The "Weird Socialization" of public schools

[TouchMeFall21]

From Meet the Press...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski ... on-childre

Per Frothy's 2005 book, It Takes a Family...

It's amazing that so many kids turn out to be fairly normal, considering the weird socialization they get in public schools. In a home school, by contrast, children interact in a rich and complex way with adults and children of other ages all the time.

:doh:

[Whydoyouask]

That would be... open mouth- insert foot. Or... use pen to create space for foot.

I'm a homeschooler who takes offense to his statements.

[figuring it out]

I actually agree here, just a little bit. My kids attend public school and there are some weird things that have come up that they learned to do there. For example, during bully prevention week, my daughter's teacher read a story about how kids might be bullied for wearing different clothing. I like to think the point was that kids should feel free to wear whatever they want. Instead my daughter and her little buddies came home from school and weeded their closets of anything but the most unimaginative and least individual clothes. My daughter now refuses to wear some of her formerly favorite clothes adn sticks to blah for fear of being bullied. Her friends parents report similar responses from their daughters. There are other pack mentalities that come out of kids in institutional school settings and lots of pressure to please others no matter how ridiculous the lengths one must to do so. Kids can also learn to distrust information that doesn't come from their authorities at school. But I'm a hippy at heart and kind of don't like too many large scale homogenizing instituations. Course, Ricky and I differ greatly as too what we consider healthy and good socialization. I'm all for meeting and spending time with people of all ages and races and AND belief systems.

[desertvixen]

His argument is based on his feeling that having children segregated into age groups is "weird" and unrealistic.

He also makes very brief reference to the issue with the cyberschool - apparently "the increasingly uncivil world of partisan politics extended its venom into" his home and kids' education. Oh, how venomous those silly people who are who want people to follow the rules...

He also had a howler in his section on abortion where he talks about how liberals lack facts in the abortion debate and resort to emotional appeals, and then later accuses liberals of being uncivil in debates when they're losing and just shouting people down... oh, if he only had a mirror...

[Witsec7]

I wish very bad things would happen to Frothy. Its a behavior I avoid, but in his case I do make an exception.

[duchess0592]

Agreed, although I take issue with people who say homeschoolers are unsocialized geeks who never leave the house I have friends who go to public school that are quite normal and socially adjusted. However I do believe that interacting with different ages groups helped me learn better as a homeschooler. That is my opinion think of me what you will.

[valsa]

I actually agree here, just a little bit. My kids attend public school and there are some weird things that have come up that they learned to do there. For example, during bully prevention week, my daughter's teacher read a story about how kids might be bullied for wearing different clothing. I like to think the point was that kids should feel free to wear whatever they want. Instead my daughter and her little buddies came home from school and weeded their closets of anything but the most unimaginative and least individual clothes. My daughter now refuses to wear some of her formerly favorite clothes adn sticks to blah for fear of being bullied. Her friends parents report similar responses from their daughters. There are other pack mentalities that come out of kids in institutional school settings and lots of pressure to please others no matter how ridiculous the lengths one must to do so. Kids can also learn to distrust information that doesn't come from their authorities at school. But I'm a hippy at heart and kind of don't like too many large scale homogenizing instituations. Course, Ricky and I differ greatly as too what we consider healthy and good socialization. I'm all for meeting and spending time with people of all ages and races and AND belief systems.

How old are your kids? I can't imagine anyone over 7 reacting that way. And that's assuming that the clothing situation was even caused by the anti-bullying speech and not just the fact that kids change what they like to wear at a drop of a hat AND that peer pressure at school can lead them to refuse wearing anything unusual.

Did you try to explain to her that they were only using different clothing as an example because using real characteristics that lead to bullying (being fat, wearing glasses, being too tall or too short, etc) would put those kids on the spot?

[Austin]

This jerk is such a weirdo I wouldn't trust him to know weird from typical.

No way I'm treading into the homeschool vs public school argument. It's a no-win, like vaccinations, peanut butter, co-sleeping, etc. And I don't even think that's the point with what this asshole said.

[doggie]

I wish very bad things would happen to Frothy. Its a behavior I avoid, but in his case I do make an exception.

Come on now He is

hateful

a bigot

a homophobic

racist

hates the poor

hates non Catholics

is ignorant

is a asshole

a dick.

but those are his good points.

[figuring it out]

My kids range from 1st to 5th grade. The same story was used in all three classes. My oldest is oblivious to such stuff. My third grader is the one who lost her originality. If course, there are some seriously cliqueish mean girls in her grade at school. My first grader thought the whole was a waste. But she pretty much hates all aspects of school. We've had number of funny issues come up because of school. My first grader came home and announced she was a lesbian because she would rather play hopscotch with the girls instead of basketball with the boys. It came up from the same week on antibullying training. Actually, I appreciate some of the blundering attempts of the school because they lead to many intersting dinner table adn family discussions. I let my daughter know that her teacher didn't explain being a lesbian quite properly. Lesbians aren't girls that would rather play with girls on the playground. One is not a lesbian just because one likes to play with girls. If she discovers she is a lesbian it will be because she prefers women as relationship partners instead of men. In a proud moment for me, my daughter said, "Why on earth would anyone bully someone for that? Sheesh. Bully week sucks"

[AudreyE]

Okay, I homeschool my son, because he is autistic and needs extra help, but I say this in all earnestness: there is no such thing as "weird" socialization until you start talking about small groups segregating themselves from a broader influence. Public school socializes kids perfectly for life in American society, which is kinda weird by all accounts.

For example, being a part of society means I have to put up with dumb fucks like Frothy and his followers. If I hide from them in my house and pretend they don't exist, then that is weird.

[Wolfie]

He wants to get rid of public schooling too.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/1 ... ia=siderec

[emmiedahl]

School socialization is unusual. You won't find anything like it outside of a nursing home--segregated by age, income (because of district lines) etc. Fundie homeschooling also has a weird socialization, only people within your family and your family's social group. Let's face it, unless you are the child of some kick-ass homeschooler like clibbyjo, you got weird socialization. Which means it is not weird at all!

My kids love school! Sure, they need to learn to deal with people who are not exactly their age, that is why they have parents, extracurricular activities and eight siblings.

Is my daughter weird that she will not wear a comic book shirt to school because someone called it "lame"? I thought that was par for fourth grade. But she is quite the fashionista, so she does not take well to having her garments questioned.

[Wolfie]

School socialization is unusual. You won't find anything like it outside of a nursing home--segregated by age, income (because of district lines) etc. Fundie homeschooling also has a weird socialization, only people within your family and your family's social group. Let's face it, unless you are the child of some kick-ass homeschooler like clibbyjo, you got weird socialization. Which means it is not weird at all!

So when you go to work you're not surrounded by like people? I'm not too worried about the age thing, as at recess you hang out with the other grades, and in any case, even though there are immature adults, mental development does kind of plateau at some point.

I don't see much income segregation once you reach middle and high school, and I see a lot less of it in small towns than in big towns- if anything the homeschool co-ops tend to be much more segregated by what lifestyles the parents are leading, and tend to be mostly middle class.

But yeah, what is "normal" socialization? It is pretty individual to each childhood.

[Guest Anonymous]

What a jackass! He's pulling this shit out of his ass!

[PBrooke]

My kids range from 1st to 5th grade. The same story was used in all three classes. My oldest is oblivious to such stuff. My third grader is the one who lost her originality. If course, there are some seriously cliqueish mean girls in her grade at school. My first grader thought the whole was a waste. But she pretty much hates all aspects of school. We've had number of funny issues come up because of school. My first grader came home and announced she was a lesbian because she would rather play hopscotch with the girls instead of basketball with the boys. It came up from the same week on antibullying training. Actually, I appreciate some of the blundering attempts of the school because they lead to many intersting dinner table adn family discussions. I let my daughter know that her teacher didn't explain being a lesbian quite properly. Lesbians aren't girls that would rather play with girls on the playground. One is not a lesbian just because one likes to play with girls. If she discovers she is a lesbian it will be because she prefers women as relationship partners instead of men. In a proud moment for me, my daughter said, "Why on earth would anyone bully someone for that? Sheesh. Bully week sucks"

I know people usually talk about bullying as something that happens in middle or high school, but personally I was teased the most, and most cruelly, in elementary school, in the third and fourth grades. I don't know what it is about that age. In middle school it gets more complicated - you see more of the "mean girls" backhanded compliment sort of stuff - but I think in elementary school the kids are too young to really realize just how cruel they can be. So at least your school is trying to promote awareness early, bumbling though it may be. And in a sense, public school works BECAUSE they have to think of everyone, and thus the kids get introduced to all sorts of thinking, even the stuff that doesn't particularly concern them at the moment. As an example, maybe a child might not personally know anyone with a disability, but they've been introduced to the concept enough in school that by the time they see someone who does, they try to behave sensitively. Somehow I just don't see that happening in fundie "I am the center of the universe" homeskool.

Yeah, I'm totally rambling and off the point. While I'm at it, doggie, your post made me lol.

[PBrooke]

So when you go to work you're not surrounded by like people? I'm not too worried about the age thing, as at recess you hang out with the other grades, and in any case, even though there are immature adults, mental development does kind of plateau at some point.

I don't see much income segregation once you reach middle and high school, and I see a lot less of it in small towns than in big towns- if anything the homeschool co-ops tend to be much more segregated by what lifestyles the parents are leading, and tend to be mostly middle class.

But yeah, what is "normal" socialization? It is pretty individual to each childhood.

Emmie isn't saying it's wrong. But it is different - I vaguely recall learning in school (in AP US history in public school) that the hippie movement was helped in large part because it was the first time that so many kids were in college - all young peers, living together, promoting discussion, etc.

[GeoBQn]

He wants to get rid of public schooling too.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/1 ... ia=siderec

My dad likes to joke that he's just to the right of Attila the Hun, but as someone who taught public school for 34 years, I think this will definitely turn him away for voting for Santorum in anything.

So Santorum wants the only educational options to be homeschooling, schools run by for-profit companies, and parochial schools? Is he still in the lead?

[emmiedahl]

So when you go to work you're not surrounded by like people? I'm not too worried about the age thing, as at recess you hang out with the other grades, and in any case, even though there are immature adults, mental development does kind of plateau at some point.

I don't see much income segregation once you reach middle and high school, and I see a lot less of it in small towns than in big towns- if anything the homeschool co-ops tend to be much more segregated by what lifestyles the parents are leading, and tend to be mostly middle class.

But yeah, what is "normal" socialization? It is pretty individual to each childhood.

Yes, but I am not surrounded by people of my precise age, from my neighborhood and income level. I am not picking on public school. But it is odd in the long-term context of one's life. I think it is fine, my kids go to school and are flourishing in the rather narrow context.

[bananacat]

I never felt segregated during school. I had plenty of friends in the grades below and above me. We also had mentoring programs where older grades would pair up with younger grades to do fun activities together. I also interacted with plenty of adults because the teachers are adults. Chorus and other extracurriculars were open to most grades. There were also several different ages within one grade because of being held back, starting late, repeating kindergarten, and occasionally skipping a grade. By high school this was more pronounced because we took classes whenever we had the prerequisites. In my Spanish class I was usually one or two grades below most of the other students, and I took plenty of classes that were mostly seniors while I was still a junior.

But here's the most important part. I didn't spend my entire life in school. I had friends of all ages on evenings, weekends, and summers. I had all kinds of friends in my neighborhood. And when I was a teenager, I even had good friends that were adults. I never felt like I had to stick to just one type of friends. I worked as a teenager, with other adults around. I was a substitute for a home daycare and my "boss" became good friends with me (she was already friends with my mom). Sometimes we'd even do things together with her, me, and my mom. I went to public school and at most I spent several hours a day with only people in my grade, and even then we weren't all within one year of each other.

[bananacat]

Yes, but I am not surrounded by people of my precise age, from my neighborhood and income level. I am not picking on public school. But it is odd in the long-term context of one's life. I think it is fine, my kids go to school and are flourishing in the rather narrow context.

Before the invention of bicycles, most people were only surrounded by people from their own neighborhood. Isolation has historically been the norm, not an anomaly. One of the great things about being able to travel is that it reduces the in-group/out-group bias that we all have to some extent. I think that a public school in a big school district is less narrow than living in a village with the same 500 people for a lifetime.

[valsa]

I think that a public school in a big school district is less narrow than living in a village with the same 500 people for a lifetime.

Exactly. I went to elementary school & middle school with several hundred other students (all different races and socioeconmic levels and, in several cases, classes with students spanning a 4-year age range) and my high school had 1500 students to interact with (not even counting all the teachers and other professionals) I never felt segregated.

[Wolfie]

Yes, but I am not surrounded by people of my precise age, from my neighborhood and income level. I am not picking on public school. But it is odd in the long-term context of one's life. I think it is fine, my kids go to school and are flourishing in the rather narrow context.

I wasn't only surrounded by people just like me in my schooling- but that may be the difference between living in a city, rather than a suburb. I teach in a small city and while some schools have the majority from one neighborhood over another, none of the schools are entirely the same in income/ethnicity/ect... It is especially apparent once students are in middle school and high school, where there are students from several elementary schools feeding into one school (even the k-8s in the district where I work add students from other schools at 6th grade). And there are lots of multi age interactions- the teachers and staff, the other grades at recess and other activities, some classes are multi grade, ect... I don't think it's as isolated as it could be, and it's definately not as isolated as it used to be.

BTW- my high school was in one of the higher income neighborhoods in my district, but there were students from many neighborhoods there, including public housing.

[AnnoDomini]

Oh yeah, that old chestnut. MAYBE the initial comparison might be true, if most homeschoolers ACTUALLY BOTHERED to socialize their kids the way described. Being isolated myself, I don't know if most homeschoolers isolate or socialize.

[FloraDoraDolly]

So when you go to work you're not surrounded by like people? I'm not too worried about the age thing, as at recess you hang out with the other grades, and in any case, even though there are immature adults, mental development does kind of plateau at some point.

I don't see much income segregation once you reach middle and high school, and I see a lot less of it in small towns than in big towns- if anything the homeschool co-ops tend to be much more segregated by what lifestyles the parents are leading, and tend to be mostly middle class.

But yeah, what is "normal" socialization? It is pretty individual to each childhood.

You're surrounded by people at work, but if you are 31 years old, you don't spend your day in an office full of other 31-year-olds, only interacting with people of other ages at lunch and during breaks. And you don't move up to the 32-year-olds' office next September. You don't graduate from this building at age 35 and start anew in a larger office building in another part of town. So yeah, school socialization has weird features that are not found elsewhere. Then again, there are reasons for practices such as age segregation. When you're in your thirties, you aren't developmentally different from people who are a few years older or younger than yourself. But my mom can tell you how challenging it was when she was a Brownie leader with grades 1-3 in the same troop. The first-graders couldn't do anything that involved reading or following complicated directions. When we made our sit-upons, they didn't have the hand-eye coordination to poke the needle through the holes. But if my mom and her co-leader chose activities that were easy enough for the first-graders to do, the third-graders got bored. The reason why schools segregate by age is because it works better than the alternatives.

One can also make a case for age segregation when watching the Duggars on their field trips. The older kids don't get anything out of all those trips to the petting farms; they're just there to babysit the little kids. If they're visiting a place where there's something for people of all ages, such as a museum or an aquarium, the teens and young adults don't get to attend lectures or explore areas of interest in depth. They always have to drag the little kids along and tailor everything to their high activity levels and short attention spans.