Jews: Orthodox, Conservative, Reform

[snarkbillie]

What is the difference/are the differences? I have a pretty good handle on what Orthodox entails but Conservative and reform are a little hazy for me. Anyone around here know? I assume there are no hard and fast rules, but maybe some generalities?

[ilovetchotchkes]

Reform ... well, I'm seeing some funny stuff go on internally. There's like a sub movment within Reform to bring back "CLASSICAL REFORM" where the services are primarily in English. Our shul the services i'd say are about 75% hebrew, 25% english with the sermon in English. I'm the only one I know aside from the clergy at our shul that keeps any semblance of kosher. I dont' know any other Reform Jews that go to the mikveh monthly either. (i do). But, I'm a convert and so.... we're known for being a bit wacky.

[Beeks]

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=What+is+t ... judaism%3F

;-)

[snarkbillie]

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=What+is+the+difference+between+orthodox%2C+conservative+and+reform+judaism%3F

;-)

I actually did Google and browsed around for a few hours before coming here to ask. I know there are some Jewish people here so I was hoping that some of them would have some things to say and maybe I could ask some questions and have a conversation. I understand if that's not what webforums are for though. I guess. :oops:

[ilovetchotchkes]

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=What+is+the+difference+between+orthodox%2C+conservative+and+reform+judaism%3F

;-)

OMG i need this website for a high school friend who asks me the most ASININE questions. "So Tchotchkes, where can you buy organic seeds online?" "So, Tchotchkes, where is a good place in Chicago to buy organic produce." (She lives like 30 miles away from me, so my close by locations would not be local to her)

[emmiedahl]

Basically, Reform Jews believe that only interpersonal mitzvot are required. Many follow other laws because they find them personally meaningful. Reform is also the preferred denomination for nontraditional Jews, such as LGBT, interreligious families, etc.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Definitions change, but I'll try to give the basics.

Orthodox: Believes that the written Torah (5 books of Moses) and oral Torah (Talmud) were both literally given by G-d to Moses. Also upholds the traditional methodology of interpreting Jewish law, and binding nature of legal precedents. Even among Modern Orthodox, there is a view that sexual relationships are for married couples only. Guidelines for modesty are followed, allow there is considerable variation in how they are defined (eg. a Modern Orthodox woman may consider a t-shirt with sleeves almost to the elbow, a light knee-length skirt or culottes or harem pants and a pair of sandals to be perfectly appropriate, while a Satmar woman would wear a high-neck, long sleeve shirt, jacket or vest, A-line skirt that falls 4 inches below the knee, and opaque hosiery with seams.)

Conservative: Believes in divine revelation of written Torah, more or less. Talmud is followed, but is not necessarily seen as a divinely-revealed document but rather as the product of learned holy individuals interpreting the written Torah. Halacha (traditional Jewish law) is considered to be binding, but the Conservative movement has its own organization which deals with religious issues and issues rulings. Those rulings may take modern developments into account in addition to the traditional halacha, and they don't necessarily follow Orthodox methodology. There is much less reliance upon the concept of minhag (long-established binding customs). In recent years, much of the American Conservative movement has embraced egalitarianism, so women can be rabbis and have the same religious role as men. (Egalitarianism is not as prevalent in the Canadian Conservative movement.) Much less focus on formal modesty guidelines, although appropriate dress is expected at synagogue services.

Reform: Believes that the written Torah was at least "divinely inspired", although not necessarily divinely written. Talmud is taught, but seen as the product of the Sages. Moral teachings of the Torah are considered to be binding. Ritual teachings are not. In the past, Reform was openly critical of some ritual observance, believing that it was an embarrassment in modern times. The current thinking is that rituals may be embraced by individuals who may find them meaningful, but aren't considered mandatory by the movement overall. Strong emphasis on social justice issues and activism. Egalitarian and gay-positive. Unlike Orthodox and Conservative, recognizes the children of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother as Jewish if they were raised as Jews, and also requires that the child of a Jewish mother and non-Jewish father be raised as Jews in order to be recognized as Jewish.

A good, quick guide:

http://www.jewfaq.org/movement.htm

At one point, the movements were also related to class issues. The earlier, wealthier German Jews tended to be Reform, and they were a bit appalled when the Russian/Polish Orthodox Jews started to arrive in America in the 1880s. That class issue isn't really relevant today, although I'd say that new class issues are emerging between the modern Orthodox (who get good secular educations and careers) and ultra-Orthodox (who shun advanced secular education, take low-paying religious jobs and have a higher birthrate).

[snarkbillie]

Basically, Reform Jews believe that only interpersonal mitzvot are required. Many follow other laws because they find them personally meaningful. Reform is also the preferred denomination for nontraditional Jews, such as LGBT, interreligious families, etc.

Thanks. I found out that a local conservative Synagogue has a female rabbi so then I started wondering about what the differences between conservative and reform were but I wasn't finding a lot of information online that was making a clear distinction.

[MollySee]

Reform is the chillest group, more low key, not everyone keeps kosher, most people (in my town) only go to temple on the high holy days..

Conservative- slightly more observant, although my best friend's Conservative Synagogue has a pregnant, unmarried female cantor (the person who sings)

I can't really elaborate more than that because I'm really just a cultural Jew (I don't observe religious holidays but I identify with Jewish culture, food, and love me some Yiddish words)

[chiccy]

Conservative- slightly more observant, although my best friend's Conservative Synagogue has a pregnant, unmarried female cantor (the person who sings)

Wow, I didn't realize Conservative allowed female cantors. That would be unheard of (literally) in any Orthodox synagogue. What did they do with the prohibition on Kol Isha, just throw it away as "not modern"?

[MollySee]

Wow, I didn't realize Conservative allowed female cantors. That would be unheard of (literally) in any Orthodox synagogue. What did they do with the prohibition on Kol Isha, just throw it away as "not modern"?

I'm not entirely sure how they handle it, I only went once, but I can ask if you want! This is a very liberal, gay-friendly synagogue in NYC... so maybe that plays into it?

[ilovetchotchkes]

I'm not entirely sure how they handle it, I only went once, but I can ask if you want! This is a very liberal, gay-friendly synagogue in NYC... so maybe that plays into it?

The garden variety conservative synagogue across the street from mine (theres' a lot of co-events and cross pollination some of my fellow congregants belong to both) has a female rabbi. She's pretty fabulous! And if their services are anything like their daily minyan that i've been to - the services themselves are very similar to the one modern Orthodox service I've been to. I keep swearing i'm gonna pop in for a friday night or saturday morning service one of these days but its HARD ENOUGH to get to the synagogue I belong to :)

[MollySee]

The garden variety conservative synagogue across the street from mine (theres' a lot of co-events and cross pollination some of my fellow congregants belong to both) has a female rabbi. She's pretty fabulous! And if their services are anything like their daily minyan that i've been to - the services themselves are very similar to the one modern Orthodox service I've been to. I keep swearing i'm gonna pop in for a friday night or saturday morning service one of these days but its HARD ENOUGH to get to the synagogue I belong to :)

I wish I could go to my friend's synagogue! I helped out in the kids class and it was the CUTEST thing I've ever seen. So sad I'm living outside the city now or I would join! It's a really great community.

[chiccy]

I'm not entirely sure how they handle it, I only went once, but I can ask if you want! This is a very liberal, gay-friendly synagogue in NYC... so maybe that plays into it?

I'd love to know. I keep hearing that Conservatives do consider halacha binding, but Kol Isha is a specific mitzvah and using a female cantor would not only ignore but blatantly flout it. Things like the gender of the rabbi are just minhag I'm pretty sure, so I guess I can see how they get around it. Conservative is very appealing to me in general, but this is just confusing...

[2xx1xy1JD]

I grew up Conservative, but never heard of Kol Isha until I got involved with Orthodoxy.

I know that Modern Orthodoxy looks for every leniency in Kol Isha, and one of those is an exception for holy singing such as z'meimot (religious songs sung at meals) on Shabbat. Maybe they follow this reasoning?

[pomology]

I'd love to know. I keep hearing that Conservatives do consider halacha binding, but Kol Isha is a specific mitzvah and using a female cantor would not only ignore but blatantly flout it. Things like the gender of the rabbi are just minhag I'm pretty sure, so I guess I can see how they get around it. Conservative is very appealing to me in general, but this is just confusing...

I don't know anything about Kol Isha (I'm guessing it has something to do with banning the voice of women in synagogue, based on what it's called?), but, yes, the Conservative movement has female cantors.

Conservatives are generally confusing. Basically, a Conservative Rabbi can write a responsum that says anything and as long as a certain number of rabbis on the law committee of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism vote for it, then congregations are welcome to adopt it. Therefore, it can approve several, contradictory responsa and each congregation chooses for itself what to follow. Conservative Judaism doesn't have a philosophy, per se. They're just Jews who didn't want to be Orthodox, but wanted to be more conservative than Reform Jews (hence the name of the movement).

I like being Conservative because I like traditional Judaism (e.g. I like my services in Hebrew, I keep kosher to a certain extent, etc.), but I am in favor of egalitarianism and am a fairly secular person.

[chiccy]

I grew up Conservative, but never heard of Kol Isha until I got involved with Orthodoxy.

I know that Modern Orthodoxy looks for every leniency in Kol Isha, and one of those is an exception for holy singing such as z'meimot (religious songs sung at meals) on Shabbat. Maybe they follow this reasoning?

Women can sing z'miros, even in some stricter branches of Orthodoxy, because it's with a group...I can't imagine they would let a woman do it solo of there were men present. Which is exactly what the chazzan is doing. I see what you're saying; I just don't get how Conservatives arrive at these decisions (OK, I do, but I don't get how they keep saying that they "believe halacha is binding" if the institution approves things that are so contrary to halacha.)

[chiccy]

I don't know anything about Kol Isha (I'm guessing it has something to do with banning the voice of women in synagogue, based on what it's called?), but, yes, the Conservative movement has female cantors.

Conservatives are generally confusing. Basically, a Conservative Rabbi can write a responsum that says anything and as long as a certain number of rabbis on the law committee of the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism vote for it, then congregations are welcome to adopt it. Therefore, it can approve several, contradictory responsa and each congregation chooses for itself what to follow. Conservative Judaism doesn't have a philosophy, per se. They're just Jews who didn't want to be Orthodox, but wanted to be more conservative than Reform Jews (hence the name of the movement).

I like being Conservative because I like traditional Judaism (e.g. I like my services in Hebrew, I keep kosher to a certain extent, etc.), but I am in favor of egalitarianism and am a fairly secular person.

Thanks for the info. Kol Isha means that men can't hear a woman's singing voice ever (except possibly that of one's wife). There are sometimes leniencies if the voice is on a recording, and MO makes even more leniencies like listening to it through a microphone.

Has anyone seen the film Yentl? It's a Barbara Streisand movie...it's totally outrageous and (IMO) bad, but the worst part is how she sings a lot of solos in it. In front of everybody at the yeshiva, etc. Even though some of those are when she's posing as a boy, it's totally dramaturgically inaccurate.

[shesinsane]

My observations growing up extremely Reform:

A yarmulke (also called a kippah) is that skull cap Jewish males wear.

At the Reform temple, the yarmulke must be worn for a male to enter the room where services are held (and the ark that contains the Torah).

At the Conservative temple, the yarmulke must be worn for a male to enter the building (offices, classrooms, etc).

At the Orthodox shul, the yarmulke is worn all the time by men and boys ages 3 and up.

And then there's the Cultural Jew - someone who isn't religious but defines themselves as a Jew, drops the occasional Yiddish phrase, makes latkes, etc. Kinda like people that never go to church but wear crosses and consider themselves Christians. No prayers, just a way of life.

[FaustianSlip]

I know a number of Conservative Jews (lay people, not rabbis) who wear a kippah full-time. At my synagogue in the States, the majority of women also wore kippot during services and other such activities, and they were technically mandatory for anyone (of either gender, along with tallitot, if the person was over bar/bat mitzvah age) who would be going up to the bimah to receive any synagogue honors. In practice, I did occasionally see older women go up without a kippah or a tallis, and it wasn't like the rabbi tackled them and barred them from going up to the bimah, but it was pretty rare. I think it's really tough to try and separate Reform, Conservative and Orthodox based purely on ritual practice, because most of the time, you can find someone in one of the movements that will violate the rule of thumb.

As for kol isha, I had heard of it before I ever converted, but I'm a halacha geek who reads to much, so my experience may not be typical. I did find this, from a female cantor at a Conservative synagogue, that touches on the issue, and this, on a blog dealing with Jewish music. I think the second link touches on how the Conservative movement got around the issue, at least in part. The original prohibition is specific in saying that a man who is saying kriat Shema (the nighttime Shema, before you go to sleep) who should not listen to a woman singing. So if the Conservative movement uses that as its benchmark, it wouldn't take a lot of work to say, "Okay, so outside of this specific situation, women cantors or other singers are kosher." I looked on the Rabbinical Assembly website, but couldn't find anything specific about kol isha.

Edited to add another link to a series of opinions on kol isha, this one from three rabbis, one from each of the denominations being discussed here. I found the Orthodox rabbi's discussion of a lenient position interesting:

A lenient position however, is advocated by Rabbi Avraham Shammah, from the Herzog Institute in Alon Shevut. He suggests defining parameters of tzniut by context, culture and norms (Jan. 16, 2008,"Kol BIisha erva in a Contemporary Perspective", translated into English - http://www.kolech.org.il/show.asp?id=25318). Similarly, Rabbi David Bigman, of the religious Kibbutz Ma'ale Gilboa, rules that it is permissible to listen to women singing when there is no sexual provocation and criteria of modesty are observed - "Only singing intended for sexual stimulation, or flirtatious singing, is forbidden".

So even in an Orthodox context, there are ways to get around the prohibition. Presumably, your average cantor is not engaging in singing "intended for sexual stimulation" when she's leading davening.

[ilovetchotchkes]

My observations growing up extremely Reform:

A yarmulke (also called a kippah) is that skull cap Jewish males wear.

At the Reform temple, the yarmulke must be worn for a male to enter the room where services are held (and the ark that contains the Torah).

At the Conservative temple, the yarmulke must be worn for a male to enter the building (offices, classrooms, etc).

At the Orthodox shul, the yarmulke is worn all the time by men and boys ages 3 and up.

And then there's the Cultural Jew - someone who isn't religious but defines themselves as a Jew, drops the occasional Yiddish phrase, makes latkes, etc. Kinda like people that never go to church but wear crosses and consider themselves Christians. No prayers, just a way of life.

Depends on the shul.

My husband FREQUENTLY forgets to put one on. Or our 2 year old snatches it off of his head giggling like a maniac....

And i've seen other folks not wear em. However, my father in law who is NOT Jewish in any way shape or form, makes a bee line for the basket to put one on. I think he's EXTRA nervous about appearing respectful. :)

[chiccy]

I know a number of Conservative Jews (lay people, not rabbis) who wear a kippah full-time. At my synagogue in the States, the majority of women also wore kippot during services and other such activities, and they were technically mandatory for anyone (of either gender, along with tallitot, if the person was over bar/bat mitzvah age) who would be going up to the bimah to receive any synagogue honors. In practice, I did occasionally see older women go up without a kippah or a tallis, and it wasn't like the rabbi tackled them and barred them from going up to the bimah, but it was pretty rare. I think it's really tough to try and separate Reform, Conservative and Orthodox based purely on ritual practice, because most of the time, you can find someone in one of the movements that will violate the rule of thumb.

As for kol isha, I had heard of it before I ever converted, but I'm a halacha geek who reads to much, so my experience may not be typical. I did find this, from a female cantor at a Conservative synagogue, that touches on the issue, and [url=http://teruah-jewishmusic.blogspot.com/2008/09/kol-isha.html]this, on a blog dealing with Jewish music. I think the second link touches on how the Conservative movement got around the issue, at least in part. The original prohibition is specific in saying that a man who is saying kriat Shema (the nighttime Shema, before you go to sleep) who should not listen to a woman singing. So if the Conservative movement uses that as its benchmark, it wouldn't take a lot of work to say, "Okay, so outside of this specific situation, women cantors or other singers are kosher." I looked on the Rabbinical Assembly website, but couldn't find anything specific about kol isha.

Thank you! That is really good information. Wow, the women in kippot thing is so strange to me. I've never seen that happen at even the Conservative shuls in my area (and it's a really liberal area). Have seen some women in tallis, though.

[FaustianSlip]

I wear a kippah when I daven, unless I'm in an Orthodox shul where it would distract other people. Definitely if I'm putting on a tallis (and tefillin, if that applies), usually if I'm going to a Torah study class or something like that. I know other women who hardly ever wear them and a handful that wear them full-time (which I think takes some serious ovaries, myself); I think a lot of it boils down to the culture at a particular synagogue. For whatever reason, women at mine have almost universally taken up the habit, but I've been to others where hardly any wear them. I went to a Conservative shul in Melbourne, for instance, where most of us who were wearing a kippah or tallis were from the U.S. Not all, though.

[FaustianSlip]

I actually started typing this earlier but had to rush off to work, so I didn't have time to post it. 2xx1xy1JD's summaries are pretty good. There are also Renewal (even more liberal than Reform) and Reconstructionist (which I don't know much about, because I've never attended a Reconstructionist shul or met anyone who was Reconstructionist).

As pomology mentioned official position of the Conservative movement with regard to which rulings are followed is that when their rabbinical body releases a teshuvah (a religious ruling), in the event of a difference of opinion, it's is up to the judgement of individual congregations which ruling to follow as community practice. Historically, there has been a gulf in observance between Conservative laity and clergy, with the clergy tending to be Modern Orthodox-esque in terms of their observance level, with laity often leaning more Reform, but that can vary a lot by congregation, and there's been a noticeable trend in the last five or ten years of more Conservative Jews taking on higher levels of observance. The whole independent minyanim/chavurah (smaller, unaffiliated prayer groups that are organized at the grass roots level) movement also seems to have a ton of Conservative Jews involved.

The Reform service itself can be really different from Conservative or Orthodox services in that when the Reform movement began, a number of prayers were either truncated or excised from the prayer book completely. The Reform services I've attended have probably broken down along the 75/25 Hebrew to English ratio, and those that didn't typically had more English, not less. Conservative services I've attended have usually been 90-100 percent Hebrew; usually only the sermon is in English. Orthodox services, as you might expect, are usually all Hebrew, all the time. The Conservative and Orthodox prayer books are very, very similar; some language has been changed in the Conservative prayer book, but probably ninety percent of it is virtually identical. When I daven, I'll use either Siddur Sim Shalom, which is the most-used Conservative prayer book, or the Koren Sacks siddur, which is an Orthodox (I would say Modern Orthodox, but I think there probably are people further to the right who will use it) prayer book. The two are virtually identical, except the Conservative siddur changes some prayers, the most notable being the prayer, "Thank you for not making me a woman" (replacing it with "Thank you for making me in your image" for everyone, as opposed to just women) and "Thank you for not making me a non-Jew" (replaced by "Thank you for making me a Jew"). I just replace the Orthodox versions with the Conservative ones when I use the Koren Sacks. I actually used Artscroll for a while, mostly because I wanted transliteration at the time, but it was so far to the right that I just couldn't keep using it.

I think particularly between the Reform and Conservative and Conservative and Orthodox movements, there's a lot of overlap. It can make Conservative Judaism tough to define sometimes, but I like the range of options I can find in Conservative communities. I was certain at one point that I would convert Reform, but the more reading and exploring I did, the more resonance I found with Conservative Judaism. I wanted a place that would give me room to grow religiously in an egalitarian environment, which I think the Conservative movement can do very well.

[Kishiria]

Reform is the chillest group, more low key, not everyone keeps kosher, most people (in my town) only go to temple on the high holy days..

Conservative- slightly more observant, although my best friend's Conservative Synagogue has a pregnant, unmarried female cantor (the person who sings)

I can't really elaborate more than that because I'm really just a cultural Jew (I don't observe religious holidays but I identify with Jewish culture, food, and love me some Yiddish words)

Is one of your rabbis Lisa Grushcow?