) about how Mark Driscoll seems to have crossed the line from pastor to cult leader.

The article goes on to describe what happens when a member fails to submit wholeheartedly to this "authority":

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/chur ... d=12172001

Now this it the point where he should have a taken a play from my neighbor's playbook....which ended with threatening to shove a Bible up somebody's ass.

[debrand]

I am so glad that Driscoll's craziness is being noticed by other people. It's never made sense that he is so popular or that his immature bravado is considered manly instead of jerkish.

To seal the deal, the prospective member must formally agree to submit to the "authority" of the Mars Hill leadership

I had a friend that listened to Christian heavy metal. Because my own pastor thought all music except sloo...oow hymns were antiChristian, I told her how frustrated his views made me. A few days after our conversation she called to make certain that her words did not make me rebel against his authority. She didn't want me to go against anything my pastor taught. For all my pastor's nuttiness, I don't think that he considered his words law, but somehow that was the message she had absorbed in her own church. It bothered me that a friend would think that I should blindly follow anyone. That is crazy. It also goes against scripture.

Mark Driscoll rails against the Catholic church. However, he sets himself up as a pope who wasn't even voted into his office.

But that autumn, he had a disagreement with one of his pastors over a building-safety issue during a church party. As Lance tells it, the pastor said Lance was being overcautious, Lance disagreed, and the disagreement metastasized into a weeks-long debate—not about the safety issue, per se, but about whether Lance was being "insubordinate" and refusing to properly "submit."

That is frightening. Safety issues can be disregarded if the leader informs the person under him to do so. What other rules have the leadership in Mars Hills informed their followers to disregard?

On January 23, Andrew released some internal church disciplinary documents to the blog Matthewpaulturner.net. Andrew had sinned by kissing a woman who wasn't his fiancée and then confessed the sin to his community-group leader.

Isn't confession usually the sign of a cult? In Catholicism, the priest is excommunicated if he discusses what occurs in confession. There is no sort of controls on the leadership of Mars Hill

His "Men and Marriage" sermon was relatively tame: A husband should be the firm and responsible head of his household, the leader of a "little flock called home and family." He should think of his wife as "a garden" and himself as "the gardener." If you look at your garden and don't like how it looks, Driscoll preaches, just remember: "You are the gardener."

Tame? That is offensive. And how do you garden your wife if she doesn't meet your approval?

He has proposed building a "Nickelodeon-type studio" to broadcast kids' shows and indoor play structures at every Mars Hill property to attract kids, "especially the boys, the kinesthetic learners, so they can get a little activity." (Imagine being the gay kid—or the kid everyone thinks is gay—at that playground.)

There would be special child worship time conducted by adults and handpicked child apprentices. That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children's version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework to ensure, Driscoll says, "an integration between church and home." Driscoll has also said he wants to commission a new illustrated children's Bible. "Kinda cool, dark, a lot of the bloody Old Testament stories so the boys'll like it, too," he said on one video, winking. "We're gonna do it Mars Hill–style."

[Black Aliss]

Tame? That is offensive. And how do you garden your wife if she doesn't meet your approval?

It is, perhaps, a sign of my extreme immaturity that this made me think of part of an Ethel Waters song, My Handy Man:

He's God's gift!

Sometimes he's up long before dawn,

Busy trimming the rough edges off my lawn;

Oooh, you can't get away from it! He's such a handy man!

Never has a single thing to say,

While he's working hard;

I wish that you could see the way

He handles my front yard!

[Knight of Ni]

When I was in middle school the youth pastor at the church I attended left and moved to start his own church. The name of the new church was Mars Hill church and IIRC it was/is located somewhere in the mid West. Missouri I think. Does Mars Hill allow churches to open using their name? It makes me wonder if his church is affiliated with Mars Hill in Seattle. He didn't seem crazy to me when he was my youth minister but it's possible that he could have changed or I just didn't notice the crazy.

[Rachel333]

When I was in middle school the youth pastor at the church I attended left and moved to start his own church. The name of the new church was Mars Hill church and IIRC it was/is located somewhere in the mid West. Missouri I think. Does Mars Hill allow churches to open using their name? It makes me wonder if his church is affiliated with Mars Hill in Seattle. He didn't seem crazy to me when he was my youth minister but it's possible that he could have changed or I just didn't notice the crazy.

I imagine it was probably a coincidence. Rob Bell, who seems very much not fundie, had a church in Michigan called Mars Hill as well. I'm not sure where the name comes from; it seems odd to have several unrelated churches with that name.

[jjj]

I think "Mars Hill" is where the apostle paul is supposed to have debated with the greeks.

[debrand]

I think "Mars Hill" is where the apostle paul is supposed to have debated with the greeks.

I wondered if that was where the name originated but I was too darn lazy to look it up.

[Katiedarling]

When I was in middle school the youth pastor at the church I attended left and moved to start his own church. The name of the new church was Mars Hill church and IIRC it was/is located somewhere in the mid West. Missouri I think. Does Mars Hill allow churches to open using their name? It makes me wonder if his church is affiliated with Mars Hill in Seattle. He didn't seem crazy to me when he was my youth minister but it's possible that he could have changed or I just didn't notice the crazy.

A lot of churches are named Mars Hill as its a Bible related place. That said Mars Hill Seattle did send a crazy heavy handed attorney drafted letter to a church using the same name in California. That totally confused me at first because it's not like Mars Hill Seattle is the first church to use the name, but then I remembered that Mark Driscoll thinks he's literally God's gift and it made sense. What a first class d-bag he is. I really want to start a website calling him to repentance and threatening him with discipline for being a fat, gluttonous, d-bag. Did I mention I can't stand the guy?

[over-thinker]

I am glad to have found this thread (- even though it's from earlier this year) :)

I live in two communities in WA. Over the last year I started noticing Mars Hill churches everywhere. I didn't really give it much thought, but after working for someone that wants to have a Mars Hill started in the conservative area I live in (central, WA) I became very curious. I noticed the interactions with his wife, the meetings we had, etc. Very cult like if you ask me. One of our employees posted this article : joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jonna-mhc-story-29.pdf

I thought it was really interesting and confirmed that Driscoll is such an asshole.

[debrand]

I am glad to have found this thread (- even though it's from earlier this year) :)

I live in two communities in WA. Over the last year I started noticing Mars Hill churches everywhere. I didn't really give it much thought, but after working for someone that wants to have a Mars Hill started in the conservative area I live in (central, WA) I became very curious. I noticed the interactions with his wife, the meetings we had, etc. Very cult like if you ask me. One of our employees posted this article : joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/jonna-mhc-story-29.pdf

I thought it was really interesting and confirmed that Driscoll is such an asshole.

Wow, overthinker. I found this quote on your link and thought it was odd

The next morning I heard from the elder’s wife, the one Karen and I had so enjoyed - that she

had shared our conversation with her husband and he felt that it showed “disloyalty†on Karen’s

part, was gossip, and that it needed to be brought to Mark, which he did. Karen was fired. The

gist of what she shared that was branded “disloyal†was a heart of thankfulness that my husband,

Paul, was being made an elder because Mark needed strong men around him who could handle

and stand up to push-back. When I found out what this elder and his wife had done, I called

Mark immediately in tears and asked him to forgive me for my part in that conversation.

Looking back, I’m not sure that Karen or I really did anything wrong, but I was sure afraid

Am I reading this correctly? Karen said positive things about Mark's choice for an elder and was branded as disloyal? And her husband turned her in? That is crazy and very controlling. That sounds a lot like a cult.

Shortly after this meeting, in my praying for the church that God’s will would be done in the

upcoming changes, I sent a letter to the elders’ wives inviting them to join me in prayer, along

with Scriptures I had been meditating on. Mark, who reads Grace’s emails, was livid about it and

verbally lambasted the elders at their next meeting for not keeping their wives in line.

5

Mark was upset by an invitation to prayer? Why he would be so upset is still a mystery.

But I’ve often wondered if it was perhaps because his plans were already made.

Again, wow. Why do these women remain in that church? I don't understand how a man can keep a woman in line who doesn't want to be in line. Could a woman sue Mars Hill if her husband became abusive? It does seem like Mark is encouraging abusive behavior.

After the trial we were “restored as members†and our access to the church’s members-only

website was re-activated

Is this a common practice? Why do they need a members only website? I wonder what they could possibly have on that site that they are reluctant for nonmembers to view?

What amazes me about the story-and similar ones that I've read- are how the victims beg to be accepted back into the church that misused them.

During this whole season since the firing and the months that followed, I was emotionally and

spiritually devastated. I was often tormented by fear. I had nightmares and imaginations of

someone trying to physically harm Paul, me, and the children. If Mark had had ecclesiastical

power to burn Paul at the stake I believe he would have.

and

At several points along the way we were urged by family and friends to seriously consider suing

Mark, the elders, and the church because not only had they violated Scripture, their own bylaws,

and the church membership covenant, but under civil law we believed they were guilty of

multiple violations as well, including intentional infliction of emotional distress, defamation,

libel, slander, tortuous interference with business relationships, violations of employment

standards, and more. We prayed and wrestled with the idea for months, finally concluding

that it was better to be wronged and entrust it to God’s judgment.

I guess that I don't understand this type of thinking. The writer is afraid that Mark would kill her husband if he had the power to do so. It sounds as if she had PTSD and yet, she won't do anything legal to prevent others from having the same thing happen to them.

It is important that she tell her story and I am greatful that she did.

[icecreamycakeycake]

Gross. I think there's one in Bellevue near the mall. I've heard mall employees discuss it, but never knew it was cultish.

[BravaAmica]

Interesting article in The Stranger (Seattle alternative paper) about how Mark Driscoll seems to have crossed the line from pastor to cult leader.

The article goes on to describe what happens when a member fails to submit wholeheartedly to this "authority":

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/chur ... d=12172001

Oh goody. And this asshole just bought a huge building and parking garage in my town. But that's not what pisses me off. What pisses me off is that the huge building and parking garage is next door to a small church that's been in my town for over 100 years. The parking garage used to let the congregants park there for free. Now it's just for Mars Hill folks. Due to Mars HIll literally taking over the block, the small church's congregants have nowhere to park. When approached about this issue to see what could be worked out, Mars Hill told them that God led them to my town and to those buildings, they're only following the will of God and maybe they should take a hint and move themselves.

[Creaky Mom]

Wow, overthinker. I found this quote on your link and thought it was odd

Am I reading this correctly? Karen said positive things about Mark's choice for an elder and was branded as disloyal? And her husband turned her in? That is crazy and very controlling. That sounds a lot like a cult.

Again, wow. Why do these women remain in that church? I don't understand how a man can keep a woman in line who doesn't want to be in line. Could a woman sue Mars Hill if her husband became abusive? It does seem like Mark is encouraging abusive behavior.

Is this a common practice? Why do they need a members only website? I wonder what they could possibly have on that site that they are reluctant for nonmembers to view?

What amazes me about the story-and similar ones that I've read- are how the victims beg to be accepted back into the church that misused them.

and

I guess that I don't understand this type of thinking. The writer is afraid that Mark would kill her husband if he had the power to do so. It sounds as if she had PTSD and yet, she won't do anything legal to prevent others from having the same thing happen to them.

It is important that she tell her story and I am greatful that she did.

By the time you have come this far, any action on your part only exacerbates and escalates the cultist's bad behaviour.

Writing about her experience is the least damaging to herself and family and still accomplishes warning others, albeit less overt. Unless you've been there, it is hard to comprehend. You really can't believe it is happening and on account of what you've been taught about how christians reconcile blah, blah, blah, you really believe the Preacher/cultist will at least follow his own teaching. Nope. The grey suits are there for themselves.

Often, you can't see the truth of what is happening, at the moment. You are so stunned by what is happening. It becomes clearer exactly what was going on once you've been out some time and distance from the experience.

[CrazySister]

Wow, this stuff is eerily reminiscent of a church I went to about 10 or 12 years ago! I literally thought I was going crazy at some point because the rules were ever-changing and yet if I brought up any concerns I was told it WAS all in my head. One day version 1 of whatever product (Bible, kid's stroller, parenting program, etc.) was the "best" (meaning you're "in sin" if that's not what you're using), but the next week it was product 2 and how could you not know that and no we NEVER said product 1 was acceptable! :angry-screaming: :angry-banghead:

[Closed Womb]

Sigh. I wish this was a surprise. But, after reading the reviews about the sex book he co-authored with his wife (which, I admit I haven't read), I am not shocked. She needs to be available to please his needs, the congregation needs to be available to stroke his, ah, ego.

[Austin]

The interesting thing to me is that the Petrys really never reacted or pushed back against Driscoll until it affected them. I've read everything I can find on them and that's what is disappointing to me. They colluded with MD in his systematic spiritual abuse of people until he turned on them.

[Knight of Ni]

Recently one of my friends posted on her status saying that her and her fiance were listening to Mark Driscoll's "True Marriage" talks. I wonder if she knows about the things that he's done and is involved in. Wonder if she would see it as a negative. Does anyone know what content is in these "True Marriage" talks. My guess is all about wifely submission

[over-thinker]

Sigh. I wish this was a surprise. But, after reading the reviews about the sex book he co-authored with his wife (which, I admit I haven't read), I am not shocked. She needs to be available to please his needs, the congregation needs to be available to stroke his, ah, ego.

The boss I referenced up above bought that book for the management team. I thought it was weird and inappropriate. Of course, we did have some good laughs. Driscoll is a major dirtbag.

After reading the comment sections on various articles on my local newspaper, I think Yakima will welcome Mars Hill. :roll:

Their buildings in Seattle are in weird areas. I don't know if that is on purpose or if they just got a screamin' deal on the lease.

They are freaky-deaky.

[over-thinker]

Recently one of my friends posted on her status saying that her and her fiance were listening to Mark Driscoll's "True Marriage" talks. I wonder if she knows about the things that he's done and is involved in. Wonder if she would see it as a negative. Does anyone know what content is in these "True Marriage" talks. My guess is all about wifely submission

That is exactly what they are about. The man is in charge and don't you forget it!

[rosamundi]

Is anyone else thinking about the Hitler Youth and the League of German Maidens at this point, or is it just me?

[rezski44]

Or Scientoloy?

[Coconut Flan]

Definitely scientology. It's all very, very cult-like.

An aside, I read today that Tom Cruise was drifting from the fold a little after reflecting that his devotion to scientology had created rifts in three marriages and with at least one girlfriend. Slow learner?

[Burris]

It's interesting how a lot of these pastors will got after those who question their leadership, even to the point of disfellowship, and yet rarely do I hear of such zeal among the leadership to weed churches of predators such as pedophiles and rapists. Indeed those men seem to get special protection.

[starfish]

It surprises me that Driscoll's church flourishes in the Seattle area. You would think the folks there would resist his brand of fundie nuttiness. They always seem rather sensible to me.