"I'm interested in adoption - anyone got a spare baby?"

[Elle]

I realize I am a total judgmental bitch about this, but nothing pisses me off more than the fact that there are thousands of children in foster care eligible for adoption, and folks would rather pay for either IVF or the flat out extortion fees that private adoption or foreign adoption costs.

I am infertile, so I know how hard that can be. I've mourned my not being able to have children, made peace with it. But really? Why adopt a special needs child from China when there are special needs children in the US who need parents as well? It just seems ridiculous.

Not everyone qualifies to adopt within the US, and many people are afraid of having a child that is later taken from them because the birth parents manage to regain their rights. Once rights are severed, that should be that, but that's not always the case. It's not an easy thing.

Plus sometimes people have insurance that will cover IVF but nothing to help with adoption costs.

You can say the same thing about fertile couples, you know. Why toss out the condoms if they can adopt from the foster care system. How to have a child is a very personal decision, and the way that is right for you might not be right for another, and might not even be possible for another. You may be willing to risk a birth parent sauntering back into the picture and snatching the child back with the court's blessing, and you might be able to pass all the medical screenings, but not everyone is you. You are you. Adopting from the foster system might be right for you and work for you, but not for everyone. Each situation is different. Let me tell you though, it hurts being told you're not good enough to adopt a foster child and the reason you're not good enough is the very medical that caused your infertility to begin with.

Know what else? I've heard argument for why adopting is selfish. Why not use the money you'd use on fertility treatments or adopting and instead send it to a poor family somewhere so they can keep their children and afford to raise them without turning to crime. It's been argued that adopting for a child for yourself is selfish when a big reason many people adopt or ultimately neglect their kids is because of poverty. I first heard this on NPR and nearly started screaming at the radio. Yes, there are people who believe adoption is wrong because it's selfish! Just like there are people who think fertility treatments are wrong and selfish. There are many who think having biological children instead of adopting is selfish. Of course if you adopt, you're selfish. if you say screw it and go the child-free route, someone's still going to call you selfish. Damned if you do,d amend if you don't, no way to get away from being damned.

[Elle]

Thats not what my friend in the process was told. And when they signed up, initially adoption from china was a 2-3 year thing. Then China passed a bunch of laws that stated that they had to domestically adopt more kids rather than adopt them out into a foreign country.

I'm just going on what my friend has told me, and another friend, who looked into it but decided against it, told me the same thing.

Yup. Concern that China and other countries are becoming baby-mills for the rich west has resulted in it being harder for Americans to adopt any children at all. When I was a kid, some neighbors adopted two kids, a boy from Korea and a girl from China. They met both kids for the first time when they got off the plane, like mail-order kids. A friend adopted about nine years ago from China, and it took a few years. The special needs ended up being nothing but a lack of nurturing and food, and the child is completely typical in every way now. It's gotten harder since then because of laws mandating more domestic adoptions to match foreign adoptions. Special needs kids can be adopted faster just to get them out of the system, but it's still a slow process.

I wouldn't be surprised though is there weren't bribes passed every now and then though to get stuff pushed through much faster than it would be otherwise.

[Elle]

What bugs me is people who refuse to consider adoption because it wouldn't be "their" child. I always suspect that they want a kid for some sort of ego trip. "Look, my genes continue!"

YES! THIS pisses me off. I've known plenty of people who only want biokids because of the whole genetics thing. It's like, look, there's nothing special about your genetics, get over yourself. Not even a "we'd love to make a child together." No, it is genetics needing to be passed on! Shit. In my family, out of my and my cousins' combined 13 kids, 5 have been adopted OUT, and one is a step-child whose other parent bailed, and that child is accepted as out family even without a genetic tie. It's fucked how some people only see family as DNA matches. If it's about about matching genetics, then how can spouses be family? Because it's LOVE.

I'm sure my rant is incoherent.

[valsa]

You can say the same thing about fertile couples, you know. Why toss out the condoms if they can adopt from the foster care system. How to have a child is a very personal decision, and the way that is right for you might not be right for another, and might not even be possible for another. You may be willing to risk a birth parent sauntering back into the picture and snatching the child back with the court's blessing, and you might be able to pass all the medical screenings, but not everyone is you. You are you. Adopting from the foster system might be right for you and work for you, but not for everyone. Each situation is different. Let me tell you though, it hurts being told you're not good enough to adopt a foster child and the reason you're not good enough is the very medical that caused your infertility to begin with.

This.

[Elle]

Thanks for the well wishes! :) I am only 28, so I know that we "have time", but it is heartbreaking when you think it might have worked and then... Aunt Flo shows her fugly face instead. :)

How do y'all feel about adopting children whose parents rights have been terminated? (like here in the us)

Usually when parental rights for both parents have been terminated, it's for good reason. Usually. CPS is notorious for returning kids to abuse, but also for keeping the more adoptable kids who never should have been removed. If you go that route, I suggest a foster-adopt program so that you'll know about the individual case and can decide if what's going on is something you would feel good being involved in in permanently keeping the child. If you're fostering a child and the parental rights are terminated because they were doing terrible things and had no desire to change, then you probably would, but if the parents simply had a couple arguments that elevated to screaming and a neighbor called the cops and there was no sign of abuse, but the kid is particularly gorgeous and CPS would have no problem getting the adopted right away (that means bonus money for the agency), then you might not feel good about adopting that child. But at least you'll know more than blindly taking a child out of the system. There definitely are a lot of children, especially older children, sibling groups, minority children, and children with special psychological needs, who need homes from what they've been through.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do. Infertility is a hard road, but at least these days, we can talk about it instead of how it was even 20 years ago when it was all hush-hush. I am thankful every moment of every day that we were in a position to get to have the IVF rounds it took to have out precious child, and I wish that more people could, especially when I think about how many children are conceived and born to people who don't care jack. :(

[Bella99]

Not everyone qualifies to adopt within the US, and many people are afraid of having a child that is later taken from them because the birth parents manage to regain their rights. Once rights are severed, that should be that, but that's not always the case. It's not an easy thing.

Plus sometimes people have insurance that will cover IVF but nothing to help with adoption costs.

You can say the same thing about fertile couples, you know. Why toss out the condoms if they can adopt from the foster care system. How to have a child is a very personal decision, and the way that is right for you might not be right for another, and might not even be possible for another. You may be willing to risk a birth parent sauntering back into the picture and snatching the child back with the court's blessing, and you might be able to pass all the medical screenings, but not everyone is you. You are you. Adopting from the foster system might be right for you and work for you, but not for everyone. Each situation is different. Let me tell you though, it hurts being told you're not good enough to adopt a foster child and the reason you're not good enough is the very medical that caused your infertility to begin with.

Know what else? I've heard argument for why adopting is selfish. Why not use the money you'd use on fertility treatments or adopting and instead send it to a poor family somewhere so they can keep their children and afford to raise them without turning to crime. It's been argued that adopting for a child for yourself is selfish when a big reason many people adopt or ultimately neglect their kids is because of poverty. I first heard this on NPR and nearly started screaming at the radio. Yes, there are people who believe adoption is wrong because it's selfish! Just like there are people who think fertility treatments are wrong and selfish. There are many who think having biological children instead of adopting is selfish. Of course if you adopt, you're selfish. if you say screw it and go the child-free route, someone's still going to call you selfish. Damned if you do,d amend if you don't, no way to get away from being damned.

This! We had insurance that covered a good chunk of the IVF, were not going to win the beauty contest for private adoption, and did not feel up to fostering to adopt and having a child we'd grown to love returned to parents who'd already failed them badly enough for the kids to be removed. Maybe we are selfish, but having bio parents show up trying to reclaim their child was not something we felt emotionally prepared for.

[MollySee]

I realize I am a total judgmental bitch about this, but nothing pisses me off more than the fact that there are thousands of children in foster care eligible for adoption, and folks would rather pay for either IVF or the flat out extortion fees that private adoption or foreign adoption costs.

I am infertile, so I know how hard that can be. I've mourned my not being able to have children, made peace with it. But really? Why adopt a special needs child from China when there are special needs children in the US who need parents as well? It just seems ridiculous.

I think adoption is wonderful, but people choose domestic and international adoption for different reasons. I plan on doing both. But at the same time, kids with special needs in Eastern Europe are in MUCH worse conditions than kids with special needs here. The kids in EE are institutionalized at 3 or 4 and basically left to die. I have multiple friends who have adopted kids with down syndrome or cerebral palsy who were 3,4,5,6 years old and about 12 lbs and mistreated horribly. It really really SUCKS that there are so many kids who need families.

[BlackHawk]

I realize I am a total judgmental bitch about this, but nothing pisses me off more than the fact that there are thousands of children in foster care eligible for adoption, and folks would rather pay for either IVF or the flat out extortion fees that private adoption or foreign adoption costs.

I am infertile, so I know how hard that can be. I've mourned my not being able to have children, made peace with it. But really? Why adopt a special needs child from China when there are special needs children in the US who need parents as well? It just seems ridiculous.

Because there are some states that tell people "You're a faggot and unable to raise a kid".. and thus we sit and wait.

Until then I will adopt my child through a private agency because that is the only option I have.

[polabear]

IVF is about $25k a pop, with a 33% chance of having a baby. Adoption is rarely less than twice that. IF you are approved. Foreign adoptions are always more. The wealthier fundies are lucky to have plenty of people willing to help them pay for it. It's "easier" in that they don't deny people for quite as much as US agencies, but the costs are ultimately higher and there can be a lot of bureaucratic red tape to cut through.

A round or two of IVF may result in a baby that someone can't take away because they changes their minds, making this option less. Or you might be someone who takes 10 rounds so that a few tries at adoption is less. Some couples are lucky enough to have help for one option but not the other. Some infertile couples are denied adoption because of the very condition causing the infertility. Neither is a sure thing, and infertile couples don't arrive at either option lightly, and I guarantee you that infertile people have given this a lot more thought than you ever could. Saying "for a fraction etc" really belittles what infertile couples go through. It's very very hurtful to even think that adoption is always only a fraction of the cost of IVF. It's not, and the risks of having a baby taken back are very real. Estimates vary since there is no mandate to report, but an estimated third to half of adoptions are false-starts, meaning anything from paying fees to start an adoption and it not happening in the end, to even having the child for several months or even longer and having to give the child back. For many infertile couples, the thought of having a dream fulfilled and then a child ripped away makes this a last resort.

Adoption doesn't have to cost 50k. If you adopt out of foster care in your own state, then the adoption is free. There is a decent sized adoption tax credit available too. I live near a major metro area, and if I wanted to adopt an african american baby, then the cost would be under 10k. The moms are typically on medicaid, so you don't have to pay medical or housing expenses.

While you don't have to risk the parents coming back in International adoption, you do have to worry that the adorable three year old you saw in a picture and reportedly just has a few "delays" is actually 6 years old, with a host of undiagnosed issues. And, at least in Ethiopia, there was a few orphanages with HORRIBLE child abuse problems - the older kids were abusing the younger kids. At least with foster care, if a child ends up with far more problems than you expect, you find out well before the adoption is finalized.

Worse yet, there are a lot of parents in various countries where they adopted kids in their homeland, but then they couldn't get a Visa to bring the child home. So, they were stuck with leaving the kid behind in the orphanage. Except now the kid can't get adopted by anyone, and you can't adopt in that country again.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Why adopt a special needs child from China when there are special needs children in the US who need parents as well?

The official (fundie) position regarding this seems to be: them are the communist heathenz. Needs salvation YESTERDAY.

[apple1]

...Perhaps it shows poor character...

I do think it shows poor character to temporarily falsely claim (or deny) a belief system to get what one wants. Whatever the belief system. It is intentional deception. Lack of integrity.

[Rachel333]

I do think it shows poor character to temporarily falsely claim (or deny) a belief system to get what one wants. Whatever the belief system. It is intentional deception. Lack of integrity.

Even to save a life? I would never think it's okay for anything else, but that's one of the times I think I would probably lie. Just being honest.

[Elle]

Adoption doesn't have to cost 50k. If you adopt out of foster care in your own state, then the adoption is free. There is a decent sized adoption tax credit available too. I live near a major metro area, and if I wanted to adopt an african american baby, then the cost would be under 10k. The moms are typically on medicaid, so you don't have to pay medical or housing expenses.

While you don't have to risk the parents coming back in International adoption, you do have to worry that the adorable three year old you saw in a picture and reportedly just has a few "delays" is actually 6 years old, with a host of undiagnosed issues. And, at least in Ethiopia, there was a few orphanages with HORRIBLE child abuse problems - the older kids were abusing the younger kids. At least with foster care, if a child ends up with far more problems than you expect, you find out well before the adoption is finalized.

Worse yet, there are a lot of parents in various countries where they adopted kids in their homeland, but then they couldn't get a Visa to bring the child home. So, they were stuck with leaving the kid behind in the orphanage. Except now the kid can't get adopted by anyone, and you can't adopt in that country again.

Not in all states. Don't expect any state to pay your attorney fees. That's going to be on you. Unless you do a foster-adopt, in most states you can still expect hefty fees. Generally the "free" kids are the minority children with special needs. The "less-desirable" kids get priced lower. Realistically someone who couldn't afford a full-priced child may have problems handling the expenses of a highly special needs child, even with what help the state offer.

And again, not everyone will qualify. What is so hard to understand about that? If you can qualify, consider yourself lucky. I wanted with all my heart and soul to adopt, all my life it's what I wanted to do. It devastated me to be turned down again and again and the reason given to me was the very medical condition that caused my fertility problems. Salt on a goddamned open wound. So I know first hand. An ex and I spent tens of thousands out of his trust fund trying. We had a 4000sqft beach house and I was a stay-at-home step-mom. By all accounts, perfect. Except for my medical past. Time and again we were barred. It led to our breaking up. He was against fertility treatments, but wanted more kids more than he wanted me. I lost the house, of course. He's still got it. The trust is his. He's got a couple more kids. I've got the intimate first-hand knowledge that wonderful people can be turned down for shit reasons, and all the excuses others make for why someone could adopt if they just want to bad enough isn't going to change the fact that it could be truly 100% free in every way, and there will be good people who still don't qualify through no fault of their own, and even if it was 100% free, that wouldn't make it the right choice for everyone, and it's EXTREMELY unfair to put the burden for adopting foster kids on the shoulders of the infertile.

[valsa]

I think adoption is wonderful, but people choose domestic and international adoption for different reasons. I plan on doing both. But at the same time, kids with special needs in Eastern Europe are in MUCH worse conditions than kids with special needs here. The kids in EE are institutionalized at 3 or 4 and basically left to die. I have multiple friends who have adopted kids with down syndrome or cerebral palsy who were 3,4,5,6 years old and about 12 lbs and mistreated horribly. It really really SUCKS that there are so many kids who need families.

There's a little boy in Russia who's currently breaking my heart. I occasionally look at Waiting Child websites (probably won't do that again after this) and saw a little boy who just turned 5 and has cerebral palsy (doesn't seem severe, as he could walk when someone bothered to work with him for a couple days) His profile includes "He is very emotional, sensitive and not a leader by nature and is being hurt by older and physically healthy children in the orphanage" and "He has a favorite little toy: stuffed tiger, he carries it everywhere, he kisses it, puts to sleep, worries about it", and that he's pretty much frightened all the time in the orphanage (I'm very introverted and have anxiety issues so I'm guessing I'd be the same if I lived in an orphanage) It also says he's going to be transferred to an institution in April of this year if he's not adopted. For those who don't know, being institutionalized basically means they'll shave his head and tie him to a crib for the rest of his life in a people-warehouse. Russia often treats orphans with physical handicaps, like this boy, the same way they do people with profound mental disabilities (not that this treatment isn't horrific for people with severe mental disabilities, just that they offer absolutely no mental stimulation for the people without mental disabilities) I wouldn't treat an animal the way this boy is going to spend the rest of his life.

ETA: My heartbreak for this little boy aside, whatever you may feel about the failings of the U.S. foster care system, it's almost always better than reality for this boy and others like him in Eastern Europe.

[Elle]

There's a little boy in Russia who's currently breaking my heart. I occasionally look at Waiting Child websites (probably won't do that again after this) and saw a little boy who just turned 5 and has cerebral palsy (doesn't seem severe, as he could walk when someone bothered to work with him for a couple days) His profile includes "He is very emotional, sensitive and not a leader by nature and is being hurt by older and physically healthy children in the orphanage" and "He has a favorite little toy: stuffed tiger, he carries it everywhere, he kisses it, puts to sleep, worries about it", and that he's pretty much frightened all the time in the orphanage (I'm very introverted and have anxiety issues so I'm guessing I'd be the same if I lived in an orphanage) It also says he's going to be transferred to an institution in April of this year if he's not adopted. For those who don't know, being institutionalized basically means they'll shave his head and tie him to a crib for the rest of his life in a people-warehouse. Russia often treats orphans with physical handicaps, like this boy, the same way they do people with profound mental disabilities (not that this treatment isn't horrific for people with severe mental disabilities, just that they offer absolutely no mental stimulation for the people without mental disabilities) I wouldn't treat an animal the way this boy is going to spend the rest of his life.

ETA: My heartbreak for this little boy aside, whatever you may feel about the failings of the U.S. foster care system, it's almost always better than reality for this boy and others like him in Eastern Europe.

I have a friend who was born in Russia as a twin. When he was a toddler, his mother emigrated, kids in tow, to Canada. I met them in the US. One evening she and I got to talking and she told me how, when her twins were born, one didn't make it, and there was no food in the hospital. Some of her friends brought her something to eat, and these staff pressured her about giving up her remaining twin son. If a twin died, it must have been something she did and she wouldn't be able to afford the other. She resisted and fought with all her might, and kept her son. The look in her eyes when she was talking about this was awful. She said an unknown truth about adoptions from Russia is most aren't orphans, many are children whose parents can't afford their needs, and many were twins whose sibling died and whose mothers were pressured into giving them up, and she said most kids in orphanages would be better off euthanized like dogs than to have death extended like orphanage life is. Adopting healthy babies to rich people in the west can bring in a lot of money for the adoption agencies, and government officials aren't above taking bribes to allow it to happen. She said it's a way the government there keeps control over the people. She was so haunted talking about it.

The catch-22 here is I don't know if many people are okay with this sort of evil vile crap going on and want to support it by participating, but it's hard doing nothing. It's a case where trying to help the kids created the "need" which furthers the problem. Russia isn't the only country this happens in. I've mentioned Madonna fighting a child's father for custody of the child, and winning. No shame in taking a child from her living father who desperately wanted her. How often does it happen that no one knows about?

Adoption is a business, and children are a commodity. It sucks. It sucks too that it's so hard for good people who want to adopt a child who has no family to get to adopt. My husband and I would adopt in a heartbeat any child of any age who was dropped on our doorstep today. But nooooooo, I had medical issues, so I'm only good enough to be the mother to children I make with my own body. I am ANGRY at how FUCKED UP the system is, keeping kids from families who want them and are suitable, making it hard for many good parents who adopt if not impossible, making it so easy for bioparents to pop back up months or even years later and snatch the kid away (the biggest driving force behind Americans going overseas since foreign adoptions can't be undone by bioparents)...

Overhaul the ruddy system (and mandate they all be NON-PROFIT, and not SusanG Komen non-profit where the leaders are pulling in half a mill a year) and I'll bet the number of adoptions would go up and the number of biological children would go down. I will never tell my daughter this, but if I could have adopted, I wouldn't have had her. One fewer child conceived and born, one more child needing a home would have had one.

[Alecto]

Because there are some states that tell people "You're a faggot and unable to raise a kid".. and thus we sit and wait.

Until then I will adopt my child through a private agency because that is the only option I have.

This I understand completely. Though, sadly, lots of gay and lesbian couples can't even adopt privately in all states.

I just have a hard time watching children languish in foster care with no families while folks go after their "Perfect white and/or foreign infant"

[valsa]

I have a friend who was born in Russia as a twin. When he was a toddler, his mother emigrated, kids in tow, to Canada. I met them in the US. One evening she and I got to talking and she told me how, when her twins were born, one didn't make it, and there was no food in the hospital. Some of her friends brought her something to eat, and these staff pressured her about giving up her remaining twin son. If a twin died, it must have been something she did and she wouldn't be able to afford the other. She resisted and fought with all her might, and kept her son. The look in her eyes when she was talking about this was awful. She said an unknown truth about adoptions from Russia is most aren't orphans, many are children whose parents can't afford their needs, and many were twins whose sibling died and whose mothers were pressured into giving them up, and she said most kids in orphanages would be better off euthanized like dogs than to have death extended like orphanage life is. Adopting healthy babies to rich people in the west can bring in a lot of money for the adoption agencies, and government officials aren't above taking bribes to allow it to happen. She said it's a way the government there keeps control over the people. She was so haunted talking about it.

The catch-22 here is I don't know if many people are okay with this sort of evil vile crap going on and want to support it by participating, but it's hard doing nothing. It's a case where trying to help the kids created the "need" which furthers the problem. Russia isn't the only country this happens in. I've mentioned Madonna fighting a child's father for custody of the child, and winning. No shame in taking a child from her living father who desperately wanted her. How often does it happen that no one knows about?

Adoption is a business, and children are a commodity. It sucks. It sucks too that it's so hard for good people who want to adopt a child who has no family to get to adopt. My husband and I would adopt in a heartbeat any child of any age who was dropped on our doorstep today. But nooooooo, I had medical issues, so I'm only good enough to be the mother to children I make with my own body. I am ANGRY at how FUCKED UP the system is, keeping kids from families who want them and are suitable, making it hard for many good parents who adopt if not impossible, making it so easy for bioparents to pop back up months or even years later and snatch the kid away (the biggest driving force behind Americans going overseas since foreign adoptions can't be undone by bioparents)...

Overhaul the ruddy system (and mandate they all be NON-PROFIT, and not SusanG Komen non-profit where the leaders are pulling in half a mill a year) and I'll bet the number of adoptions would go up and the number of biological children would go down. I will never tell my daughter this, but if I could have adopted, I wouldn't have had her. One fewer child conceived and born, one more child needing a home would have had one.

I would love it if adoption agencies had to be non-profits. And I do realize that not a lot of "orphans" in Russia are true orphans. IIRC, there is a stipulation that children in orphanages can only be released for international adoption if they haven't had contact with their birth family for a while (I think it’s one year), though I'm not sure if that rule is strictly followed everywhere. Some parents in Russia cannot afford their children (disabled or not), so they'll put them in an orphanage but visit them daily, weekly, or monthly (depending on how close they live to the orphanage) Those children aren't eligible for adoption.

I read a sad story of a couple who were adopting a little boy from Russia and were actually in the country to finalize the adoption when the boy’s grandfather, who didn’t want to adoption to happen but also wasn’t willing to care for the boy himself, visited the boy (first time the child had been visited since being put in the orphanage) and so set the one-year clock back to zero. Luckily for the little boy, the couple stuck it out and succeeded in adopting him two years later (his grandfather never visited again after the initial visit that interrupted the adoption) but it did subject the boy to two more years in the orphanage that could have been spent with the loving family.

[apple1]

Even to save a life? I would never think it's okay for anything else, but that's one of the times I think I would probably lie. Just being honest.

Not to adopt. JMO.

[emmiedahl]

Only Muslims can adopt from Morocco? It just hit me: Muslims don't believe in adoption.

[valsa]

Only Muslims can adopt from Morocco? It just hit me: Muslims don't believe in adoption.

In Morocco, you're technically only assigned guardianship (called "kafalah", I think) Then you have to legally adopt the child back in the U.S.

[Rachel333]

Not to adopt. JMO.

Well I completely agree there. I didn't mean to give the impression that I think it would be okay to lie about being Muslim so you could adopt a child, because I would be fairly horrified if someone did that.

[emmiedahl]

In Morocco, you're technically only assigned guardianship (called "kafalah", I think) Then you have to legally adopt the child back in the U.S.

I figured it was something like that. But wouldn't they be then breaking Islamic law? I guess Muslims are allowed to break religious law just like the rest of us, it just interested me. Thanks for the info, I was looking it up on Muslim info sites and all I could find regarding adoption was explanations for the prohibition.

[valsa]

I figured it was something like that. But wouldn't they be then breaking Islamic law? I guess Muslims are allowed to break religious law just like the rest of us, it just interested me. Thanks for the info, I was looking it up on Muslim info sites and all I could find regarding adoption was explanations for the prohibition.

Granted, I only know basic info on this topic but I think they get around it because, technically, adoption itself isn't prohibited, just certain behaviors within adoption (changing the child's name, cutting the child off from his or her birth parents) I suppose you could skirt around it by not changing the child's name and offering to help the child find their birth parents later on or something. I know Muslims have round-abouts for other things that are prohibited in Islam, such as taking out loans for cars or homes, so they have probably found a loophole that makes the adoption okay. Or they could, like you said, ignore it like lots of religious people ignore rules they don't like.