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Deleted07

Ok so are the Duggars just full of crap when it comes to the first miscarried baby that they presumably named Caleb, or what?

 

Because this article was posted on their TLC blog and facebook page, and it doesn't actually say they even named the fetus, just that they were going to name another child Caleb if they had one, but then skips to naming John David and Jana...

 

http://parentables.howstuffworks.com/fa ... pgn=fbtlc1

 

Also noticed (old news I know) on the Today show interview they were apart of Michelle slipped with the whole, I have 10 boys and 10 girls thing too...

 

Curiouser and Curiouser... :think:

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meow139

many think that Caleb was just made up, as an excuse for becoming fundie.

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bananacat

I'm in the camp that there actually was a miscarriage, but I don't think that they actually named it. It's suspicious that we never heard about the name until they named the second miscarriage. I think Michelle did have a normal early miscarriage, but because of a bunch of liars who told her it was her own fault, I think she just tried to make they whole thing go away as fast as possible. I don't see her naming something that made her feel that much guilt and shame.

I suppose I could be swayed that there was no miscarriage at all, but I think they would have pushed the story harder from the beginning if that were the case. Can someone who knows about this stuff look at the birth dates of Josh and the twins and figure out if it was possible or likely to fit a pregnancy and miscarriage in between? I've never been pregnant so I don't know about that stuff like how long it takes to ovulate again after birth or when most miscarriages happen.

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QueenNocturne
I'm in the camp that there actually was a miscarriage, but I don't think that they actually named it. It's suspicious that we never heard about the name until they named the second miscarriage. I think Michelle did have a normal early miscarriage, but because of a bunch of liars who told her it was her own fault, I think she just tried to make they whole thing go away as fast as possible. I don't see her naming something that made her feel that much guilt and shame.

I suppose I could be swayed that there was no miscarriage at all, but I think they would have pushed the story harder from the beginning if that were the case. Can someone who knows about this stuff look at the birth dates of Josh and the twins and figure out if it was possible or likely to fit a pregnancy and miscarriage in between? I've never been pregnant so I don't know about that stuff like how long it takes to ovulate again after birth or when most miscarriages happen.

I'm not an expert about pregnancy and miscarriage and such, but Josh and the twins are 22 months apart. As quickly as Michelle seems to get pregnant after each birth, it seems possible that she could have gotten pregnant fairly soon after Josh, miscarried, and then got pregnant against fairly soon afterwards.

However, I defer to those with more expertise on this matter.

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LadyBlue

13 months between Josh's birth & the twins' pregnancy, very possible to have a miscarriage between them.

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LastChance
I'm in the camp that there actually was a miscarriage, but I don't think that they actually named it. It's suspicious that we never heard about the name until they named the second miscarriage. I think Michelle did have a normal early miscarriage, but because of a bunch of liars who told her it was her own fault, I think she just tried to make they whole thing go away as fast as possible. I don't see her naming something that made her feel that much guilt and shame.

I suppose I could be swayed that there was no miscarriage at all, but I think they would have pushed the story harder from the beginning if that were the case. Can someone who knows about this stuff look at the birth dates of Josh and the twins and figure out if it was possible or likely to fit a pregnancy and miscarriage in between? I've never been pregnant so I don't know about that stuff like how long it takes to ovulate again after birth or when most miscarriages happen.

I agree that they'd likely have pushed it harder if it was made up, so I so think she miscarried. It depends on the woman, but it is absolutely possible that she got pregnant and miscarried between Josh and the twins. Most doctors will tell you to wait 2-3 cycles after a miscarriage to try, but I know from my own personal experience that you can get pregnant directly following a miscarriage (my son was conceived about 3 weeks after I miscarried at approx. 7 weeks along, so very early) since she's obviously capable of getting pregnant 6-9 months after having a baby, it seems totally reasonable to me that she got pregnant somewhere in Josh's first year of life, miscarried and immediately got pregnant again.

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wildcatgrrl

According to IMDb, Josh was born on 3/3/1988. Jana and John David were born on 1/12/1990. Nowadays, they do the "abstain for 40 days following the birth of a boy" thing, but I don't think they did back then. A lot of couples wait til the 6 week mark and the woman's checkup, though, so that works in about the same time frame. That puts us to 4/14/1988. A due date of 1/12/1990 would correspond with a date of 4/7/1989 for the first day of the mother's last period.

So that leaves nearly a year for the conception and miscarriage of J'Caleb -- plenty of time, especially given that they didn't know the gender due to it being early on in the pregnancy. Women vary in how quickly they can conceive after a pregnancy or miscarriage, but Michelle doesn't seem to have many issues conceiving, so it is technically possible. Whether they made J'Caleb up or not, I don't know. I do find it odd they don't seem to give a rip about him/her unless they're called out on it, such as the re-recording of the letter to Jubilee.

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CustardTart
I do find it odd they don't seem to give a rip about him/her unless they're called out on it, such as the re-recording of the letter to Jubilee.

I don't find it odd.

Since the first miscarriage was so early, I'm thinking they didn't name the baby. I don't know anyone who's actually "named" an early miscarriage baby, especially when you don't know the sex.

With Jubilee, I totally understand giving her a name. And since they named Jubilee, I'm guessing it brought back memories of the first loss, and that they never named that one, so they did. I don't see it as not giving a rip about the first. I'd bet it was traumatic for Michelle.

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Sola
13 months between Josh's birth & the twins' pregnancy, very possible to have a miscarriage between them.

Only 13 months? I was always under the impression it was longer.

I'm really not convinced on the whole Caleb thing. How did she even know it was a boy? Looking at the timing, how J'Chelle states that the way she usually suspects she is pregnant is when her milk changes, I think it was an early miscarriage. So how would she know? It could easily have been a girl.

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Aeryn406

I think there was an early miscarriage and had a more typical level of grief over the event, but then went to that doctor that they mention sometimes and he informed them that they did indeed ... "Kill their child!". They may have only needed that little push to "cement their faith" & went deeper and deeper after that.

As for the naming thing - nah, I see that as following the mommy blogger & m o m y s message board trend of keeping yourself in the numbers game by listing angel-babies. I've seen this a lot in sig lines: g g b ^g^ ^b^ b and they count that as 6 children.

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Eoywin

I do know a couple of people who have named their early miscarriages - which I've always found to be a little weird.

When I had mine, I didn't think about naming the clump of cells that didn't grow. I actually didn't know if I should be sad or not - it was a weird time for me.

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Deleted06

Since the first miscarriage was so early, I'm thinking they didn't name the baby. I don't know anyone who's actually "named" an early miscarriage baby, especially when you don't know the sex.With Jubilee, I totally understand giving her a name. And since they named Jubilee, I'm guessing it brought back memories of the first loss, and that they never named that one, so they did. I don't see it as not giving a rip about the first. I'd bet it was traumatic for Michelle.

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formergothardite

I thought that Caleb was named before the Jubilee pregnancy?

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mama_bear

My first pregnancy miscarried at 7 weeks. No idea of the sex of the baby but I had a name that I already knew I would use if I had a boy and then was not comfortable using that name for subsequent pregnancies because I had been thinking of that pregnancy as "Timothy". I don't think it's that unusual to be thinking of a name or have some idea-especially if you are very focused on getting pregnant.

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ElphabaGalinda

I think they only named Caleb after they lost Jubilee. And then they realized that since they're claiming life starts at conception, and that their loss of Jubilee was the same as losing one of their already born children, they had better start counting that loss as one of their children or else they would sound like bigger hypocrites than they already are. So while I think Caleb really happened, I really don't think they started counting it in the same way until they realized they had to to keep up their image.

Not that naming/grieving for a miscarriage is wrong, Michelle just only started doing it when it supported her public image. I don't believe for a second that J'Caleb was anything more than a reason for them to go uber fundie.

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treemom
I think they only named Caleb after they lost Jubilee. And then they realized that since they're claiming life starts at conception, and that their loss of Jubilee was the same as losing one of their already born children, they had better start counting that loss as one of their children or else they would sound like bigger hypocrites than they already are. So while I think Caleb really happened, I really don't think they started counting it in the same way until they realized they had to to keep up their image.

Not that naming/grieving for a miscarriage is wrong, Michelle just only started doing it when it supported her public image. I don't believe for a second that J'Caleb was anything more than a reason for them to go uber fundie.

I wish they had just talked honestly about it and said while they believe life begins at the moment of conception as a pregnancy progresses you develop feelings of attachment. Women who have had early miscarriages and then 2nd trimester getting close to still birth miscarriages usually do feel different about them.

Just from a physical standpoint there are huge differences.

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ElphabaGalinda

I wish they had just talked honestly about it and said while they believe life begins at the moment of conception as a pregnancy progresses you develop feelings of attachment. Women who have had early miscarriages and then 2nd trimester getting close to still birth miscarriages usually do feel different about them.

Just from a physical standpoint there are huge differences.

If they said it like that they'd be moving closer into the territory of reasonable people, which is why I think they won't. Personally, I wish they had kept all that private, like they said they wanted to. Broadcasting that all over the place = doing it all for show, to me. I think that if they had really felt that Caleb should be named, they would have mentioned that all the other times they mentioned that miscarriage, instead of after Jubilee. The timing of when they seemingly pulled a name out of nowhere made it seem like all the care abot is their image.

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JenniferJuniper

I think the miscarriage probably did happen - they are hardly unusually events and Michelle has only had two known ones out of a ton of pregnancies - but I agree that it didn't have a name until Jubilee got hers.

Why choose a "C" name instead of a "J" name?

Because they've previously said they didn't set out to give their kids J names, it happened after they gave the first set of twins names that started with the same letter, like people sometimes do with twins. They then realized they had three J kids, and kept up the tradition when Jill came along.

If Caleb had a J name before the twins were around, it would look even more suspicious in light of their prior stories.

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PennySycamore

Only 13 months? I was always under the impression it was longer.

I'm really not convinced on the whole Caleb thing. How did she even know it was a boy? Looking at the timing, how J'Chelle states that the way she usually suspects she is pregnant is when her milk changes, I think it was an early miscarriage. So how would she know? It could easily have been a girl.

I call bullshit on J'chelle knowing she's pg when the milk changes as that doesn't typically occur until the milk changes to colostrum in the second trimester. She doesn't nurse that long.

I do think that J'chelle had an early miscarriage, but the embryo/fetus was not named until J'chelle miscarried Jubilee.

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bananacat

I call bullshit on J'chelle knowing she's pg when the milk changes as that doesn't typically occur until the milk changes to colostrum in the second trimester. She doesn't nurse that long.

I do think that J'chelle had an early miscarriage, but the embryo/fetus was not named until J'chelle miscarried Jubilee.

Michelle does get pregnant pretty fast sometimes. Gothard recommends weaning at 6 months to get pregnant faster. I think that Michelle was just doing damage control when she made that claim about her milk changing so she could make it seem like she was getting pregnant without even trying instead of intentionally weaning early. I know plenty of women ovulate even while breastfeeding, and Michell is hyper-fertile, but I also suspect that she does semi-weaning pretty early so she can preggo faster. What she probably does is only partially wean the kids so she gets her cycles back, but still lets them feed a few times a day, which is what many breastfeeders do but at a later age (or the baby just naturally wants it less often). So it's possible that she gets pregnant and the current baby feeds just before bedtime or something and notices the change, but she tries to spin it that she's still exclusively breastfeeding during those times.

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kb2

Could it be that so much time has passed, the miscarriage of Caleb just isn't in the forefront of their minds anymore? I know that time doesn't take away all the pain of grief, but it can lessen it.

A lot of people report feeling differently about different miscarriages, one being more hurtful than the other. The problem with the Duggars is that they are pushing their "every fetus is equal to a grown human being" so hard, that admitting that some fetuses feel more important than others is impossible. Or admitting that a pregnancy that was lost before they had eighteen more living children can be eclipsed by time and other life events like a more recent miscarriage. They can't say Caleb is less important to them, but they seem to have a hard time keeping up appearances.

I think it could be nice to have a famous person talk openly about miscarriage, or even to show someone who had a late miscarriage having a memorial ceremony, to decrease the stigma and the social expectations people have to keep these things private. But I hate that it's the Duggars, because they aren't in it to decrease stigma, just to promote their politics.

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pixydust

I'm torn about "Caleb".....I would think that if they just named him, it would be something like "Jehosaphat" to go with the "J" thing. Wasn't Caleb in the Bible Joshua's best friend or something? I think that they had planned on naming the baby Caleb (if it had been a boy), maybe thinking about going with all Bible names for their kids, then went the "J" way instead, so when people asked they used the name that they had chosen for it.

Some people choose names very early on, I had a girl name chosen while still trying to get pregnant with my youngest.

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Elle

I don't buy it for a second that the first baby was names at the time he/she was lost. Conflicting statements from "we were going to name another child Caleb," then suddenly, under scrutiny about why the fanfare for Jubilee, they claim they named the first one too. Yet no information, like how far along. I'd say it is personal, but with the Duggars, there's no such thing as TMI. We've even heard about period charts and everyone in the family knowing her cycles. I doubt she was far enough along to have known the sex of the baby.

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Dinaberries
I think they only named Caleb after they lost Jubilee. And then they realized that since they're claiming life starts at conception, and that their loss of Jubilee was the same as losing one of their already born children, they had better start counting that loss as one of their children or else they would sound like bigger hypocrites than they already are. So while I think Caleb really happened, I really don't think they started counting it in the same way until they realized they had to to keep up their image.

Not that naming/grieving for a miscarriage is wrong, Michelle just only started doing it when it supported her public image. I don't believe for a second that J'Caleb was anything more than a reason for them to go uber fundie.

This is exactly what I think. And I think that it really showcases their hypocrisy. It would be great if they could be honest and admit that while they were greatly saddened by the loss of "Caleb" (which I think is totally valid and understandable); that the loss of a child that you know about, have planned for, who you have seen in an ultrasound, etc., is much more painful and real.

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wildcatgrrl
I think they only named Caleb after they lost Jubilee. And then they realized that since they're claiming life starts at conception, and that their loss of Jubilee was the same as losing one of their already born children, they had better start counting that loss as one of their children or else they would sound like bigger hypocrites than they already are. So while I think Caleb really happened, I really don't think they started counting it in the same way until they realized they had to to keep up their image.

Not that naming/grieving for a miscarriage is wrong, Michelle just only started doing it when it supported her public image. I don't believe for a second that J'Caleb was anything more than a reason for them to go uber fundie.

This.

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