Proof that fundies DON'T walk the walk

[valsa]

I really cannot see how 'Jesus loves you' is *that* offensive - can people really not take things in the way they were intended?

The spirit of it isn't offensive, but it is offensive to assume such a tunnel-vision, Judeo-Christian worldview that you think, "Of course everyone should think it's awesome to be told that Jesus loves them!"

I think it's basic politeness to avoid saying something to a stranger that might make them uncomfortable. Like I said before, why do you need to mention sex, politics, or religion to a stranger you're only going to talk to for 15 seconds? I wouldn't walk up to a guy, hand him a sandwich, and say "Oh, by the way, I'm a lesbian" or "I had a three-way last night".

[fluttershies]

The spirit of it isn't offensive, but it is offensive to assume such a tunnel-vision, Judeo-Christian worldview that you think, "Of course everyone should think it's awesome to be told that Jesus loves them!"

I think it's basic politeness to avoid saying something to a stranger that might make them uncomfortable. Like I said before, why do you need to mention sex, politics, or religion to a stranger you're only going to talk to for 15 seconds? I wouldn't walk up to a guy, hand him a sandwich, and say "Oh, by the way, I'm a lesbian" or "I had a three-way last night".

Uh, I really don't have a worldview like that. Of course I know that others aren't Christians, and I have no problem with that. I don't approve of programmes where people are basically bribed into attending church with food or money or whatever, or where the aim is to convert people. But telling someone that Jesus loves them is as unaggressive as it comes.

And this is rather different from those situations - if someone sets up a charity based on/because of Jesus or any other religious figure, it's not unreasonable for them to mention them. It's not coming out of nowhere. It would be rude to say it to a stranger on the street, but not when you're interacting with people as part of running a religious organisation, because then it's surely to be expected. If you go to a religious organisation for anything, then be prepared for talk of religion.

I'm not saying that you can't be offended by it, by the way, nor am I someone who has a problem with political correctness. I just think that expecting a religious organisation to somehow not mention their religion at all is rather unreasonable.

[Elle]

I am glad to see that some fundy churches are trying to help instead of focusing on what they can get from the world. This is the sort of thing churches are supposed to be doing.

[valsa]

And this is rather different from those situations - if someone sets up a charity based on/because of Jesus or any other religious figure, it's not unreasonable for them to mention them. It's not coming out of nowhere. It would be rude to say it to a stranger on the street, but not when you're interacting with people as part of running a religious organisation, because then it's surely to be expected. If you go to a religious organisation for anything, then be prepared for talk of religion.

1) I think it's bullshit to hold aid hostage in exchange for being a captive audience to religious talk. I'm an atheist-bordering-on-antitheist (and this kind of thing only pushes me farther and farther towards that end), and I wouldn't require desperate people to listen to me criticize religion just to get something to eat.

2) This is what the original poster I was talking to posted about the help she gives-

We (as in, my children and I) give out sandwiches and bottled water to the homeless people under the overpasses we go by when we go to the zoo. We smile and say, "Jesus loves you."

What part of that implies a charity set up by a religious organization? The people she says that to are strangers on the street (or under the overpass, as it stands)

[Guest Anonymous]

When people are cold, hungry, and suffering....you help them. Then if your so inclined pray for/with them or whatever. You don't hold basic life saving necessities hostage by making people who are suffering listen to your preaching and praying, and you don't berate them if they don't want to listen to "the message". That is not what Christ taught! But then again these fundies don't really follow God's word. They follow the legalism of Gothard and the like!

[anniebgood]

The 3rd Thursday of the month our parish does a hot dinner for the homeless/needy at a Church of the Brethren nearby. 4 churches take a Thursday every month and on the 5th, the home church does it. During the holidays we collect new sweatshirts and socks and they are distributed at the December dinner. We have been doing it for over 10 years and each year the number of families as well as singles have increased. There are people there to give information on social services, health care and other things that are needed. We have a special account that provides the funding for meals, and it's been in the black for most of it's existence. There may be a word or two about Jesus but for the most part, it's about the hot meal these people look forward to.

[pfamilygal]

Well, I guess I'll have to live with the idea that you think I'm rude to say "Jesus loves you" when we roll down our windows and hand food out when we are accosted by people at stopsigns (yes, they will come up and bang on your car windows). Unlike the other, actually rude people, who ignore the homeless while they talk on their cell phones, or give them the finger.

[Red Molly]

I do think it's rude. It's passive aggressive and assumes that you somehow know best. You have no idea what the religious views are of the people you are feeding. If your pure desire is just to help feed them you wouldn't care what they believed or didn't believe. Telling them "Jesus Loves You" is just a way of emphasizing your righteousness, and of course you do want them to believe in your Jesus don't you?

[valsa]

Unlike the other, actually rude people, who ignore the homeless while they talk on their cell phones, or give them the finger.

If I had to choose between being ignored and having some condescending prat talk down to me, I know which one I'd pick.

Even people down on their luck have pride and dignity, which you are not respecting. Careful, your privilege is showing.

[smores]

I do think it's rude. It's passive aggressive and assumes that you somehow know best. You have no idea what the religious views are of the people you are feeding. If your pure desire is just to help feed them you wouldn't care what they believed or didn't believe. Telling them "Jesus Loves You" is just a way of emphasizing your righteousness, and of course you do want them to believe in your Jesus don't you?

I think this is well said. I also think it's not the message, but the delivery. I am not bothered to tell someone Jesus loves you in a scenario where power over money/food/whatever is equal since they can feel free to respond "Allah loves you" or what have you. I am bothered by any mention of religion or politics in an act of goodwill; such charitable acts shouldn't advertise religion. Why is it so bad to give out of the kindness of your heart, rather than making it about a religious figure?

[Jezebel]

I do think it's rude. It's passive aggressive and assumes that you somehow know best. You have no idea what the religious views are of the people you are feeding. If your pure desire is just to help feed them you wouldn't care what they believed or didn't believe. Telling them "Jesus Loves You" is just a way of emphasizing your righteousness, and of course you do want them to believe in your Jesus don't you?

*DING!*

I was trying to put into words why the "Jesus loves you" bit bothered me, and you've hit it on the head.

Long ago, when I was struggling, I was the occasional recipient of the kindness of strangers. There were people who recognized that I was in a rough spot, and offered assistance.

Many of them simply gave their help because they saw it as the kind, benevolent thing to do. Why did they see it as that? I don't know. Maybe they'd been through their own rough patch, or loved someone else who had. Maybe they were simply compassionate people who were determined to do what they could to make the world a better place. The point is, I don't have to know why they did it--they just did it, and asked nothing of me in return, because they believed it was the right thing to do.

Once in a while, I did get the hit-and-run "Jesus loves you" folks. I was good at avoiding the ones who expected me to listen to their spiel before stooping to help me, but not so much with the ones who followed up a good deed with proselytizing. And every time I got a chirpy "Jesus loves you!" and/or a tract handed to me, it soured the whole thing.

The people who did me kindnesses without invoking Jesus? They very well may have been Christians, for all I know. I'm sure some of them were. But they weren't out there trying to score points for what a good Christian they were. Maybe if I'd asked or shown interest in their religion they would have told me about their spiritual reasons for doing what they were doing. But they weren't pushing their religion on anyone not clearly receptive to it, then patting themselves on the back for "spreading the good news" along with their charity. Whether they were Christian or not, they were engaged in human acts of kindness. They helped restore my faith in my fellow human beings, proving that humanity really can be unstintingly generous, kind, and compassionate--at a time when I needed that the most.

There were no strings. There was no catch. There was no message they expected me to listen to in exchange for their help. They just gave help, for free. Period.

And maybe the "Jesus loves you!" crowd really wanted to help, but they also wanted something from the recipient--they wanted to be able to proselytize to them. Then they could go back to church and say, "I did some charitable work for the less-fortunate, and I told them Jesus loves them!"

Never mind that they were tossing fistfuls of seed at any bare patch of dirt they saw, regardless of how unfertile and unreceptive it might be, just so they could say they'd sown x pounds of seed. Never mind that they didn't know the people they were saying "Jesus loves you!" to, didn't know their stories, had no real bond or relationship with them, and neither knew nor cared what religious beliefs they might already have, or why. None of that mattered--it's another notch in their belt, another example they can cite when talking about what Good Christians they are.

The charity that came with hit-and-run proselytizing attached was soured for me because it wasn't charity--it was a transaction I hadn't consented to. I didn't agree to listen to them tell me about Jesus, and I would not have, given a choice. To give me what appears to be a gift of kindness--then hit me with a religious message I didn't ask for or show any interest in? Fuck you. I don't want your religion. If I did, I'd have it already; it's not like I've never heard of Jesus, or there's ever been a shortage of Christians trying to convert me (and that was especially true when I was down and out).

If you're going to do charitable acts, just do them. An act of genuine kindness will be gratefully accepted, and even a small one can change someone's life. Trust me--one woman buying me a cup of coffee on a bitterly cold morning gave me far more hope and faith that things would work out than all the "Jesus loves you!" crowd put together. If you can't give freely, without using it as an opportunity to proselytize to the recipient, then go do charitable work where you know for sure that will be welcomed, where the recipients are willing to take part in that transaction. Because for me (and a lot of people like me), Christians using charity as a pretext for pushing their religion at me had the exact opposite effect they intended.

[PrincessOfSiam]

I live in the area that Jubilee Reach serves, so I also looked into them. To be fair, nearly all of their services are FREE: mobile medical clinic, dental clinic, youth sports programs, ESL etc. Yes, they do offer a 6 week music program which looks pretty intensive (and spendy). But other programs are no-cost. I am not affiliated with these people in any way, but they do appear legit. I understand that Christians are under a microscope where charity is concerned as we do have a poor track record of ulterior motives. However, there are a lot people doing a lot of good also.

[freejoytoo]

No, it wasn't from that - I already had interest in church but was raised in an atheist household and was not allowed to go.

I really cannot see how 'Jesus loves you' is *that* offensive - can people really not take things in the way they were intended? If I think that Jesus loves someone, then I'm going to say so. It's not like they have to believe me. Telling someone that Jesus loves them is not exactly shoving them into a church at gunpoint.

But again, I think it's a cultural thing - I think we're less bothered about offending people in the UK than in the US.

I'm in the UK and I disagree - in fact, I think I would say we were more private about religion than in the states. I've heard stories where people in America get asked about where they go to church and stuff in interviews - that would never happen here. I mean, I know you get the loonies who preach in city centres but everyone agrees they are loonies. If I was homeless In would be very shocked if someone gave me a sandwich and told me Jesus loved me, not so much about it being offensive but because it's so blatant about religion.

[debrand]

Well, I guess I'll have to live with the idea that you think I'm rude to say "Jesus loves you" when we roll down our windows and hand food out when we are accosted by people at stopsigns (yes, they will come up and bang on your car windows). Unlike the other, actually rude people, who ignore the homeless while they talk on their cell phones, or give them the finger.

At one point, like you, I would have been shocked to be told that saying 'Jesus loves you 'could have been taken as rude.

As a Christian, I viewed the world through my religion. Saying Jesus loves you was my way of taking the attention off myself and placing it on god. The nudging that I received to help others must have come from god, I thought. So, he was working through me because I wasn't good enough to decide on my on to help. Plus, I was honored to reflect the light of a being who loved everyone with more love than I could comprehend.

Now, that I am not a Christian, I can understand why someone would get offended at the phrase, 'Jesus loves you.'

Again, put yourself in the homeless person's place. You are hungry and desperate. People avoid you. Someone approaches you. They smile broadly and are not afraid to shake your hand. They offer you needed food. As they hand you the sandwich, they say, "Don't worry sister. You are free from sin because there is no sin. There is no god. Be happy in your freedom. Your life is you own." You'd be right to be offended and betrayed.

I don't think that you're intentions are to be rude and I'm sure most people are just glad to get the sandwiches. However, if someone did express a dislike of hearing the phrase, 'Jesus loves you', I would hope that you just smile and give them the sandwich. Hopefully, you wouldn't accuse them of viewing you as a rude asshole.

[debrand]

I wanted to add that as a person living in the south eastern United States, I see religion everywhere. It is even on billboards here. After awhile, you tune religion out because it is so ever present.

Many people assume that everyone who is kind must be a Christian. So adding, "Jesus loves you" is probably redundant in this area.

The sandwich idea is a good one though. I see people begging for money all the time but my funds are very short. Don't worry, I won't tell them, "There is NO god. Have a nice day."

[fluttershies]

1) I think it's bullshit to hold aid hostage in exchange for being a captive audience to religious talk. I'm an atheist-bordering-on-antitheist (and this kind of thing only pushes me farther and farther towards that end), and I wouldn't require desperate people to listen to me criticize religion just to get something to eat.

2) This is what the original poster I was talking to posted about the help she gives-

What part of that implies a charity set up by a religious organization? The people she says that to are strangers on the street (or under the overpass, as it stands)

A) Saying 'Jesus loves you' does not automatically mean that you are holding aid hostage - stop jumping to conclusions. I know I'd give aid whatever the situation, but as a person who does believe that Jesus loves everyone, I'm going to say that. It's not like I'd hold the food behind my back until I'd said it. Why exactly are your expectations so low? Being a Christian =/= being a fundie. Why do you think we're such bad people?

B) I can see how that example would come across as maybe inappropriate. I should add that over here there's mandatory prayer in public school and also hymn singing, as well as prayer in Parliament and at council meetings, so I doubt people in the UK would get offended at something they hear all the time.

Relax. People telling you that Jesus loves you aren't always trying to convert you and definitely not to offend you, they're just being nice.

[freejoytoo]

I live in the UK and if some randomer told me Jesus loved me I'd be pissed off and I'm not even homeless.

[fluttershies]

I live in the UK and if some randomer told me Jesus loved me I'd be pissed off and I'm not even homeless.

I fail to see why being told that someone loves you is such a problem. It's not even to do with the fact that Jesus is mentioned - a pagan wishing me 'blessed be' would just get me smiling, thanking them and moving on. It's just politeness.

[valsa]

A) Saying 'Jesus loves you' does not automatically mean that you are holding aid hostage - stop jumping to conclusions. I know I'd give aid whatever the situation, but as a person who does believe that Jesus loves everyone, I'm going to say that. It's not like I'd hold the food behind my back until I'd said it. Why exactly are your expectations so low? Being a Christian =/= being a fundie. Why do you think we're such bad people?

Whaaaa! Somebody says you're being rude because you can't get off your damn Jesus horse long enough to think about someone else's feelings and you automatically jump to that person thinking all Christians are bad people? I'm surprised you're not trying to claim persecution while you're at it.

As other people and I have said, you may not be physically holding the food behind your back but you are dealing with people who are powerless in your interactions. You're in a situation where you have all the power- you can tell those people about Jesus until the cows come home but they can't respond in any way that they think you might not like. I'm frankly amazed that you either can't grasp the unequal power dynamics or you just don't care about exploiting them.

Relax. People telling you that Jesus loves you aren't always trying to convert you and definitely not to offend you, they're just being nice.

No, they're not. If they were being nice, they'd be considerate of the feelings of the people they're helping.

[valsa]

I fail to see why being told that someone loves you is such a problem. It's not even to do with the fact that Jesus is mentioned - a pagan wishing me 'blessed be' would just get me smiling, thanking them and moving on. It's just politeness.

Why do you have to understand it? It's it enough that people do feel that way?

I don't understand why people like Justin Bieber but I don't shit all over his music when I'm talking to a fan.

[freejoytoo]

I don't see the need to for you to tell me your religious beliefs. I don't care if you're Christian, Muslim, Pagan or whatever, but I don't need to be told that an entity loves me. What am I supposed to do with that information? Would you like it if I said to you, "There's no god, but don't worry, other people love you." I just don't see the point. Why not just hand someone the sandwich? Religion is a personal thing. I also think it's rude to tell a homeless person that God loves them when they've probably had a horrific life.

[Patsy]

"Jesus loves you" is not just "somebody cares". It is an assertion that Jesus exists and is capable of doing stuff, now. The expectation following such a statement is that a person will feel joy, or gratitude, or at the very least not feel completely thrown off and unsure how to respond. Saying such a thing to a stranger is like saying "I assume/expect you believe the same things I do". It's rude.

[Guest Anonymous]

To add to my previous statement...if I were homeless & hungry, I wouldn't refuse help if someone said God/Jesus/whatever deity or higher power loves you. But I personally don't do that when I offer help to someone, because I can see how it could be seen as holding aid hostage.

[pfamilygal]

Y'all are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I can think of a lot worse things to be said to someone as you hand them free food.

And it's not holding "aid hostage" when I hand a bag of food/cold water out the window to a stranger beating on my car window and say "Jesus loves you." If I made them listen to a sermon before I gave them food, that could be considered holding aid hostage. But frankly, if I'm giving someone free food and water on a hot day, I think I have the right to say "Jesus loves you." I don't make them agree before handing them the parcel.

If someone were handing me a parcel of free anything, I wouldn't be offended if they said "Allah loves you" or "Hey, come meditate at our temple" or whatever. But I generally don't assign malicious intent to everyone and am generally not easily offended. If you are looking to be offended, you probably will be.

Anyone who follows Christ is commanded by Him to spread the Good News. You cannot be a Christian (one who obeys and follows Christ) without evangelizing.

And it is not self-righteousness that causes me to tell someone "God bless you" or "Jesus loves you," when I have an opportunity to help them. It is the opposite. My heart is selfish and wants to spend money on me and my kids. With six kids, money certainly isn't in an overabundance around here. I say "Jesus loves you" because I believe it to be true AND because I want them to know why I am helping. It is because He has changed my heart and filled me with His love, when my natural tendency is to be self-centered. It is all Him, not me.

Feel free to snark away at my intentions, but I really cannot fathom why saying 3 kind words would be rude. Saying "God hates fags" or some other hateful nonsense? Of course. But telling someone that ANYONE loves them seems like a kind thing to me.

[pfamilygal]

And keep in mind that we're talking about a 10 second interaction at a stop sign. So it's not about the other person being powerless to respond. We're not having a conversation. I'm giving them a free meal, a smile, a "God bless" or "Jesus loves you," and driving off.