The "Weird Socialization" of public schools

[FlorenceHamilton]

I went to public school and sent my children to public school. It is indeed a unique environment. There are clearly issues with what goes on in schools where children are concentrated together my age and by some extent, by socioeconomic similarity. I think the latter issue is changing with a changing demographic in America. (You know, the demographic that there are now more and more people of various hues living in YOUR neighborhood. These are the people that the far right do not not consider worthy of being American.) The former issue is real and has had both positive and negative effects upon the last three generations.

Clearly, other countries who are educating their children nationally are doing better than we are. The children from many countries are ahead of ours in Math, Science, Reading and general knowledge. We do need to study technics that work better and adapt them to an American version. Let us not throw the baby our with the bathwater. I was in a weird situation in high school. I ended up in some classes with the year ahead of me and others with the year behind me. We DO need to remove the age stigma and put kids into the classes they need. Obviously, this is not going to make the age distribution very wide...a year or two one way or the other, but it will make education based upon mastery rather than chronology.

I have discussed this before (Although I was very misunderstood). The best education for children has elements of public, private and parental input. We need to create an environment where parents are given Kudos at work for taking time t educate their children. Right now, we get demerits at work for taking time to participate in our children's lives. Children are the workforce of the future. Business should also be given incentives to encourage parents to be a part of the classroom and should be a part of the learning experience for children as well.

One of my big problems with the far Right Wing is that they seem to feel that identifying a problem is enough reason to drop all the progress and go back to a method that already failed in the past, but is too far back to actually remember accurately.

Yes, we need to do better. No, we do not need to throw everything away and go back to a time that so many American children had no options at all because they did not come from privileged or motivated families. We still need a public education that will teach kids whose families cannot do so adequately.

[Wolfie]

Clearly, other countries who are educating their children nationally are doing better than we are. The children from many countries are ahead of ours in Math, Science, Reading and general knowledge.

THIS IS FALSE.

Other countries do not test special ed students, students who can not understand the language that they are being taught in, and also move students out into other tracks if they are not the type to be college bound. The results we see are from the students who are placed in the college tracks. There is a reason why many foreign students attend American colleges- they are told in their home countries that they aren't the college type.

Do you really want the school system to decide if your child is going to go to college or not? I do think that there needs to be more vocational education in our high schools, but I think it should be the child's choice, not the school systems.

[PBrooke]

I did feel very age-segregated in school. In junior high, you could get in trouble for, say, using the eighth grade stairs if you weren't an eighth grader. High school was better in that sense, because the building was divided by subject rather than grade, and many classes had people from at least two different grades. But socially, you didn't speak to anyone who wasn't in your grade. I had choir friends who went to by high school but were a year above or below me, and at choir we could be best friends, but if we passed each other in the hall at school, we didn't even acknowledge each other. I always thought it was stupid. I don't blame the school or the school system for that, though, since I assume it was something we imposed on ourselves, for whatever reason.

In many middle schools, the whole separate entrances/stairwells/hallways thing is typically done for the younger students' safety, particularly if the school has a history of fighting or violence. An eleven-year-old can be, well, pretty small, and some 13-or-14-year-olds can be pretty darn big. I'm not saying students shouldn't be able to control themselves, but I've seen a few schools that were the reason rules like this were implemented, and I can understand the reasoning behind it.

I actually know a few families whose kids went to public elementary school, and probably will attend public high school, but the parents are homeschooling them through middle school. While personally I wasn't teased as much in middle school as elementary school, it certainly can be a rough time and I could see, if you knew your kid would have a rough time of it, the desire to pull them out for those few years.

[TouchMeFall21]

My husband went to one of the most respected Catholic high schools in the country--a number of well-known right-wing personalities are alums. He spent his formative teen years in an all-male environment; any sort of individuality was heavily regulated out of them--from the way they dressed, to how they were permitted to grow facial hair. Is THAT normal socialization?

I went to a very small private Jewish school for my early years of elementary school. I was in a class with seven other students. When I switched to public school (we moved to better school district), I was far ahead of my peers academically (although I partially attribute that to my parents, and the supplementary education I was getting outside of the classroom), but I swear it took my at least four years to catch up in terms of social maturity--I had no clue how to interact with a wide range of people.

Honestly, though, I think this is all beside the point--my parents, and my husband's parents, had the luxury of choice--they could afford to send us to private school. Homeschooling is also a luxury of choice--many families cannot do without a second income, that would make quality homeschooling all but impossible. If public schools are "weird", then let's have a meaningful (not reactionary) dialogue about reform. Writing them off is not an option.

[TaylorMaid]

And Santorum implying public schools are like 'the old factory model'. And 'people are stuck in classrooms all day' - well, that's ridiculous. That may happen in some schools, however, my experiences have shown me that concept is completely false. Schools have changed, and are continuing to change all the time. In fact, you might say they've been going through an evolutionary process for quite some time.

There's no way Santorum could be convinced of that. Evolution= teh debil.

[Elle]

Wolfie, you don't actually think that American high schools are graduating a high number of graduates with educations that match the 12th grade? In states with exit exams, they are set at a tenth grade level. In states without it, students are graduated who can read and do math only at a 4th grade level, sometimes lower, because our culture places so much emphasis on self-esteem that kids are rarely held back anymore because they might be embarrassed. So to prevent embarrassment, they're set up to fail in the adult world and then are told that it's okay to not know how to do basic jobs, the employer just needs to make exceptions.

Special ed students rarely have to take the same standardized tests everyone else does. A child with Down Syndrome in a state with exit exams will not be denies a 12th grade diploma for an inability to pass the exam. Im America, it's considered discrimination to expect disabled kids to do the same exams other kids have to take. When they take exams, usually they are special exams with no time limits and help allowed. In my high school, the special ed students went on field trips those days, and when some students raised a fuss, we were informed that special ed students can not be made to take the typical standardized exams. If students all were treated the same in terms of exams, few special ed students would receive diplomas. My high school mandates two years of a foreign language to graduate. You don't think they expected the same of the special ed students, do you?

Many employers are starting to see an associates degree as the new equivalent to a high school diploma. Many colleges have noted a rising problem in kids enrolling, but having to take remedial courses for a semester or two just to get up to snuff enough to take the classes that are required for an associates. Look at the writing of many teenagers today and tell me if that would have been acceptable when you were in high school. Many of those teens with horrible spelling and no understanding of punctuation don't KNOW how to do it correctly. When you and I were in school, we wouldn't have passed our English classes or high school without knowing how to spell simple words.

A lot of American students attend universities overseas feeling the education is better. Colleges overseas tend to be a lot tougher. A student who can cut it here can't necessarily cut it overseas. A student from a foreign country might not be able to keep up with the classes at universities in their home states (if they struggle in their classes prior to graduation and the universities will be tougher, that's good indication that the student isn't college-material for the colleges in that country), but have no problem in American colleges, especially with the number of remedial classes almost every college offers.

[emmiedahl]

Elle, American universities are generally considered among the best in the world, both by studies and actual people. I don't know where you get some of your opinions, but I suspect that actual fact ain't it.

[FlorenceHamilton]

The education of educationally atypical children remains a problem all over the world. I have done a bit of online research on the topic after Wolfie brought it to my attention . It seems that this problem spans the globe with some countries doing better than others. I did read an interesting article about the way that the communities in Japan are far more accepting and accomodating than communities are here in the states. They also tend to not see the value of a person in terms of formal education, but rather in how they contribute in their own way.

It turns out that not all people are made to go to University for academic achievements. I am not against the idea of testing to help young people choose a path that is likely to be successful and happy for them. That said, motivation is a big factor and students who do not test well need not give up dreams of academia. They do need the knowledge that this will be a difficult path for them. I happen to be academic. I have always wanted to be able to sing. I have worked hard at it and can now stay in tune most of the time. But I do not have the talent to make it a career. We need to stop stigmatizing people who are talented in non-academic areas.

American Universities in general provide more opportunity for financial success. I do not know whether they are better than Universities in other countries. That said, I am pretty impressed with folks i know who studied at Universities in many countries. Besides, ultimately, all kids deserve every possible chance to succeed and be happy. That is all over the world. We need to study who is getting what things right and emulate the things that are working better elsewhere. And I would hope that other countries study what we are doing well and use it to help their own people.

[TaylorMaid]

American universities may be considered some of the best in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that many students entering them are woefully unprepared. I work for a public university and can't tell you how often I hear about the lack of writing and spelling skills. Or the number of students who are outright mis-educated when it comes to science. I don't know if this is due to the "self esteem" culture, or over testing, or truly lax educational standards. I suspect it is a combination of all three.

In the immortal words of a previous leader of the free world: "Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"

[emmiedahl]

I know that a lot of students enter college unprepared. I just felt the need to call bullshit on obvious bullshit regarding American universities being inferior.

[duchess0592]

In my college humanities class my teacher wanted us to fill out chapter review questions in complete sentences so she could meet the writing requirement without assigning a ton of essays. When we turned in our questions and she looked over them,only I and one other student had written in complete sentences. This has no bearing on public, private or home school because I have no idea where my classmates went to high school but it does say something about American schooling in general when only 2 in 27 college students know how to write a complete sentence. :o

[TaylorMaid]

In my college humanities class my teacher wanted us to fill out chapter review questions in complete sentences so she could meet the writing requirement without assigning a ton of essays. When we turned in our questions and she looked over them,only I and one other student had written in complete sentences. This has no bearing on public, private or home school because I have no idea where my classmates went to high school but it does say something about American schooling in general when only 2 in 27 college students know how to write a complete sentence. :o

Ouch. And how did the Proff handle that?

[duchess0592]

she checked our work one at a time so she had to explain over and over again that they had to write in complete sentences, she had told us on the first day of class that if we did not write complete sentences she would give us extra essays because we have to write a certain number of words to meet a state requirement.

[finleeport]

What is it that fundies and people like Frothy have against public schools?

I was bullied once at my elementary school, a lot, even by my own teacher, but I also made good friends and eventually learned to stick up for myself. I don't mind public schooling but we do have to fix the problem of bullying.

[TaylorMaid]

she checked our work one at a time so she had to explain over and over again that they had to write in complete sentences, she had told us on the first day of class that if we did not write complete sentences she would give us extra essays because we have to write a certain number of words to meet a state requirement.

So despite a clear statement of expectations, they got a second chance? Or did she actually give extra essays?

[duchess0592]

So despite a clear statement of expectations, they got a second chance? Or did she actually give extra essays?

I remembered to quote :)

they got a second chance, not sure if the class improved because she stopped telling us if we did good or bad in front of everyone

[FlorenceHamilton]

Ouch. And how did the Proff handle that?

"Only one other student and I..." would be the correct grammar. I would certainly require not only complete sentences. but proper grammar in a college class. Just saying. :whistle:

[Elle]

Emmie, Texas A&M agrees with the decline in educational quality.

http://www.tamupress.com/product/Americ ... e,923.aspx

Our TOP tier universities are excellent. However those top-tier schools are within the realm of possibility for the vast majority of students, even though with top grades.

I've read many many articles on rankings and how the standings are overall unreliable. Generally the rules used to determine countries with the best universities are how many schools are in the world's top 100 (the criteria themselves being questionable), which isn't a reliable indicator as some countries have far more universities than others and uses straight numbers rather than percentage of any given country's universities that made the ranking (if a country has two universities and both make in in the top 100, and another country has 500 universities and 36 make it, which country has higher quality education? - depends on which way you look at it), and accessibility.

Our TOP universities are the ones attracting foreign students, not just any college, and the top universities are glad to take those students at a higher tuition rate, and those students like how a degree from a US university makes it a hell of a lot easier to stay here after graduation, as well as how many qualify for student aid and more grants, and that a major doesn't have to be declared for a couple years. But Harvard and Yale aren't realistic goals for many US students. If you only look at the top tier schools, then the US has more of them than any other country. But look beyond those schools at the colleges and universities most Americans will get to go to. Few of us will ever have the chance at those top schools, and so have to settle for local colleges catering to students needing remedial classes with the number of accelerated classes being very few and difficult to get into simply due to fewer spaces, while there are many remedial classes.

The US is fairly notorious for the number of for-profit colleges that will help anyone get into deep deep debt they'll never crawl out of for a degree of dubious or no value. "Higher" education here is accessible if you look at it in terms of how easy it is to get into debt, but we've also got a crisis where people are graduating with degrees that did not prepare them for the real world in their choses career, or with a far heavier debt load than their chosen career field would possibly be expected to pay for. Our top universities are generally very good though, and very very tough, with a very high expectation of top-notch academics, but the same can't be said for the majority of our schools, especially with so many being for-profit, and to lure students, it helps to boast a high graduation rate even if that means grading everything on a curve to get more students up to a D, or dumbing down the curriculum so that everyone can pass. One of my dearest friends is going to University of Phoenix for a masters in social work and is already six figures in debt, and she's said repeatedly that it's so easy, she expected it to be hard to get a masters, and she likes how the instruction is mostly reading and not tons of reports. She expects to make in the upper five figures when she's out because of what the recruiter said, but the reality is she will sink. Not all our colleges and universities are wonderful, and foreign students aren't coming her to go to Phoenix or Wyocom or Carington. They are coming here to go to the ones used in the studies, not the ones most Americans will get to go to.

[Elle]

"Only one other student and I..." would be the correct grammar. I would certainly require not only complete sentences. but proper grammar in a college class. Just saying. :whistle:

Florence, you might want to check that punctuation you have between "sentences" and "but." ;)

[duchess0592]

"Only one other student and I..." would be the correct grammar. I would certainly require not only complete sentences. but proper grammar in a college class. Just saying. :whistle:

Thanks for that. I put it in word grammer check and that is what came up but I never know which one it is. It really annoys me as I am somthing of a grammer nut. I will redo facebook posts if I make a mistake.

[Elle]

In my college humanities class my teacher wanted us to fill out chapter review questions in complete sentences so she could meet the writing requirement without assigning a ton of essays. When we turned in our questions and she looked over them,only I and one other student had written in complete sentences. This has no bearing on public, private or home school because I have no idea where my classmates went to high school but it does say something about American schooling in general when only 2 in 27 college students know how to write a complete sentence. :o

This is why an associates degree is considered to be the new high school diploma, and it's not helping matters that, rather than failing students, they're given chances to do their work over. Our society is one that says that getting an F in school will completely destroy self-esteem. So the trade-off to unhealthily high self-esteem is people who either don't listen or just don't know they're doing wrong, and sometimes students who don't care since they'll pass anyway. Our top universities don't have to deal with this, the universities used in the worldwide rankings that make the US look at the top of the game. But the schools many of us get to go to are going to be full of people who don't understand what it means to write in full sentences. I dropped out of an English class that was supposed to be advanced after two weeks before I was too annoyed at how, after our intro essays, the prof had to spend three classes going over the most basic of basics, and, frankly, it was a waste of my time. I've got a pet peeve about ending sentences with prepositions (though will do so to not sound uppity), so spending three hours a week listening to instruction on how the first letter of a sentence is to be capitalized was really a waste of my time and money.

[emmiedahl]

Emmie, Texas A&M agrees with the decline in educational quality.

http://www.tamupress.com/product/Americ ... e,923.aspx

Our TOP tier universities are excellent. However those top-tier schools are within the realm of possibility for the vast majority of students, even though with top grades.

I guess that is why I had to compete with students from all over the world to get into a science major at my lowly public university. Or why UW has to cap their international students for certain majors. Even second and third rate universities have plenty of international students who will be going home to job offers because an American degree is so "awful".

[Elle]

Emmie, look at how many Americans with degrees are working at McDonald's and how many employers are having to hire foreign workers because of the lack of qualified American candidates. A student from a high school that enforces minimum standards for graduation at the grade level from which the student is graduating rather than passing kids jut for showing up will get more out of even our lower public universities than students from many of our high schools where they are passed out of fear of being sued, and when they return to countries where a degree from anywhere is prestigious, then yes, they will have tons of job offers. Here in the US, having a degree isn't helping many people. It's seen as semi-necessary, but yet we still have an unfathomable number of graduates working entry-level jobs in retain and fast food, and still many more who can't find any job at all, finding it's worked against them to not have job history for the time they were in school. Some students are helped greatly because of the major they chose, many others are struggling and have no idea if they will realistically ever get their loans paid off.

[emmyfair]

Emmie, look at how many Americans with degrees are working at McDonald's and how many employers are having to hire foreign workers because of the lack of qualified American candidates. A student from a high school that enforces minimum standards for graduation at the grade level from which the student is graduating rather than passing kids jut for showing up will get more out of even our lower public universities than students from many of our high schools where they are passed out of fear of being sued, and when they return to countries where a degree from anywhere is prestigious, then yes, they will have tons of job offers. Here in the US, having a degree isn't helping many people. It's seen as semi-necessary, but yet we still have an unfathomable number of graduates working entry-level jobs in retain and fast food, and still many more who can't find any job at all, finding it's worked against them to not have job history for the time they were in school. Some students are helped greatly because of the major they chose, many others are struggling and have no idea if they will realistically ever get their loans paid off.

Can we have some statistics to back this up please?

[Bookworm89]

I personally hated high school because no matter how horribly most of the class did, the teacher still HAD to pass most of them. I found school to be a joke afterwhile, I could do my personal bare minimum of effort and make an A because I was at least trying. Most of the time I did work hard on an assignment because I don't like turning in an assignment that I didn't put 70% effort into.

While the socilization aspect of public school is not odd it was not something I enjoyed. I related well to my teachers over my peers, but I know many of other students were the exact opposite. I think it depends on individual personalities. Some students will flurish in a public school/private school/homeschool enviroment and turn out to be productive (not fundy scary ;) ) citizens. But public school seems to work for the majority at this time, both for parents and students.

Edited for a little grammer mistakes that I found (fully expect there are more in the comment)