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Measles outbreaks and fundamentalists


mirele

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Not only can I not get vaccines anymore, but I have issues with autoimmunity. Severe issues. I've been knocked out for weeks over common mild illnesses, and hospitalized. I've been hospitalized over extreme and severe reactions to the last times I was given any vaccines. Times, plural, hospitalized after each of a few tries. So I can not get vaccines AND I am autoimmune.

So, we've said all along that it's okay to not get vaccines if you have medical issues. And now you come up with this? Why argue, argue argue then suddenly say something that we would agree with. If this is true, why didn't you say it at first. And if this is the case for you- why is it the case for everybody?

I have lots of health issues myself- horrible allergies, sinus issues, migraines, bad teeth, cystic ovaries.... But I'm glad that I don't have any issues with shots. But just because I can't eat certain things because of allergies or migraine triggers doesn't mean that everybody shouldn't. (though I also think that the people who bring dogs everywhere with them are really rude and should understand that it's not fair to those with allergies.)

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I don't see how keeping the non-vaccinated kids out of school will help protect vaccinated kids. Some vaccinated kids don't even show immunity because the vaccine doesn't take. Even going on the herd immunity. They are everywhere at the mall, in McDonalds etc. Same with under\non vaccinated adults - do you know if every adult your child comes in contact with at school is vaccinated. Bus drivers, cafeteria workers, support safe.Many of them I bet beyond the flu shot probably haven't been vaccinated for anything other than Tetanus since their high school shots.

Besides doesn't that go against the rights to an education at public school?

Those who don't know it's incredibly hard to get a medical waiver most of the time. Even if the vaccine is contraindicated by the CDC the ONLY way I could get a medical waiver would be for my DD to take the vaccine and if she does have a horrible reaction find a doctor willing to say she had multiple seizures or stroke [reasons it's contraindicated among other complications like death] directly related to the vaccine. Her team of doctors told me straight out it's next to impossible to find a doctor willing to sign a medical waiver because of the implications like legal thanks to vaccine injury suits, their being allowed to practice at certain hospitals, their insurance rates. They all come back to it's always safer to vaccinate.

Some kids - many I bet who's parents have a philosophical waiver actually do have real reasons - their children's life - to avoid vaccination. Many kids are already limited on what they can do or not do thanks to their health let alone being told they can't go to school.

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As for the whole "We can't sue the vaccine producers" thing, gotta love how it only goes one way. :roll: I hear from a lot of non-vaxxers that, if it's so safe, why aren't doctors willing to sign legal documents making them responsible for any side effects. (A strawman, as no one has ever claimed vaccines are 100% safe, only that the risk is much, much smaller than the disease). So, I say if you don't vaccinate for anything besides a doctor-authorized medical exemption, you should be willing to sign a legal document making you responsible for any damage done to those who you expose to the disease. After all, hygiene measurements like hand washing and staying home should ensure you don't infect anyone, right? And even if you do, the risks of the disease have been so exaggerated that it's no big deal if someone else does get sick, right?

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It wasn't just refuted; it was turned on its head. In fact, autism is more common in people who aren't vaccinated. The difference is slight but statistically significant.

Andrew Wakefield, formerly Doctor, was struck off the medical register in the UK for basically faking the evidence he claimed showed that the Measles, Mumps and Rubella (MMR) vaccine was causing autism. The Lancet (the British equivalent of the New England Journal of Medicine) issued a retraction of the paper that originally started the whole autism = vaccine scare. Ironically, Wakefield did his "research" because he was looking to push forward a different vaccine, not because he was anti-vaccine.

Yet Wakefield is held up as a "hero" by uninformed anti-vaxxers. *rolls eyes*

ETA: I am a diabetic and I get every f*cking vaccine suggested by my doctor, because I'm more susceptible to illness. So I got a booster DPT shot last year, for example. This measles outbreak has me nervous...I had measles shots as a toddler in the early 1960s, and again when I was in law school in the late 1980s due to an epidemic, but I'm thinking that I really don't want to have measles, so I will ask my doc the next time I'm in if it would be a good idea.

I am also of the grim opinion that it's going to take a nasty epidemic, with lots of kids dying from diseases that you can be vaccinated against, before these crunchy mommies get it through their heads that the vaccinations are to protect you against a lot of very awful illnesses. When the rubella shot became available around 1970, everyone in our neighborhood lined up at the high school to get it. That's because even if we kids didn't know someone who'd been pregnant and had rubella during the pregnancy, our parents and grandparents did, and the results were awful. Nobody wanted that.

I swear, people need to read about past epidemics and see that they were terrible. These are not like having the common cold!!!

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I don't see how keeping the non-vaccinated kids out of school will help protect vaccinated kids. Some vaccinated kids don't even show immunity because the vaccine doesn't take. Even going on the herd immunity. They are everywhere at the mall, in McDonalds etc. Same with under\non vaccinated adults - do you know if every adult your child comes in contact with at school is vaccinated. Bus drivers, cafeteria workers, support safe.Many of them I bet beyond the flu shot probably haven't been vaccinated for anything other than Tetanus since their high school shots.

Besides doesn't that go against the rights to an education at public school?

Those who don't know it's incredibly hard to get a medical waiver most of the time. Even if the vaccine is contraindicated by the CDC the ONLY way I could get a medical waiver would be for my DD to take the vaccine and if she does have a horrible reaction find a doctor willing to say she had multiple seizures or stroke [reasons it's contraindicated among other complications like death] directly related to the vaccine. Her team of doctors told me straight out it's next to impossible to find a doctor willing to sign a medical waiver because of the implications like legal thanks to vaccine injury suits, their being allowed to practice at certain hospitals, their insurance rates. They all come back to it's always safer to vaccinate.

Some kids - many I bet who's parents have a philosophical waiver actually do have real reasons - their children's life - to avoid vaccination. Many kids are already limited on what they can do or not do thanks to their health let alone being told they can't go to school.

You have the right to not vaccinate, you don't have the right to sit your unvaccinated child next to my vaccinated asthmatic child during a whooping cough outbreak. Your child's right to attend public school does not mean you have the right to expose my daughter to a potentially life threatening disease.

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I don't see how keeping the non-vaccinated kids out of school will help protect vaccinated kids. Some vaccinated kids don't even show immunity because the vaccine doesn't take. Even going on the herd immunity. They are everywhere at the mall, in McDonalds etc. Same with under\non vaccinated adults - do you know if every adult your child comes in contact with at school is vaccinated. Bus drivers, cafeteria workers, support safe.Many of them I bet beyond the flu shot probably haven't been vaccinated for anything other than Tetanus since their high school shots.

Besides doesn't that go against the rights to an education at public school?

I think you are missing the point. This is not about individual children mingling with non-vaccinated children or adults. It involves a much bigger picture.

Mandatory vaccination of public school children is the primary method we've used to gain control over so many of these dangerous diseases. If large enough groups of people opt their children out, we run the risk of some of these illnesses returning in a big way. And those that will suffer the most will likely be babies, older people, and the already compromised.

If parents want to avail themselves of a free public education, they should be required to play by the rules and get their children vaccinated. If not, they can pay for their education or home school them. It is for the public good that children be fully vaccinated, but if you want to opt out, you should also be required to opt out of the public good that public schooling provides.

Opting out for verified medical reasons should always be allowed of course, but I say bullshit to the religious ones. If your religion forbids vaccination, then take your child to a school run by your religious institution.

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I think you are missing the point. This is not about individual children mingling with non-vaccinated children or adults. It involves a much bigger picture.

Mandatory vaccination of public school children is the primary method we've used to gain control over so many of these dangerous diseases. If large enough groups of people opt their children out, we run the risk of some of these illnesses returning in a big way. And those that will suffer the most will likely be babies, older people, and the already compromised.

If parents want to avail themselves of a free public education, they should be required to play by the rules and get their children vaccinated. If not, they can pay for their education or home school them. It is for the public good that children be fully vaccinated, but if you want to opt out, you should also be required to opt out of the public good that public schooling provides.

Opting out for verified medical reasons should always be allowed of course, but I say bullshit to the religious ones. If your religion forbids vaccination, then take your child to a school run by your religious institution.

Yes, it is sort of a reverse quarantine. The ones most likely to get the illness are kept out of the public. And I think if I had a child who was unvaccinated for medical reasons I would WANT to keep my child home during an outbreak.

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A lot of jobs working with the general public require full immunization. My husband had to catch up on vaccine boosters before he could do clinical training in a hospital. I think public school employees probably have similar rules.

No unvaccinated children are allowed at my daughter's Head Start. So the government does feel comfortable laying down the law sometimes.

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If parents want to avail themselves of a free public education, they should be required to play by the rules and get their children vaccinated. If not, they can pay for their education or home school them. It is for the public good that children be fully vaccinated, but if you want to opt out, you should also be required to opt out of the public good that public schooling provides.

Opting out for verified medical reasons should always be allowed of course, but I say bullshit to the religious ones. If your religion forbids vaccination, then take your child to a school run by your religious institution.

Something else to remember too is that these sorts of mandatory "you must do X or your kid doesn't get to attend public school" things are effective at coercing the large swaths of people who might think "well, should I or not?" but will do what's required to take the path of least hassle - namely, getting their kids into school. Lots of people without any serious objections but who just put OFF things like the vaccinations, the required physicals, etc, will do it once an actual requirement is made. As such, it makes a good "gate."

Absolutely the schools (or local public health office, really) need to make fulfilling the requirements easy, though, and also make it possible to easily get the medical exemptions when needed.

As for religious exemptions I am no doubt colored by my own background but I find that if religion is given special weight over other sorts of voluntary opinions or choices, we end up debating what is and isn't a "valid" religion. People need to OWN their religious beliefs. YOU are choosing to follow a rule. Plenty of religious requests don't really affect anyone else and so can be easily accommodated (though in fact I'd say that non-religious similarly sincere requests should ALSO be accommodated) but when it comes to public health, particularly if there's a critical mass of the kids wanting the exemption, it can be a problem.

One religious non-vaxing kid in the herd probably DOESN'T really affect much. But when 20% of the class is taking the religious exemption, that's something else. I suppose there could be some sort of "up to X people can claim it, then the door is closed" just like some companies force employees to coordinate their vacation time or whatever, but it could get hard to implement.

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No unvaccinated children are allowed at my daughter's Head Start. So the government does feel comfortable laying down the law sometimes.

Call me cynical on humanity but I suspect part of the reason there's not more outcry about requirements for Head Start kids is that a lot of the more vocal protesters (both the religious exemption people AND the "crunchy" types) don't ever think their precious kids will go to Head Start, that's for OTHER (read: Other) kids and since they're getting some benefit, we can make them jump through hoops.

Public schools though, rich people send their kids there too.

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Call me cynical on humanity but I suspect part of the reason there's not more outcry about requirements for Head Start kids is that a lot of the more vocal protesters (both the religious exemption people AND the "crunchy" types) don't ever think their precious kids will go to Head Start, that's for OTHER (read: Other) kids and since they're getting some benefit, we can make them jump through hoops.

Public schools though, rich people send their kids there too.

lol I totally agree with you. We also had to be up-to-date on medical and dental checkups, etc and they called me last week to remind me that R is due for a dentist visit in April. I think Head Start is used as a "carrot" to remind parents to get these things taken care of. It actually says in the annual report for our Head Start that one of the goals met was to have the children 100% vaccinated and receiving preventive care. If you disagree? No Head Start for you. If there was any outcry, people would probably see it as poor people looking a gift horse in the mouth. But no one views public education as a 'gift horse'.

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Call me cynical on humanity but I suspect part of the reason there's not more outcry about requirements for Head Start kids is that a lot of the more vocal protesters (both the religious exemption people AND the "crunchy" types) don't ever think their precious kids will go to Head Start, that's for OTHER (read: Other) kids and since they're getting some benefit, we can make them jump through hoops.

Public schools though, rich people send their kids there too.

I wouldn't read that much into it. Different states have different "opt out" rules as well, and mine is particularly strict. My state does not allow opting out for "philosophical reasons" (others do) and each child is required to provide proof he's had a full medical exam in the past 6 months before registering for school and then at least every three years thereafter. My neighbor is a Christian Scientist and he had to provide written proof from his church confirming they were members before his daughter was allowed to register for public kindergarten and opt out of immunizations.

My co-worker's son was sent home his first day of his senior year of high school because he had no proof he'd had a full medical physical since freshman year. He was not allowed to return until he submitted a doctor's report.

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So, we've said all along that it's okay to not get vaccines if you have medical issues. And now you come up with this? Why argue, argue argue then suddenly say something that we would agree with. If this is true, why didn't you say it at first. And if this is the case for you- why is it the case for everybody?

I have lots of health issues myself- horrible allergies, sinus issues, migraines, bad teeth, cystic ovaries.... But I'm glad that I don't have any issues with shots. But just because I can't eat certain things because of allergies or migraine triggers doesn't mean that everybody shouldn't. (though I also think that the people who bring dogs everywhere with them are really rude and should understand that it's not fair to those with allergies.)

Wolfie, I HAVE mentioned it before, I just choose not to get into detail most of the time. My body being fucked up is a very personal thing that angers me severely, and writing out some of what's wrong makes me want to cry. It's not nice to think about how easy it could be for me to die from something someone else could brush off. It's not nice to get a simple scrape that won't heal after a couple months and instead gets worse so that, if I'm lucky, I'll only have a scar without having to go be stuck in the hospital on IV antibiotics. So fucking EXCUSE ME if I don't disclose my entire goddamned medical history to appease you!!

Also people with pets have the right to take them in public. It's not rude to take them out places on the off-chance they'll encounter you. I think it's rude and self-centered of you to think people with pets should keep them cooped up for you.

No one here will sway me. I will NEVER get on board with the government being allowed to force people into putting anything into their bodies. That is a dangerous door that should NEVER be opened. Especially when the government is as prone to corruption and lobbying money as it already is. Part of being free means we all assume some risk due to the actions of others. This society could be a lot safer if more freedoms were removed. Freedom comes with some risk, and there's no way around it.

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Wolfie, I HAVE mentioned it before, I just choose not to get into detail most of the time. My body being fucked up is a very personal thing that angers me severely, and writing out some of what's wrong makes me want to cry. It's not nice to think about how easy it could be for me to die from something someone else could brush off. It's not nice to get a simple scrape that won't heal after a couple months and instead gets worse so that, if I'm lucky, I'll only have a scar without having to go be stuck in the hospital on IV antibiotics. So fucking EXCUSE ME if I don't disclose my entire goddamned medical history to appease you!!

No one here will sway me. I will NEVER get on board with the government being allowed to force people into putting anything into their bodies. That is a dangerous door that should NEVER be opened. Especially when the government is as prone to corruption and lobbying money as it already is. Part of being free means we all assume some risk due to the actions of others. This society could be a lot safer if more freedoms were removed. Freedom comes with some risk, and there's no way around it.

Personally, I don't give a flying fuck about your medical history. It has no relevancy to the overall conversation. You may be someone who indirectly benefits from vaccination, but so what? You don't speak for anyone else. I mean, I could probably find someone Asian who thought the "chink in the armor" joke about Lin was funny, but that doesn't mean it's okay.

As for the slippery slope argument, it works both ways. Going forward with your idea of personal freedom, we shouldn't outlaw drunk driving, because that's the government telling us what NOT to put in our bodies. People can just accept a little more risk or stay home, right?

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Also people with pets have the right to take them in public. It's not rude to take them out places on the off-chance they'll encounter you. I think it's rude and self-centered of you to think people with pets should keep them cooped up for you.

I never asked to keep them cooped up. It's when people bring their dogs to reading club, or knit group, or other places where you are in a small space and close together. They bring them to work in a business that you can't avoid, or they bring them to a concert (yes, I've seen it at outdoor concerts.) Totally different than somebody taking their dog for a walk or to the park. I'm in no way asking for somebody to keep their dog cooped up all the time, I'm only asking for me and people with more severe allergies than mine, to think about the fact that they are forcing their animals on those who they might be making sick. I don't bring my pets with me everyplace.

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Want to mandate anything? Mandate that someone who already is sick stay the hell home.

That would be awesome... if people didn't have to work, support their families, and the fact that most employers do not give a damn.

If you believe you cannot be vaccinated for health reasons, it clearly should be your choice not to be. However, claiming that vaccinations are more dangerous than the illnesses they are preventing is flat-out wrong. And the notion that we'd all be fine if we just stayed home when we started sneezing is as impractical as it would be ineffective.

This.

We no longer have a living memory of that but if our vaccination rates keep going down we will.

And this.

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Personally, I don't give a flying fuck about your medical history. It has no relevancy to the overall conversation. You may be someone who indirectly benefits from vaccination, but so what? You don't speak for anyone else. I mean, I could probably find someone Asian who thought the "chink in the armor" joke about Lin was funny, but that doesn't mean it's okay.

As for the slippery slope argument, it works both ways. Going forward with your idea of personal freedom, we shouldn't outlaw drunk driving, because that's the government telling us what NOT to put in our bodies. People can just accept a little more risk or stay home, right?

Thank you. :clap: And as for what Elle was saying, one of the biggest reasons we actually need a government is to solve tragedy of the commons problems such as this. Sometimes, as in the case of vaccination, a choice that is beneficial on an individual basis becomes disastrous when everyone chooses it. Not vaccinating is clearly preferable if your son or daughter is the only one not being vaccinated. However, someone has to enforce Kant's categorical imperative and that "someone" can only be the government. Period. When enough people acting in their own self-interest can lead to calamity for the group, someone has to make them not do so. Who else do you propose will do that, Elle?

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Well, as someone who is immunosuppressed right now (Yay transplant!), I'm very grateful for all those people who do choose to vaccinate.

Having food poisoning a mere couple of weeks into my immunosuppression (no, you're not meant to get food poisoning from hospital food, but this is the NHS, so hey!) was bad enough. I've got a small school age child who is a disease magnet, and I am very wary of going anywhere crowded/enclosed right now, which means I can't volunteer for the massive local table top sale next week, like I usually do, help at PTA events, and definitely no trips into London on the tube!

Having been there and having experienced the complications Rubella can bring, and now being immunosuppressed, I have nothring but praise for vaccines and all who vaccinate!

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