Jews: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform

[MollySee]

Is one of your rabbis Lisa Grushcow?

No, but she seems AWESOME, and I would totally go to that synagogue. like someone else mentioned: I'm a cultural Jew... with a little bit of prayer thrown in... my friend's synagogue is B'nai Jeshurun.

eta: I don't belong to a synagogue... but I'm thinking about joining one when I move next year...

[MollySee]

I actually started typing this earlier but had to rush off to work, so I didn't have time to post it. 2xx1xy1JD's summaries are pretty good. There are also Renewal (even more liberal than Reform) and Reconstructionist (which I don't know much about, because I've never attended a Reconstructionist shul or met anyone who was Reconstructionist).

As pomology mentioned official position of the Conservative movement with regard to which rulings are followed is that when their rabbinical body releases a teshuvah (a religious ruling), in the event of a difference of opinion, it's is up to the judgement of individual congregations which ruling to follow as community practice. Historically, there has been a gulf in observance between Conservative laity and clergy, with the clergy tending to be Modern Orthodox-esque in terms of their observance level, with laity often leaning more Reform, but that can vary a lot by congregation, and there's been a noticeable trend in the last five or ten years of more Conservative Jews taking on higher levels of observance. The whole independent minyanim/chavurah (smaller, unaffiliated prayer groups that are organized at the grass roots level) movement also seems to have a ton of Conservative Jews involved.

The Reform service itself can be really different from Conservative or Orthodox services in that when the Reform movement began, a number of prayers were either truncated or excised from the prayer book completely. The Reform services I've attended have probably broken down along the 75/25 Hebrew to English ratio, and those that didn't typically had more English, not less. Conservative services I've attended have usually been 90-100 percent Hebrew; usually only the sermon is in English. Orthodox services, as you might expect, are usually all Hebrew, all the time. The Conservative and Orthodox prayer books are very, very similar; some language has been changed in the Conservative prayer book, but probably ninety percent of it is virtually identical. When I daven, I'll use either Siddur Sim Shalom, which is the most-used Conservative prayer book, or the Koren Sacks siddur, which is an Orthodox (I would say Modern Orthodox, but I think there probably are people further to the right who will use it) prayer book. The two are virtually identical, except the Conservative siddur changes some prayers, the most notable being the prayer, "Thank you for not making me a woman" (replacing it with "Thank you for making me in your image" for everyone, as opposed to just women) and "Thank you for not making me a non-Jew" (replaced by "Thank you for making me a Jew"). I just replace the Orthodox versions with the Conservative ones when I use the Koren Sacks. I actually used Artscroll for a while, mostly because I wanted transliteration at the time, but it was so far to the right that I just couldn't keep using it.

I think particularly between the Reform and Conservative and Conservative and Orthodox movements, there's a lot of overlap. It can make Conservative Judaism tough to define sometimes, but I like the range of options I can find in Conservative communities. I was certain at one point that I would convert Reform, but the more reading and exploring I did, the more resonance I found with Conservative Judaism. I wanted a place that would give me room to grow religiously in an egalitarian environment, which I think the Conservative movement can do very well.

There's a reconstructionist synagogue near where I'll be next year! Maybe I'll swing by and visit and come back with a report. and yeah, i can't handle the whole "thanks for not making me a woman" thing.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I've seen Kol Isha dealt with - exceptions to the point that only a performance like Marilyn Munroe singing "Happy Birthday Mr. President" would qualify.

In terms of women wearing kippot - I see a bit of an overlap, because in Orthodox synagogues, married women are supposed to have a hair covering. So, it's not uncommon for women in both Conservative and Modern Orthodox synagogues to wear hats, or these crocheted caps, or these lace things.

As for the other small movements....

Reconstructionist Jews don't necessarily believe that the Torah has a divine origin, but they do believe that it is a cornerstone of Jewish civilization. They will also keep halacha (traditional Jewish law) for the same reason - because it is part of the Jewish civilization, not because it is necessarily divinely commanded. Since they do not believe that the commandments are divine, they will change parts that seem morally objectionable. They were actually the first movement - before Reform - to embrace egalitarianism. Since they are smaller than the Big 3 movements, many Jews aren't really sure what they stand for, but IME many Jews actually have a pretty similar philosophy. In other words, I know many Jews who don't go to a Passover seder because they think that G-d commanded it, but because it's such a huge part of Jewish tradition, and they see a positive social effect to having a ceremony that celebrates freedom from slavery and oppression.

Renewal - again, most Jews probably couldn't define it. It was started by a rebel Chabad rabbi, who basically took the spiritual elements of Chabad philosophy, didn't get hung up on religious rules, and explored other spiritual traditions as well. The founder would say things like, "your brain is like tofu, and prayer and meditation are the marinade". He also felt that in the post-war period, many Jews were spiritually "blocked" from believing in traditional Western religion, so Eastern spirituality became their alternate path to spiritual connection. While the numbers are fairly small, Renewal did have a big impact on the rest of the Jewish

world because it was the force behind The Jewish Catalog - a 3-volume work which was found in tons of Jewish homes, synagogues, libraries, etc. throughout the 1970s and 1980s. I don't know if there are still people who want to batik their own tallit (prayer shawl), but the articles on sexuality, birth control and abortion, tumah and tahara (ritual "impurity"), prayer and Shabbat are still excellent.

[bTW - I'm a bit of a mutt. Grew up traditional Conservative, my father's side is Modern Orthodox, my mother's side was Communist, studied about women in Judaism with a prominent female Reform rabbi, she then sent me to a lecture by Rabbi Zalman Shachter-Shalomi who is the founder of the Renewal movement, took a university course on Major Movements in Jewish history where my 2 papers were on Lurianic Kabbalah (which plays a major role in Chabad) and Reconstructist Judaism and got involved in some outreach-oriented Orthodox groups. Oh, and my hubby is Iraqi, so they have their own traditions.]

Just saw the comments about Lisa Gruschow - I know her and her family. She and my sister were bunk mates at Camp Shalom. My sister would talk about how she was insanely smart. When I did a paper in law school about the debate over women rabbis, her family actually gave me a lot of the material from the Conservative movement.

[pomology]

As pomology mentioned official position of the Conservative movement with regard to which rulings are followed is that when their rabbinical body releases a teshuvah (a religious ruling), in the event of a difference of opinion, it's is up to the judgement of individual congregations which ruling to follow as community practice. Historically, there has been a gulf in observance between Conservative laity and clergy, with the clergy tending to be Modern Orthodox-esque in terms of their observance level, with laity often leaning more Reform, but that can vary a lot by congregation, and there's been a noticeable trend in the last five or ten years of more Conservative Jews taking on higher levels of observance. The whole independent minyanim/chavurah (smaller, unaffiliated prayer groups that are organized at the grass roots level) movement also seems to have a ton of Conservative Jews involved.

As somebody who grew up in the havurah movement (as well as in Conservative Jewry) I'd say that there is a lot of overlap--members of the havurah movement who affiliate tend to be Conservative.

In fact, there was recently a very serious debate about whether the National Havurah Committee would be okay with allowing partnership minyanim at their conventions. On the one hand, it would draw in those who tend towards Modern Orthodox but otherwise might appreciate the Havurah community, but on the other, the movement emerged partially based on egalitarianism and partnership minyanim would defy that purpose.

A large number of independent miynanim/havurot actually meet at Conservative shuls. However, one minyan that I know of was not allowed to meet at their town's Conservative synagogue (despite the fact that the majority of the members of the minyan were also members of the shul) because at the time the shul was completely against egalitarianism (it has since, at least partially, changed its tune).

In general, I think Conservative Jews tend to be those that have problems with Orthodoxy, but still see involvement with Judaism as an important part of their lives. I suppose, however, that that only really applies to people who are active in their shuls and not just members (many, as you said, tend towards Reform in their practice).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Historically, Conservative Jews were those that wanted to move to the suburbs (and thus away from the inner-city Orthodox shuls within walking distance) but still wanted to be observant. The egalitarian stance came much, much later.

The Partnership minyans are cool, and definitely a point where Modern Orthodox intersects with Conservative. For those who haven't heard of them, they are basically an effort conform to the letter of Jewish law, while at the same time relying on liberal interpretations and valuing female participation to the maximum extent possible. It's not egalitarian, but it's about as egalitaritian as you can get within the Orthodox framework. They are careful not to actually define it as a movement, and most groups are roving so that they work in "partnership" with the members' own synagogues.

http://www.jofa.org/social.php/ritual/s ... rtnershipm

[pomology]

Historically, Conservative Jews were those that wanted to move to the suburbs (and thus away from the inner-city Orthodox shuls within walking distance) but still wanted to be observant. The egalitarian stance came much, much later.

The Partnership minyans are cool, and definitely a point where Modern Orthodox intersects with Conservative. For those who haven't heard of them, they are basically an effort conform to the letter of Jewish law, while at the same time relying on liberal interpretations and valuing female participation to the maximum extent possible. It's not egalitarian, but it's about as egalitaritian as you can get within the Orthodox framework. They are careful not to actually define it as a movement, and most groups are roving so that they work in "partnership" with the members' own synagogues.

http://www.jofa.org/social.php/ritual/s ... rtnershipm

I don't know if you're replying to me, but if you are, you'll see that I said that the havurah movement was founded on egalitarianism, not the Conservative movement.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't know if you're replying to me, but if you are, you'll see that I said that the havurah movement was founded on egalitarianism, not the Conservative movement.

I wasn't thinking about the havurah movement specifically, just the comment about Conservative Jews being traditional but having issues with Orthodoxy. That might be true in some cases today, but much of the growth in the Conservative movement came because they allowed people to drive to synagogue on Saturdays. Not a particularly sound legal position, IMO (and the Israeli Masorti movement doesn't allow it), but one that certainly allowed large suburban synagogues to develop.

I know that the havurah movement is somewhat related to Jewish renewal, but since neither actually defines itself as a denomination I wasn't sure how loose the connection was. I know that both influenced the Jewish Catalog.

Oh, and while on the topic of small movements-that-aren't-really-movements, I'll mention the whole trans-denominational idea and things like the Limmud conferences, which offer Jewish learning along multiple streams and from across the Jewish spectrum. The Toronto conference is still pretty limited, but the LA one is absolutely awesome.

[pomology]

I wasn't thinking about the havurah movement specifically, just the comment about Conservative Jews being traditional but having issues with Orthodoxy. That might be true in some cases today, but much of the growth in the Conservative movement came because they allowed people to drive to synagogue on Saturdays. Not a particularly sound legal position, IMO (and the Israeli Masorti movement doesn't allow it), but one that certainly allowed large suburban synagogues to develop.

I know that the havurah movement is somewhat related to Jewish renewal, but since neither actually defines itself as a denomination I wasn't sure how loose the connection was. I know that both influenced the Jewish Catalog.

Oh, and while on the topic of small movements-that-aren't-really-movements, I'll mention the whole trans-denominational idea and things like the Limmud conferences, which offer Jewish learning along multiple streams and from across the Jewish spectrum. The Toronto conference is still pretty limited, but the LA one is absolutely awesome.

Wanting to drive to synagogue on Saturday = issue with Orthodoxy. Not to mention, I was addressing Conservatives today, not the origins of the movement.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Got it. :D

[Sola]

How would you find out what particular denomination a person followed? I'd love to find out more about my maternal great-great grandmother. I found out some years back that she was Jewish and came from the Ukraine when she was a child but other than that I don't know anything really about it. I'd like to explore that part of my heritage really.

[emmiedahl]

The currently accepted divisions are pretty new, Sola. You could probably find out how Judaism was practiced in her time and place.

btw, I have a maternal grandmother who was Jewish and Ukrainian

[Sola]

The currently accepted divisions are pretty new, Sola. You could probably find out how Judaism was practiced in her time and place.

btw, I have a maternal grandmother who was Jewish and Ukrainian

I don't really know that much about them at all. I know they came from somewhere near Kiev and came over here when my gggrandmother was 2 or 3. She grew up and married an English man and from what I can gather, my ggggrandfather was not very happy about it. She went on and had 17 kids! They weren't wealthy at all and lived in a tiny back to back house; how on earth they did that with all those kids is beyond me. No idea if she had any brothers or sisters, but I would love to find out if I have any relatives. The Jewish side of the family ended with her as her husband was a Christian.

[pomology]

I don't really know that much about them at all. I know they came from somewhere near Kiev and came over here when my gggrandmother was 2 or 3. She grew up and married an English man and from what I can gather, my ggggrandfather was not very happy about it. She went on and had 17 kids! They weren't wealthy at all and lived in a tiny back to back house; how on earth they did that with all those kids is beyond me. No idea if she had any brothers or sisters, but I would love to find out if I have any relatives. The Jewish side of the family ended with her as her husband was a Christian.

Do you know what year your family came to the UK?

[chiccy]

I don't really know that much about them at all. I know they came from somewhere near Kiev and came over here when my gggrandmother was 2 or 3. She grew up and married an English man and from what I can gather, my ggggrandfather was not very happy about it. She went on and had 17 kids! They weren't wealthy at all and lived in a tiny back to back house; how on earth they did that with all those kids is beyond me. No idea if she had any brothers or sisters, but I would love to find out if I have any relatives. The Jewish side of the family ended with her as her husband was a Christian.

Sola, in the shtetls of the Old Country, I believe most people practiced something called "traditional" Judaism, which resembled the modern Conservadox practice. I know some Sephardis, as well as the Masortis in Israel, practice something similar today. It's what it sounds like: all the traditions and major laws are kept, but with a bit more flexibility than strict Orthodox would allow, and with fewer chumras (extra strictures built upon the original law to supposedly add to the individual's/community's sanctity).

[2xx1xy1JD]

Exactly. There wasn't any Reform/Conservative/Orthodox division in Ukraine then. The only major division would have been Hasidic or not.

Of course, there were also philosophical differences between those that clung to tradition vs. those that were influenced by the Englightenment, those that supported the Bolsheviks and those that didn't, those that were Zionist and those that weren't, etc. It's just that these different philosophies tended to exist even within the same families. If you watch Fiddler on the Roof, you get a pretty good idea of how it was (minus some of the singing and dancing).

Oh, and traditional Jewish law would consider you to be Jewish, no matter if you're mother was raised Christian or what you actually believe. No "welcome to the Tribe" t-shirts, but you can get free candles from some Chabad girls if you ever see them.

[MollySee]

Exactly. There wasn't any Reform/Conservative/Orthodox division in Ukraine then. The only major division would have been Hasidic or not.

Of course, there were also philosophical differences between those that clung to tradition vs. those that were influenced by the Englightenment, those that supported the Bolsheviks and those that didn't, those that were Zionist and those that weren't, etc. It's just that these different philosophies tended to exist even within the same families. If you watch Fiddler on the Roof, you get a pretty good idea of how it was (minus some of the singing and dancing).

Oh, and traditional Jewish law would consider you to be Jewish, no matter if you're mother was raised Christian or what you actually believe. No "welcome to the Tribe" t-shirts, but you can get free candles from some Chabad girls if you ever see them.

We need welcome to the tribe tee shirts! I would totes wear one!

[Kelya]

There's a thread on Imamother with a woman taking her downstairs neighbor to the religious court for violating kol ishda- her husband can hear the woman below when she sings as she does housework during the day. I was seriously agape at this!

[chiccy]

Exactly. There wasn't any Reform/Conservative/Orthodox division in Ukraine then. The only major division would have been Hasidic or not.

2xx1xy1JD, little nitpicky question since you seem to know a lot about this: didn't Hasidism start after the Holocaust? I remember reading that at least Satmar was started in response to the Holocaust, in hopes of achieving a level of righteousness whereby God would never punish the Jews again. I have heard that the founding members of many Hasidic groups were Holocaust survivors. I know that the Hasidic sects are named after towns in the Old Country where their original members/Rebbes came from, but did Hasidic practice as we understand it today ever exist in the Old Country?

[pomology]

2xx1xy1JD, little nitpicky question since you seem to know a lot about this: didn't Hasidism start after the Holocaust? I remember reading that at least Satmar was started in response to the Holocaust, in hopes of achieving a level of righteousness whereby God would never punish the Jews again. I have heard that the founding members of many Hasidic groups were Holocaust survivors. I know that the Hasidic sects are named after towns in the Old Country where their original members/Rebbes came from, but did Hasidic practice as we understand it today ever exist in the Old Country?

No. Hasidism originated in the 1700s (?) with the Baal Shem Tov. The Satmar sect was not started in response to the Holocaust, but it grew in popularity among Hungarian survivors for that reason. Many of the Jews who died in the Holocaust were Hasids.

Although, I'd like to offer a slight correction. There was traditional Judaism, where a community was led by the kehila, and then there was Hasidism and then there was Mitnagdism which evolved in response to Hasidism. But basically, all Jews at the time were pretty much "traditional" and there were no denominations like today. Although some Jew were completely secularized.

[chiccy]

No. Hasidism originated in the 1700s (?) with the Baal Shem Tov. The Satmar sect was not started in response to the Holocaust, but it grew in popularity among Hungarian survivors for that reason. Many of the Jews who died in the Holocaust were Hasids.

Ahh I forgot about the Besht. Of course he was the founder of Hasidism. So is this right: the Besht started Hasidism in Europe, then after the Holocaust people moved to the U.S. and started groups named after towns they were in in the Old Country. Correct?

[pomology]

Ahh I forgot about the Besht. Of course he was the founder of Hasidism. So is this right: the Besht started Hasidism in Europe, then after the Holocaust people moved to the U.S. and started groups named after towns they were in in the Old Country. Correct?

No. The Hasidic sects that exist today all (or at least mostly) trace their lineage to before the Holocaust.

For example, this is the lineage of Chabad-Lubavitch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad#The ... _Lubavitch Menachem Mendel Schneerson's father-in-law was the previous Lubavitch rebbe and his father before him etc.

Looking at Wikipedia, it seems I was wrong and that Satmar did form in response to the Holocaust, but that was the exception rather than the rule.

ETA: Link that I forgot to copy and paste.

ETA Part 2: Here's a to a wikipedia page that lists several Hasidic dynasties and when they were founded http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hasidic_dynasties

[chiccy]

No. The Hasidic sects that exist today all (or at least mostly) trace their lineage to before the Holocaust.

For example, this is the lineage of Chabad-Lubavitch. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad#The ... _Lubavitch Menachem Mendel Schneerson's father-in-law was the previous Lubavitch rebbe and his father before him etc.

Looking at Wikipedia, it seems I was wrong and that Satmar did form in response to the Holocaust, but that was the exception rather than the rule.

ETA: Link that I forgot to copy and paste.

Got it, thanks.

[pomology]

Yeah, sorry for being pedantic. But I took a class in Eastern European Jewish history last semester and the history nerd in me can't help herself.

[chiccy]

Yeah, sorry for being pedantic. But I took a class in Eastern European Jewish history last semester and the history nerd in me can't help herself.

No worries; nerdiness is to be respected. Also thanks for your 2nd link

[Sola]

Do you know what year your family came to the UK?

Late 1800s, not sure of exact year but somewhere around 1880/90.