Lies, Damned Lies & Debi Pearl's Statistics

[hoipolloi]

The latest issue of the NGJ magazine is up & Debi has contributed an article called "In The News." Predictably, some of it portrays Michael Pearl as a major victim of the media but she's now found some hard data on what happens when spanking is outlawed:

There is a group of elitists that would like to take away the rights of the parent. They want to get in the home. They don’t believe you know how to raise your children. They lost the homeschooling battle, so they chose a new inroad—spanking, which they call “hitting.†It is a way they can take control of the family, and it is downright scary. Sweden passed laws against all forms of corporeal [sic] punishment 33 years ago, so it is the ideal laboratory in which to observe the consequences of abandoning traditional child-training methods. The generation raised on positive affirmation is now in their early thirties, and over 50% of the children are in some kind of therapy. Teen violence, crime, and antisocial behavior have risen 600%. In addition, parental violence against children has risen dramatically.

50% of Swedish children raised without corporal punishment are in therapy? Teen violence & crime have risen 600% ?

Could Debi be lying exaggerating?

[Mama Mia]

She is probably including "sins" like thinking for yourself, modern music, women wearing pants and any sex outside of marriage ( or outside of missionary position ) as "anti-social behavior" :shock: What an idiot.

"Therapy" probably includes seeing the school guidance counselor, or talking to a friend about those icky touchy feely emotions they can actually express :roll:

[Georgiana]

She could be drawing on true statistics, though imprecisely. If you ever take a statistics class, one of the first things you will learn is that if you are vague enough, you can make statistics say whatever you want. Note the rise in teen "antisocial behavior". WHAT is "antisocial behavior"? Because she doesn't specify, she could have included a wide range of things in that equation, some of which may not normally be what is implied by the term "antisocial behavior". For example, she could include diagnosis of autism in that equation. Sure, people diagnosed as being on the Autistic Spectrum could be considered "antisocial", and of course diagnosis of Autism Spectrum conditions have risen as we have gained a better understanding of what the Autism Spectrum is, but that should not be included in her equation. Why? Because what she is implying is antisocial behavior in neurotypicals, and no one has ever even falsified claims that Autism is linked to lack of spanking.

I am willing to bet that if she actually broke down her math or gave her sources, you would find some clearly questionable inclusions/exclusions.

[Clementine]

This is pure BS. I was born in the 70's so I am the first generation that was brought up without spanking. I'd say we're as well adjusted as most people in my generation in the western world. 50% of us - or any generation - are NOT in therapy.

There are other ways to "discipline" a child than spanking, so just because our parents or teachers didn't use physical violence against us, doesn't mean that we were allowed to do behave like little brats. It must be impossible for DP to even imagine.

[Childless]

I read an article recently (sorry, I can't remember the name but it was on yahoo) about how spanking can actually lower IQ and create adults who are more prone to violence. So, sorry, I'm going to have to jump on the no spanking band wagon. Why take the chance of doing damage to my child when I can use other forms of discipline to punish him? Seems like a no brainer to me.

[thoughtful]

Nasty bullshit, as ever with her and her filthy spouse.

Notice that she includes the assertion that not spanking causes a rise in parents being violent to their children.

That's a very important part of their bizarro-world -- by causing physical pain in their "controlled," planned way, it magically eliminates what they consider "child abuse."

Even if so (which I doubt), could that be because the parent has already satisfied the urge to hurt the child, and/or because the child is so beaten down that he takes fewer chances at being, y'know, human?

When I have time, I think I'll look for a source of information on actual child abuse in real-life Sweden (not to be confused with Debi's image of it).

Oh, and while I'm here:

Filth. Utter, vicious, deluded filth.

[apple1]

Figures may not lie, but liars figure.

[bananacat]

Even if this ridiculous statistic were true, having therapy isn't something to be ashamed of, and it's certainly not some indication of failed parenting. I have had extremely successful therapy for my OCD, and I would have needed it no matter what my parents did because it's a disease just like any other. It's no different than getting treatment for my hypothyroidism, except in this case therapy was the more successful treatment option for me. I really hate people who imply that therapy is shameful. Incidentally, my mom did spank me and I still needed therapy but Debi would probably say my Mom did it wrong because she never used anything other than her hand.

Teen violence has had a consistent downward trend for a long time in all developed countries. That part is an outright lie and I don't know what Debi might have stupidly misunderstood to come up with that one. Overwhelmingly, people who are in prison were spanked as kids. As for the therapy part, she's probably just a complete idiot there. It's likely that 50% of the kids have some kind of counseling like a guidance counselor at school but more involved. They probably meet with people who help them decide their best options for their futures, both education and personal. And Debi is a fool who thinks this is something completely different than what it is.

[hoipolloi]

Thank you, everyone. I figured that her statements were out-and-out lies.

I had quickly googled "Sweden teen violence/therapy" but the majority of hits were for right wing or fundie blogs & "news" sources which -- surprise! -- had no citations for these "statistics."

[gilora]

So in Debi's world, those inclined to hit their children would stop because of a law?

Think of all the domestic violence that would be prevented if only there were laws against it ... :doh:

[CanadianHippie]

She could be drawing on true statistics, though imprecisely. If you ever take a statistics class, one of the first things you will learn is that if you are vague enough, you can make statistics say whatever you want.

Like for instance: "In addition, parental violence against children has risen dramatically."

It is true that rates of child abuse rose for a period of time after spanking was outlawed. Why? Because spanking was then considered child abuse and was prosecuted under the law as such. Once the message got across to the people that spanking wasn't appropriate as a parenting tool, rates of abuse dropped back down because the parents who weren't doing more than spanking found other ways to work with their children.

[thoughtful]

Like for instance: "In addition, parental violence against children has risen dramatically."

It is true that rates of child abuse rose for a period of time after spanking was outlawed. Why? Because spanking was then considered child abuse and was prosecuted under the law as such.

Good point.

This site mentions that, and other aspects of Debi's goofy argument that are bogus:

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/joan_durrant.html

[Bookworm89]

So in Debi's world, those inclined to hit their children would stop because of a law?

Think of all the domestic violence that would be prevented if only there were laws against it ... :doh:

In her world, If "spanking" is outlawed she would begin harping on invasion of privacy to gather proof of the law breaking. While I would like to say Debi doesn't have 2 cents to rub together in the brain department, I think she is pretty intelligent but using it for promoting horrible ideas and practices.

[Conuly]

I'm still stuck on the scare quotes around "hitting".

:roll:

Dude. If you're rapidly moving your hand or any object other than your foot (in which case it's kicking) onto your child's body in order to cause pain, you're hitting your kid. Stop being a hypocrite and own it if you think it's right.

[Guest Anonymous]

Anti-social behavior? The Pearls are the epitome if ant-social behavior!

[Elle]

What Debi advocates goes beyond a spanking and into whipping BABIES. My daughter gets a pop on her butt with my hand now and then when she does something she knows she shouldn't do, but that is in no way comparable to using plumbing pipe, whipping kids who you suspect might be thinking about misbehaving, wearing pipe around your neck to keep them afraid, setting them up to fail and then whipping them when they do, and so on.

[Effie]

This is pure BS. I was born in the 70's so I am the first generation that was brought up without spanking. I'd say we're as well adjusted as most people in my generation in the western world. 50% of us - or any generation - are NOT in therapy.

There are other ways to "discipline" a child than spanking, so just because our parents or teachers didn't use physical violence against us, doesn't mean that we were allowed to do behave like little brats. It must be impossible for DP to even imagine.

I was born in the 80's in Sweden, which means I was also brought up without spanking. I definitely think my generation is in general well-adjusted. We are the legendary 80's, even called generation Y. Doctor Anders Parment has studied my generation. According to him, we are confident and independent. We are forward, demanding and fearless. We are individualists. We challenge authorities. We question. We have a low commitment to the church. So yes, I can see why Debi would fear us. Also our generation is egalitarian.

[hoipolloi]

I was born in the 80's in Sweden, which means I was also brought up without spanking. I definitely think my generation is in general well-adjusted. We are the legendary 80's, even called generation Y. Doctor Anders Parment has studied my generation. According to him, we are confident and independent. We are forward, demanding and fearless. We are individualists. We challenge authorities. We question. We have a low commitment to the church. So yes, I can see why Debi would fear us. Also our generation is egalitarian.

And, let me guess - half of you are not in therapy and your generation is not responsible for a 600% rise in crime, teen violence or antisocial behavior.

[Austin]

I take issue with any argument that people seeing a counselor or therapist is an indicator of some sort of generalized dysfunction. Many people see counselors and life coaches and the like to fine-tune their goals and keep on track to have the sort of life they want. If I saw a legitimate statistic that 50% of a population saw a therapist, I would be likely to think, "Good for them!" as opposed to "OMG, something must be wrong with them". I see preventive emotional health care as important as preventive physical health care.

[thoughtful]

I was born in the 80's in Sweden, which means I was also brought up without spanking. I definitely think my generation is in general well-adjusted. We are the legendary 80's, even called generation Y. Doctor Anders Parment has studied my generation. According to him, we are confident and independent. We are forward, demanding and fearless. We are individualists. We challenge authorities. We question. We have a low commitment to the church. So yes, I can see why Debi would fear us. Also our generation is egalitarian.

Sounds like my kind of people! And, you're right, it also sounds like Debi and Mike's worst nightmare!

And add me to the people who think that guidance, therapy, and counseling are signs of a person who cares about their own life and that of others, and is trying to do the best they can with their time on this earth.

[CanadianHippie]

I take issue with any argument that people seeing a counselor or therapist is an indicator of some sort of generalized dysfunction. Many people see counselors and life coaches and the like to fine-tune their goals and keep on track to have the sort of life they want. If I saw a legitimate statistic that 50% of a population saw a therapist, I would be likely to think, "Good for them!" as opposed to "OMG, something must be wrong with them". I see preventive emotional health care as important as preventive physical health care.

Not sure if the numbers are right, but if they are it means the younger generations in Sweden are not afraid to get outside help/opinions when it comes to deal with everyday stressors and decisions. It's a good thing.

[nokidsmom]

Absolutely, I myself got therapy when I was going through a rough patch (around the time of the 9/11 attacks, not related, but probably didn't help) and I realized that my own efforts to deal with things were not working. It was a lifesaver....I felt better immediately for doing it; people don't understand that it's a sign of strength to admit you need help.

When nokidsdad lost his job 3 years ago, I advised that he go to counseling. He was in such shock that I felt it was better to nip any potential mental health issues in the bud. He also got feedback on what he wanted to do next; he continued to see his counselor until he found a job last year.

[hoipolloi]

Of course a normal, reasonable & healthy person seeks therapy when needed, just the way s/he seeks a doctor's care for strep throat or a broken arm.

Debi Pearl is not normal or reasonable, and I'd say that her worldview is extremely unhealthy.