What was Adam and Eve's sin?

[Patsy]

This will depend on what the definition of 'sin' is, but I was curious to hear opinions on what the 'original sin' might be.

If sin is defined as being separate from God (or having to do with that, at least):

The sin was to think human relationships could be more fulfilling than God's love. Adam left to follow Eve. This left humans incapable of being fully immersed in God's love and presence while living.

The sin came with self-consciousness, even if self-consciousness isn't, itself, sin. (Or, the sin was self-consciousness.)

The sin was not giving God a chance to explain himself, and believing the snake over God.

There was nothing WRONG with what they did, but by the very nature of knowledge of good and evil, or something, they became separate from God which introduced the possibility of sin.

The sin was to disobey God, never mind what the order was. Sin has very little to do with morality and quite a lot to do with authority.

Anyone ever heard any other ideas, or want to defend their favourite?

[snarkbillie]

Eve's sin was adding her own spin to God's edict. God said do not eat of the tree. The serpent asked if God said not to eat of any of the trees and Eve replied "No, we can eat of any of them except this one, we can't even touch this one or we'll die." Then she touched it and saw that she didn't die. God never said not to touch it. She decided to make extra rules. I heard this from a fundie-lite. I thought it was an interesting spin, especially considering that they take the Bible literally and couldn't explain what Adam's sin was. Apparently he was tarnished by Eve.

From my fundie preacher the sin was sex. :roll: Once again interesting to me since they say the Bible is literal...and there's no mention of fucking right there, it's all about eating of the tree of knowledge and shit.

I have my own view but it is very dependent on the story being allegorical and passed down from generation to generation to explain something.

[CanadianHippie]

Well my understanding is the original sin was disobeying God, but when God made Adam and Eve he didn't give them knowledge of right and wrong, they got that after they ate from the tree... So... What is up with God thinking they are going to know that disobeying his is wrong if they don't know what "wrong" is?

Also, if disobeying God is a sin, why do fundies (and some other Christians) insist the guy who decided at (literally) the last moment not to knock up his sister in-law sinned because he spilled his seed rather than disobeyed a direct order from the big man upstairs?

[kaetrin]

I was always taught that it was disobedience, with a generous side helping of feminine gullibility.

Some of the early church fathers suggest that it was gluttony, which you don't hear too often any more. Also with a generous side helping of feminine gullibility, though.

CanadianHippie, I'm not sure what you mean about the Onan story. I thought the point was that he was supposed to knock up his (widowed) sister-in-law to carry on the family name, according to Israelite law/custom, and he refused.

Jewish FJers, what's your position on this story? I've never heard Jews talk about the Fall.

[2xx1xy1JD]

At work, so I don't have my books in front of me and I'm winging it.

Disobedience would be the primary issue.

Beyond that, the reason for the rule would seem to be that "knowledge of good and evil" would make it possible for humans to make decisions that were in fact evil, rather than having this type of relationship where they would naturally be inclined to always follow the way of G-d. I also think that the story works less on a literal level, and more on a deeper, metaphoric level. Having free will and the ability to make moral choices is a major difference between the human and animal worlds - but it is also part of what makes humans potentially more dangerous. Animals can be dangerous and may kill, but they cannot form evil intent. They have a set nature, and they follow it. Since we have this potential for greatness but also for great evil, humans need to be mortal.

There's some more complicated stuff in the mystical traditions about the origins of evils and repairing the world. In a very brief nutshell, it sees evil as resulting from factors that block the Divine light, and teaches that when we repair the world to the extent that these blockages are eliminated, then immortality may be possible. Google Lurianic kabbalah and be prepared to get a headache while reading.

[dawbs]

Also, if disobeying God is a sin, why do fundies (and some other Christians) insist the guy who decided at (literally) the last moment not to knock up his sister in-law sinned because he spilled his seed rather than disobeyed a direct order from the big man upstairs?

I always heard/read the sin of Onan being, not that he 'spilled his seed' but that he was deliberately trying to cut his bro's widow (and his bro/bro's kids--which would kinda be his kids) out of the inheritance they were entitled to--through trickery.

[TheJewAmongUs]

Jewish FJers, what's your position on this story? I've never heard Jews talk about the Fall.

That y'all are cra-zee.

Just kidding. (Sort of.)

We don't believe in original sin.

I don't think we believe what Adam & Eve did was a sin.

My interpretation is basically: Man is imperfect and capable of sin, but each man himself determines if he sins of not.

[Swamptribe]

I was always taught that the sin was disobedience to god. That by taking the bite of the apple, Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of good and evil, which god didn't want them to have. But it's weird, because being an all knowing all powerful god, god woulda known they were gonna take that bite. So, either god set them up to fall in the first place, or, god isn't so all knowing after all.

See, it's this kind of stuff that used to get me in trouble in Catechism.

[emmiedahl]

I have not been taught that what Adam and Eve did was a sin.

In the garden were two trees; the tree of knowledge and the tree of life. Eve and Adam ate from the first and gained a knowledge of good and evil--of morality--setting them apart from other animals. God did not want them to eat from the tree of life because it would make them immortal, so he banished them from the garden.

I don't think the word 'sin' even comes into this story.

We were discussing the two creation accounts here a few days ago. I asked my mother, who always has a great spin on Bible stories. She said that the disparity is caused by God creating Lilith as the first woman. Lilith did not work out, so He made a helper more suited to Adam--Eve. I don't know if this is from the Midrash or what, but I think I have heard it from other sources.

[TheJewAmongUs]

We were discussing the two creation accounts here a few days ago. I asked my mother, who always has a great spin on Bible stories. She said that the disparity is caused by God creating Lilith as the first woman. Lilith did not work out, so He made a helper more suited to Adam--Eve. I don't know if this is from the Midrash or what, but I think I have heard it from other sources.

Ooh, I know this!

My rabbi taught this as part of Confirmation, and from what I remember:

Lilith is in the Talmud. In Genesis it says at some point that god created man and woman, before the part where Eve is created from Adam's rib. The idea is that Adam & Lilith were equal, and then argued over who would be, *ahem* "on top." Lilith leaves him, and Adam complains. God sends 3 angels to bring her back, but she refuses. I don't remember why, but you're supposed to put the names of those angels on your baby's crib as protection.

I don't know how much detail is in the Talmud and how much is later midrash, but that's how I remember it. The part about being on top especially stuck out.

[finleeport]

From what I was taught in my Sunday Greek School, the sin was Egotism.

The Tree of Knowledge had no special powers, it was just an ordinary planted there to test Adam and Eve. When they ate the fruit, the only 'knowledge' they gain was ego.

Had Adam and Eve asked God for forgiveness instead of blaming each other like children, they would have still stayed in Eden. The one sin that banned them from the Garden was the sin of Egotism.

In our Greek language and Church history, Pride is not so much of deadly sin as Ego is; Pride can be both good and bad, but ego in my language (meaning 'I') has nothing good.

[CanadianHippie]

I was always taught that it was disobedience, with a generous side helping of feminine gullibility.

Some of the early church fathers suggest that it was gluttony, which you don't hear too often any more. Also with a generous side helping of feminine gullibility, though.

CanadianHippie, I'm not sure what you mean about the Onan story. I thought the point was that he was supposed to knock up his (widowed) sister-in-law to carry on the family name, according to Israelite law/custom, and he refused.

Jewish FJers, what's your position on this story? I've never heard Jews talk about the Fall.

I always heard/read the sin of Onan being, not that he 'spilled his seed' but that he was deliberately trying to cut his bro's widow (and his bro/bro's kids--which would kinda be his kids) out of the inheritance they were entitled to--through trickery.

It is also a common story that pops up as to why masturbation is wrong. The logic used is his "seed" should have been used to make a baby, but it didn't, ergo any act that makes you shoot a load without a woman on the other end is evil.

[emmiedahl]

Lilith is in the Talmud. In Genesis it says at some point that god created man and woman, before the part where Eve is created from Adam's rib. The idea is that Adam & Lilith were equal, and then argued over who would be, *ahem* "on top." Lilith leaves him, and Adam complains. God sends 3 angels to bring her back, but she refuses. I don't remember why, but you're supposed to put the names of those angels on your baby's crib as protection.

I don't know how much detail is in the Talmud and how much is later midrash, but that's how I remember it. The part about being on top especially stuck out.

Thanks! I was not raised religious Jew, nor was my mother. So some of her interpretations are grounded in some passage somewhere, and others are pulled out of her ass. My stepfather was raised Orthodox, but he is too smart to correct my mom.

[JesusFightClub]

Wanting to be like God was the sin, no? They ate the fruits so they could be Gods themselves. I still think it's rather unfair as he totes knew they were going to...

[emmiedahl]

They would have to eat from the other tree, the Tree of Life, in order to be more like God.

Also, they would need knowledge of good and evil in order to truly sin. Since they only gained this knowledge after eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, there was no sin. The word "sin" is not even used in the story.

This is where it is good to read a Tanakh instead of a KJV.

[Lainey]

From my crazy puritanical family, I heard the "original sin" was sex. I didn't even hear of another interpretation until I was in college (in my English class, for some reason--must have had something to do with a book we were reading).

My fundie-lite friend said the sin was that Adam didn't do his job as a man/headship, in that he followed Eve and let her tell him what to do instead of the other way around. :roll:

[emmiedahl]

Just out of curiosity, what was the justification for the sex thing?

[Patsy]

Ooh, I know this!

My rabbi taught this as part of Confirmation, and from what I remember:

Lilith is in the Talmud. In Genesis it says at some point that god created man and woman, before the part where Eve is created from Adam's rib. The idea is that Adam & Lilith were equal, and then argued over who would be, *ahem* "on top." Lilith leaves him, and Adam complains. God sends 3 angels to bring her back, but she refuses. I don't remember why, but you're supposed to put the names of those angels on your baby's crib as protection.

I don't know how much detail is in the Talmud and how much is later midrash, but that's how I remember it. The part about being on top especially stuck out.

Folkore I heard: Lilith is the mother of demons, and kills babies when she flies over at night. You have to protect your babies from her with the names.

[finleeport]

Isn't Lilith suppose to be a feminist icon/symbol? after all she refused to lie beneath Adam, so why would we continue to see her as an evil demon/witch/vampire/succubus?

[salsa]

I Tim 2:14 - "Eve was deceived and Adam was not." Never made sense to me - if he wasn't deceived, why did he eat the fruit? duh. .... in any case, fundies like to use that for internal biblical proof of women's inferiority.

[Doomed Harlottt]

Why did Adam eat the fruit even though he wasn't deceived? Because Eve told him to! That's what happens when you let a woman be the boss of you -- she will lead you very much astray. Adam screwed up by letting Eve take charge even though she came from him, not the other way around.

I'm not saying this makes sense, mind you. Just that it's an interpretation I've seen!

[salsa]

Me, too... and I find ways to change the topic or leave because "you can't argue with stupid."

[Doomed Harlottt]

One theory is that Genesis is a mythical account of the changes society went through in going from a hunter-gatherer economy to a more settled and labor-intensive agrarian economy. As a result of that shift, women became subjugated and men had to earn their bread by the sweat of their brow, rather than sitting around most of the time. Just a theory!

[Patsy]

Re: Jewish writings never call it the "fall" or "original sin": That's where I find the concept of sin as being separation from God, full stop, interesting, because I think in that view, a Jewish perspective on what happened might line up pretty easily with a Christian's. Probably not a fundie Christian, mind :lol:

[emmiedahl]

There is certainly a lot of diversity in Jewish though ("two Jews, three opinions") but I have never met a Jew who believed in original sin as defined by Christianity.

My understanding is that this concept was introduced later in Christian history to explain the need for Jesus. He ended up to not be the Messiah by Jewish rules, so a new rule had to be made. Instead of defining the Messiah as a political liberator, the Christian church began defining him as a spiritual liberator. This would not jive with the Jewish belief that we are born just fine the first time, so the concept of original sin was derived to be the thing that Jesus saved Christians from.