Revenge for Posthumous Mormon Baptisms?

[deelaem]

With my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, I wanted to let y'all know something. Just in case the Mormons are right (!), if you're baptized posthumously you only get to go to ghetto Mormon Heaven. No Celestial Kingdom for anyone who isn't in the priesthood or married to it! But that's ok, I think ghetto Mormon heaven will be a helluva lot more fun. They'll probably serve coffee, at least.

[emmiedahl]

So, are these only performed posthumously? I am trying to figure out if I am secretly a Mormon. lmao

[Cheesemaker]

With my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, I wanted to let y'all know something. Just in case the Mormons are right (!), if you're baptized posthumously you only get to go to ghetto Mormon Heaven. No Celestial Kingdom for anyone who isn't in the priesthood or married to it! But that's ok, I think ghetto Mormon heaven will be a helluva lot more fun. They'll probably serve coffee, at least.

And wine!

[Samantha]

I just answered yes on everything because if I was really honest about not having a testimony, I wouldn't get one and you know the rumours that fly around... I must have been sleeping around (with whom? I didn't date till I was almost 20) or something! :roll:

I just didn't go to the interviews. I stayed home and told myself how horrible I was and would pray for help. My last interview, the counselor

conducting it asked me if I knew what chastity was. I answered yes. And he told me to describe in detail what it meant. I got a creeper vibe and never went for a temple recommend interview again.

And oh boy, do I know about the rumours! That's how I realized it was all a lie actually. I confided some personal things to my young women's leader, who I loved and trusted. Well she went and told some parents to keep their daughters away from me because I was falling away from the church and trying to lead their daughter's astray. So I went to the bishop and told him none of that was true. He told me I obviously wasn't reading my scriptures and praying like I should. I walked out of his office that day and told my mom that I wanted to be done with it all. That bitch had caused me several nervous breakdowns and the bishop's only advice was to pray and read my scriptures. She remains the YW President to this day (my breakdown happened in 2009.)

With my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, I wanted to let y'all know something. Just in case the Mormons are right (!), if you're baptized posthumously you only get to go to ghetto Mormon Heaven. No Celestial Kingdom for anyone who isn't in the priesthood or married to it! But that's ok, I think ghetto Mormon heaven will be a helluva lot more fun. They'll probably serve coffee, at least.

I like that terminology. Did you know Hitler and Stalin will also be in ghetto mormon heaven?

[Jessica]

So, are these only performed posthumously? I am trying to figure out if I am secretly a Mormon. lmao

LOL! Yes, they have to wait a year after someone dies to do it. People are sometimes baptised multiple times. I think I read once that Elvis has been baptised like...15 times or something. Oy...

[Rachel333]

With my tongue firmly planted in my cheek, I wanted to let y'all know something. Just in case the Mormons are right (!), if you're baptized posthumously you only get to go to ghetto Mormon Heaven. No Celestial Kingdom for anyone who isn't in the priesthood or married to it! But that's ok, I think ghetto Mormon heaven will be a helluva lot more fun. They'll probably serve coffee, at least.

I don't think the lower heavens sound so bad (though you can't have sex unless you're in the CK :lol: ), but my understanding is that you can go to the celestial kingdom even if you're not married (but you still can't be exalted) and sometimes even if you were baptised posthumously. I think we're out of luck because we already know this and we're still choosing not to be baptised, though. :P

[mirele]

I think what is happening is a combination of things:

* There is no quality control being performed on any of the names submitted (hence, Elvis had his work done 15 times, Jews keep getting baptized despite the eleventy-seven agreements made between the Mormon church and Jewish groups).

* The temples are DESPERATE for names. So they'll take anything if it even looks halfway good.

The Church, long ago, ran out of names of ancestors of members. So documents were microfilmed from counties and countries all over the world. Then a process known as "name extraction" would occur. You have a will for a "John Smith" who lived in Sussex in 1637 and was married. So you have two names: John Smith and Mrs. John Smith. You can baptize both of them, take out their endowments and seal them together. In the meantime, someone else has extracted the name of Mrs. John Smith from a parish register, and it's Agnes Cooper. So, again, a baptism and an endowment, but no sealing unless evidence comes up of the linkage between John Smith and Agnes Cooper....unless you get evidence of their marriage from another parish register, and the beat goes on. And on.

Then you have people who want to do dead famous people for the sake of doing dead famous people. If the person is related to you, you have to wait a year until after they're dead to submit their names. But if not, then (in the past) you had to wait 100 years to do their work. I know that wasn't really honored at all, because I knew women who submitted the names of Famous Women Authors of England, you know, like Virginia Woolf (who committed suicide at the beginning of World War II) and did their work and were proud of it! They weren't related, it hadn't been 100 years and she was married to Leonard Woolf, a Jew. In other words, the work shouldn't have been done, but it was, because the temples are desperate for names. So desperate, I've heard anecdotally that names get recycled on a regular basis.

Now, you might ask, why would the Mormon church do that? And why would the church continue to build more temples (for example, two more temples are going up in the Phoenix area)? Because the bean counters employed by the church have figured out that building more temples pays...in the fact that people will get "excited" about having a temple locally and plunk down their 10 percent so they can be a full tithepayer and get that coveted Temple Recommend. I've heard that the costs of the temples are more than paid for in the amount of increased tithing prior to opening, and since the vast majority of the labor in running the temple is volunteer, all that needs to be paid for on a regular basis is some upkeep.

And, to top it all off, after all the hype, the temple ceremony is boring and you are supposed to wear garments or else the unofficially appointed "garment police" will rat you out to the bishop. *shakes head*

tl;dr: there's no QC, the names are recycled, but building temples and keeping them running makes the Mormon church money.

[CustardTart]

I never thought it was a big deal, but you people are scaring me! I get the feeling many of you think the Mormon baptism really does something?? Like, it DOES affect the souls of the dead? Please help me understand this.

[Samantha]

I never thought it was a big deal, but you people are scaring me! I get the feeling many of you think the Mormon baptism really does something?? Like, it DOES affect the souls of the dead? Please help me understand this.

To me it's like spitting on someone's grave. That person did not ask to be mormon. And even though I don't believe in mormonism, it is still insulting and wrong to baptise an unwilling individual.

Or in the case of a Holocaust victim (who was Jewish), it is just rude. That person died for their religion, but the mormon's say that doesn't matter because mormonism is the only way to heaven.

I left the mormon church because of severe emotional and psychological abuse. I do not want someone to re-baptise me when I am dead because I believe the mormon church is an evil cult. I know I'll be dead and it won't *matter.* But ethically it just seems wrong.

[MollySee]

Does it really matter? Is there another issue I am missing, besides the sheer hubris?

I am sure I, as well as many of my relatives, have been or will be unknowingly baptized Mormon. But I don't believe in their particular breed of mishegas, so I don't think it actually makes us Mormon.

I just have to tell you, I always appreciate a good mishegas usage! and that is totally what this is!

[emmiedahl]

lol mishegas is my favorite Yiddish word.

[Chasingthedog]

When my mormon friend was explaining all of the stuff of mormonism, she was telling me about baptisms of the dead and my eyes got huge and I lost my breath, and I said "What... what if they were burned?"

Yeah, I thought you actually dunked a dead body, LOL. I was in my 20s when I learned of this.

And it's totally messed up to baptize someone without their consent, believer or non-believer, dead or alive, or somewhere in between.

[chiccy]

To me it's like spitting on someone's grave. That person did not ask to be mormon. And even though I don't believe in mormonism, it is still insulting and wrong to baptise an unwilling individual.

Or in the case of a Holocaust victim (who was Jewish), it is just rude. That person died for their religion, but the mormon's say that doesn't matter because mormonism is the only way to heaven.

I left the mormon church because of severe emotional and psychological abuse. I do not want someone to re-baptise me when I am dead because I believe the mormon church is an evil cult. I know I'll be dead and it won't *matter.* But ethically it just seems wrong.

I agree that the posthumous baptisms are very distasteful and should not happen. However, I can't really blame the Mormons who do it. It just means they are very sincere in their beliefs and honestly want these people to get to heaven.

I remember when my poor aunt was dying of a rare brain disease, my mom's friend--a wacky, crazy evangelical--came to visit her in the hospital. My aunt could no longer speak coherently and was a day or two away from death. My mom's friend kept trying to make her say that she accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior before she died (My aunt is Jewish, as the friend knew.) It was horrible and it makes me queasy just to think about it, but at the same time, I forgive my mom's friend because she honestly believed she would be saving my aunt from Hell.

[Rachel333]

And it's totally messed up to baptize someone without their consent, believer or non-believer, dead or alive, or somewhere in between.

They do see consent as necessary, though. It's not an automatic "now you're baptised, whether you like it or not", as the dead person still has to accept or refuse the baptism in the spirit world. Of course, if it's true, as they believe it is, why wouldn't you accept? So they assume that the dead people have accepted even though they have the option of refusing.

I actually like that in Mormonism everyone goes to heaven, essentially. Much better than a lot of religions.

[chiccy]

I actually like that in Mormonism everyone goes to heaven, essentially. Much better than a lot of religions.

Wait, if everyone goes to heaven, why do they bother with the baptisms?

[Rachel333]

Wait, if everyone goes to heaven, why do they bother with the baptisms?

That's how everyone goes to heaven, I think. I think you're stuck in kind of a spirit limbo otherwise. I'm a little fuzzy on how it all works, but I know that even if you don't get baptised you aren't going to hell.

[Samantha]

I agree that the posthumous baptisms are very distasteful and should not happen. However, I can't really blame the Mormons who do it. It just means they are very sincere in their beliefs and honestly want these people to get to heaven.

I remember when my poor aunt was dying of a rare brain disease, my mom's friend--a wacky, crazy evangelical--came to visit her in the hospital. My aunt could no longer speak coherently and was a day or two away from death. My mom's friend kept trying to make her say that she accepted Jesus as her Lord and Savior before she died (My aunt is Jewish, as the friend knew.) It was horrible and it makes me queasy just to think about it, but at the same time, I forgive my mom's friend because she honestly believed she would be saving my aunt from Hell.

I can understand that. I was one of those mormons. I did everything I was supposed to. I followed every single rule exactly as intended. And when I didn't I understood that I was disappointing God. And then I learned that Holocaust victims were being baptised. That crossed a line for me and I was utterly disgusted.

Wait, if everyone goes to heaven, why do they bother with the baptisms?

Because only baptised members can get into the Celestial Kingdom. If not you're stuck in one of the other two levels. The bottom one contains murderers and Hitler and people like that. And the middle one contains those who weren't bad people they just weren't good enough.

[valsa]

I never thought it was a big deal, but you people are scaring me! I get the feeling many of you think the Mormon baptism really does something?? Like, it DOES affect the souls of the dead? Please help me understand this.

I don't believe in souls but I still think it's a shit thing to do. Very disrespectful. And I don't care if they sincerely believe they're doing the right thing. I could go crazy and sincerely believe that I need to set fire to a daycare, but that doesn't make it anything less than horrible (and these people don't even have insanity to blame it on)

[Rachel333]

Because only baptised members can get into the Celestial Kingdom. If not you're stuck in one of the other two levels. The bottom one contains murderers and Hitler and people like that. And the middle one contains those who weren't bad people they just weren't good enough.

Okay, so if, say, you were a peasant who never had a record of your name, could you still go to the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms? I've always been pretty confused about the Mormon afterlife. My understanding is that there are at least five places you could end up going after you die: the three kingdoms, outer darkness, and whatever the spirit world is (you go through there on your way to a heaven, don't you?). Is there more than one spirit world, or more than one interpretation of it? It seems like some members talk about it like it's an actual place, and some talk about it like it's another dimension and people there are like ghosts.

[Samantha]

Okay, so if, say, you were a peasant who never had a record of your name, could you still go to the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms? I've always been pretty confused about the Mormon afterlife. My understanding is that there are at least five places you could end up going after you die: the three kingdoms, outer darkness, and whatever the spirit world is (you go through there on your way to a heaven, don't you?). Is there more than one spirit world, or more than one interpretation of it? It seems like some members talk about it like it's an actual place, and some talk about it like it's another dimension and people there are like ghosts.

Okay, so as I came to understand it (it never made much sense to me anyway), there is the Spirit world. You go there once you die. If you were a righteous member then you go to do spirit work on the other side. If you were never a member or an exmember, your soul gets put it spirit prison.

If you're put in spirit prison, you are stuck there until a person on Earth is baptised and confirmed for you. Or if that never happens, you have to wait for Jesus to return to Earth, then you'll be given the oppertunity to be baptised.

After that Judgement Day will come and you'll be assigned one of the degrees of glory. The most righteous will go the the CK. And inside the CK there are three more degrees. The ones who get to go to the highest kingdom there get to become gods of their own planets (if they're married men).

The others who couldn't go to the CK will be split between the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms. I forgot which one is worse. Most everyone will go to a degree of glory. So like I said, even evil people will earn a degree of glory.

Then there is outer darkness. That is reserved for those who know Jesus or The Holy Ghost but deny them.

So looking at your senerio, the peasant is out of luck until Jesus returns to Earth. If that peasant had never had the opportunity to hear of the mormon truth, that peasant might be forgiven and allowed to go above the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms. If they had heard of the mormon church then they're stuck in one of the other two kingdoms.

This is how I understood the afterlife to work and had it explained to me.

*Edited for typos*

[Rachel333]

Thanks for the explanation! I forgot about the three degrees of the CK.

As for the order of the three kingdoms, I was taught to remember "sea turtle": CElestial, TERrestrial, TELestial.

[emmiedahl]

How does one know Jesus and deny him? Is this like Jews who have heard of Christianity and just don't believe?

[Rachel333]

How does one know Jesus and deny him? Is this like Jews who have heard of Christianity and just don't believe?

Usually that means actually seeing Jesus in person and then denying him, which means that only a few people would even be eligible for that. You'd have to have an experience like Joseph Smith had.

I have heard that some people think that Mormon apostates will go to Outer Darkness, but I think that's an unusually strict belief.

Otherwise, like in your example, you just don't get to go to the Celestial Kingdom, but you still end up in one of the other heavens.

[TennesseeWaltz]

I completely understand that baptism of the dead/by proxy is an important part of the LDS belief system.

What bothers me personally (and several of you, it seems) is that these individuals were kidnapped, tortured, murdered, and disposed of like garbage because they were Jewish. Tattooed with numbers (not cool if you're an observant Jew). Cremated (also not cool, Jewish burial is clearly defined). It makes me ill.

I wonder how the LDS leadership and members (not to mention his descendants) would feel if I declared myself to be standing in for Joseph Smith (founder of the church and murdered because of his beliefs), hopped into a Mikvah, and declared him to be Jewish?

[chiccy]

I completely understand that baptism of the dead/by proxy is an important part of the LDS belief system.

What bothers me personally (and several of you, it seems) is that these individuals were kidnapped, tortured, murdered, and disposed of like garbage because they were Jewish. Tattooed with numbers (not cool if you're an observant Jew). Cremated (also not cool, Jewish burial is clearly defined). It makes me ill.

I wonder how the LDS leadership and members (not to mention his descendants) would feel if I declared myself to be standing in for Joseph Smith (founder of the church and murdered because of his beliefs), hopped into a Mikvah, and declared him to be Jewish?

I get what you're saying, totally. (Also the last part was really funny.) Still, I can't blame the Mormons for this, because I think it is just evidence that they sincerely believe in their doctrine and care about these people they are baptizing. In this sense, it would almost be an indictment of them if they DIDN'T do it. That would reveal either that they didn't really believe in their faith or didn't really care about people who weren't Mormons in their lifetime.

If they want Anne Frank to go to the highest level of their heaven, that's okay with me. What confounds me is that they think it is up to them to make that happen, as though God couldn't put her there if he wanted to.