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Revenge for Posthumous Mormon Baptisms?


tropaka

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I get what you're saying, totally. (Also the last part was really funny.) Still, I can't blame the Mormons for this, because I think it is just evidence that they sincerely believe in their doctrine and care about these people they are baptizing. In this sense, it would almost be an indictment of them if they DIDN'T do it. That would reveal either that they didn't really believe in their faith or didn't really care about people who weren't Mormons in their lifetime.

If they want Anne Frank to go to the highest level of their heaven, that's okay with me. What confounds me is that they think it is up to them to make that happen, as though God couldn't put her there if he wanted to.

I'm with you. Your last sentence pretty much sums up my thoughts in a much better way than I did! I kind of talked around my point so much that I missed it. Can we chalk it up to a fit of rage?

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Chiccy, your last sentence is what bothers me about Christianity as pure philosophy in a nutshell. They think they have God in their pocket, like they make the rules and even God must obey them. It's so odd. I had a Christian parent but he was more agnostic, so I was not introduced to this idea until Lutheran school in junior high. I've never really wrapped my head around it.

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I have been becoming more and more irritated by people who want to shove their religion down my throat. I don't care any more if those people are sweet or well meaning or really whatever their motivation is. It strikes me as hubris of a particularly virulent sort to assume that they know what is best for me. At least the living who feel like I do can walk away from these people. The dead don't have that option. So I don't particularly care if the Mormons who do posthumous baptisms are well meaning or wackadoodles. They need to just stop.

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Thanks for the explanation! I forgot about the three degrees of the CK.

As for the order of the three kingdoms, I was taught to remember "sea turtle": CElestial, TERrestrial, TELestial.

That is a great way to remember it. Haha. And you're welcome for the explanation.

I look back at what I used to believe and facepalm everytime. It begins to sound as wacky as Scientology the farther I leave it behind me. :oops: And as far as apostates going to outer darkness, I'm sure many members would like us there. Sadly even us heathens get a degree of glory. :dance:

I get what you're saying, totally. (Also the last part was really funny.) Still, I can't blame the Mormons for this, because I think it is just evidence that they sincerely believe in their doctrine and care about these people they are baptizing. In this sense, it would almost be an indictment of them if they DIDN'T do it. That would reveal either that they didn't really believe in their faith or didn't really care about people who weren't Mormons in their lifetime.

Referring to mormons sincerly believeing this. A lot of the mormons I knew did not care about what baptisms for the dead meant. They only do it out of custom. Which really eliminates them doing it out of caring about the well-being of the souls.

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Still, I can't blame the Mormons for this, because I think it is just evidence that they sincerely believe in their doctrine and care about these people they are baptizing.

So? Christian Scientists sincerely believe that they need to pray for their sick children instead of taking them to the doctor. People who want to force women to give birth, even if it puts their physical or mental health at risk, sincerely believe that a fetus is the same as a 5 year old. People who adhere to what the Pearls preach sincerely believe that they need to beat their children to keep them out of Hell.

Why do they get brownie points for sincerely believing? That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

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I have been becoming more and more irritated by people who want to shove their religion down my throat. I don't care any more if those people are sweet or well meaning or really whatever their motivation is. It strikes me as hubris of a particularly virulent sort to assume that they know what is best for me. At least the living who feel like I do can walk away from these people. The dead don't have that option. So I don't particularly care if the Mormons who do posthumous baptisms are well meaning or wackadoodles. They need to just stop.

yup yup!

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I have been becoming more and more irritated by people who want to shove their religion down my throat. I don't care any more if those people are sweet or well meaning or really whatever their motivation is. It strikes me as hubris of a particularly virulent sort to assume that they know what is best for me. At least the living who feel like I do can walk away from these people. The dead don't have that option. So I don't particularly care if the Mormons who do posthumous baptisms are well meaning or wackadoodles. They need to just stop.

Your post made me think of this quote: "Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one. It's fine to be proud of it. But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around.And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my children's throats."

Even if they're well meaning people who truly believe what they're doing, it doesn't make it right. It's extremely disrespeful, especially to people who died for their religious belief, but to all people. It's just an "i'm better than all people" attitude.

Plus didn't they say many times over the years that they would stop doing this? Yet they still do it, so doesn't that make them liars? I guess they'd say they're lying for Jesus so it doesn't really count.

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So? Christian Scientists sincerely believe that they need to pray for their sick children instead of taking them to the doctor. People who want to force women to give birth, even if it puts their physical or mental health at risk, sincerely believe that a fetus is the same as a 5 year old. People who adhere to what the Pearls preach sincerely believe that they need to beat their children to keep them out of Hell.

Why do they get brownie points for sincerely believing? That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

Because at least it means they're not hypocrites. Which they would be if they didn't do the posthumous baptisms that are prescribed by their doctrine. If you truly realize how ridiculous their religion is, it shouldn't matter whether they baptize someone you care about or not. It obviously has no actual effect on the deceaseds' souls or who they are and were; it doesn't even involve them, rationally speaking. It's just a bunch of Mormons doing their ridiculous thang.

Sure, it's in poor taste--but so is most of Mormonism.

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Guest Anonymous

I'm a genealogist and non-Mormon. I freely share my information with anyone who is interested. What they choose to with it once they get it, I don't really care. So, if they want to preform Mormon rituals on them posthumously, then so be it. Since I don't share their beliefs, it wouldn't bother me in the least. If anything, refusing to share and help fellow genealogist defeats the whole purpose of the hobby in the first place.

EDIT TO ADD: Later on when I would visit the FHC at the LDS church in my town, not once did anybody try to preach. I felt more like I was in a library, and the ladies who helped me felt more like librarians. But one of the ladies did tell me about the history of the LDS church in my town, but that felt like a history lesson.

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I don't believe in souls but I still think it's a shit thing to do. Very disrespectful. And I don't care if they sincerely believe they're doing the right thing. I could go crazy and sincerely believe that I need to set fire to a daycare, but that doesn't make it anything less than horrible (and these people don't even have insanity to blame it on)

This.

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I completely understand that baptism of the dead/by proxy is an important part of the LDS belief system.

What bothers me personally (and several of you, it seems) is that these individuals were kidnapped, tortured, murdered, and disposed of like garbage because they were Jewish. Tattooed with numbers (not cool if you're an observant Jew). Cremated (also not cool, Jewish burial is clearly defined). It makes me ill.

I wonder how the LDS leadership and members (not to mention his descendants) would feel if I declared myself to be standing in for Joseph Smith (founder of the church and murdered because of his beliefs), hopped into a Mikvah, and declared him to be Jewish?

Or, you know, not cool because it's fucked up and dehumanizing and takes away your name which is your identity as a person.

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Or, you know, not cool because it's fucked up and dehumanizing and takes away your name which is your identity as a person.

I should have clarified that better. Tattooing in general is taboo for Jews. Obviously this was so much fucking worse. I feel like an ass now.

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I should have clarified that better. Tattooing in general is taboo for Jews. Obviously this was so much fucking worse. I feel like an ass now.

No, you're right; it would have been horrible no matter what, but it was even worse for Jews for this reason.

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I'm a genealogist and non-Mormon. I freely share my information with anyone who is interested. What they choose to with it once they get it, I don't really care. So, if they want to preform Mormon rituals on them posthumously, then so be it. Since I don't share their beliefs, it wouldn't bother me in the least.

This. I almost think that caring too much is ascribing too much credibility to their rituals.

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No, you're right; it would have been horrible no matter what, but it was even worse for Jews for this reason.

Thank you. I should choose my words more carefully. I'm in the process of converting to Judaism. I didn't know before starting my Intro to Judaism class that tattooing is taboo. It just made me feel even worse about the atrocities (which I didn't think was possible) when I learned of the rules about tattooing and cremation.

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The day after my dad died(he was a devout catholic & died in Utah) I had at least 3 people approach me about taking his name to the temple. At first I was upset but then I thought about it. My dad loved the catholic church and it really didn't matter what someone did at the temple. Since then my husband's temple working aunt who has terminal cancer asked for my family tree. She was so excited to get 100's of names. Her kids said she feels like she has purpose in her final days. I don't believe that by her getting baptizing it is changing all my family into mormons. It gives her joy and I just leave it at that.

I have read there is a lack of names being submitted. There are ex-temple workers that say names are being re-used. My husband did baptism for the dead as a kid a few times and said he didn't believe what he was doing really changed anything.(He went on the temple trips as a teen a few times to get of of his house that was full over 20+ kids with one bathroom!)

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I should have clarified that better. Tattooing in general is taboo for Jews. Obviously this was so much fucking worse. I feel like an ass now.

I mean, I know (and as a young child, before I had a sense of the fact that the Tanach was written thousands of years before the Holocaust I thought that tattoos were taboo because of the Holocaust), but honestly, the fact that it is a taboo in Judaism is the least of the problems with the numbers on people's arms. Yes, the fact that it violates Jewish tradition was adding insult to injury, but given that many of the Jews who died in the Holocaust were relatively secular, I just wanted to add the fact even if the concept of tattoos didn't bother them, it was still a ridiculously shitty thing to do to another human being. And then, of course, the Mormons come and add yet another insult to injury.

On a slightly unrelated note, my Birthright tour guide was telling us about how he once met this girl who had her grandparent's number tattooed on her arm. What the fuck. I don't even.

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No, you're right; it would have been horrible no matter what, but it was even worse for Jews for this reason.

Wait, so you think tattooing Jewish people without their permission is horrible but baptizing them as Mormon without their permission is fine? Guess the Nazis just didn't believe sincerely enough.

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Wait, so you think tattooing Jewish people without their permission is horrible but baptizing them as Mormon without their permission is fine? Guess the Nazis just didn't believe sincerely enough.

So you think that baptizing people as Mormon is just as bad as tattooing their wrists in a death camp? Because that's the negation of what you're accusing me of saying (which is in fact pretty close to what I'm actually saying). I think baptizing them without their permission is "fine" distasteful, but ultimately not that bad because baptizing them doesn't actually do anything to them. It's just Mormon sorcery. Would I have a problem with it if someone cast a witchy spell on me or, for that matter, on my dead ancestors? Only a very mild one, because I don't believe what they're doing has any power.

And let's be clear here: you're the one Godwinizing this, not me.

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So you think that baptizing people as Mormon is just as bad as tattooing their wrists in a death camp? Because that's the negation of what you're accusing me of saying (which is in fact pretty close to what I'm actually saying). I think baptizing them without their permission is "fine" distasteful, but ultimately not that bad because baptizing them doesn't actually do anything to them. It's just Mormon sorcery. Would I have a problem with it if someone cast a witchy spell on me or, for that matter, on my dead ancestors? Only a very mild one, because I don't believe what they're doing has any power.

And let's be clear here: you're the one Godwinizing this, not me.

I think doing anything to anyone without their permission is a horrible thing to do. The tattooing is just as spiritually disrespectful as the baptism.

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I think doing anything to anyone without their permission is a horrible thing to do. The tattooing is just as spiritually disrespectful as the baptism.

Did you mean to say "the baptism is just as spiritually disrespectful as the tattooing"? Because if you're in fact saying "the tattooing is just as spiritually disrespectful as the baptism," I would disagree only insofar as I think tattooing is way more spiritually disrespectful, among other reasons it is more awful in every way.

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I think doing anything to anyone without their permission is a horrible thing to do. The tattooing is just as spiritually disrespectful as the baptism.

Yes, but tattooing somebody without their permission and replacing their identity with a number is a lot more than just spiritually disrespectful. It's violent, painful, dehumanizing, and all other sorts of fucked up in addition to whatever spiritual implications it might have.

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Yes, but tattooing somebody without their permission and replacing their identity with a number is a lot more than just spiritually disrespectful. It's violent, painful, dehumanizing, and all other sorts of fucked up in addition to whatever spiritual implications it might have.

This. I'll agree that the baptizing is spiritually disrespectful, but it's spiritually disrespectful at worst. The tattooing is spiritually disrespectful at best.

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Did you mean to say "the baptism is just as spiritually disrespectful as the tattooing"? Because if you're in fact saying "the tattooing is just as spiritually disrespectful as the baptism," I would disagree only insofar as tattooing is WAY more "spiritually disrespectful."

How so? Exactly how is forcing someone to violate a tenant of their religion worse than stripping them of that religion and throwing it in the garbage after they're dead?

Yes, but tattooing somebody without their permission and replacing their identity with a number is a lot more than just spiritually disrespectful. It's violent, painful, dehumanizing, and all other sorts of fucked up in addition to whatever spiritual implications it might have.

That's why I specified "spiritually" and am only focusing on that issue (chiccy opened the door by claiming that the tattooing was extra horrible because of the spiritual implications, while ignoring the spiritual implications of the baptisms)

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