Question for those who believe the Bible has no error

[marmalade]

There are two different creation stories because they emerge from two different oral traditions. The redactors of the pentateuch kept both for a reason that we do not have access to since that decision was make several thousand years ago.

Simple.

Not to mention the Priestly version (Gen 1) - likely written during the exile period in the 500's BCE, is meant to fill in the gaps of the Yahweh text of Gen 2. The more structured P version appears first to essentially give backbone to the older story told in Gen 2.

I can't believe most people don't realize there are two flood stories, either. One with the pairs of animals (Priestly version) again lends credence to the older flood story by giving it more specificity. The older story has the 7 sets of unclean animals on hand for ritual sacrifices to their godS. Yes, this was still a time of polytheism, regardless of what Christians want to think. The story of Rachel taking the "gods" from her father's house, again illustrating a culture of polytheism.

Lucky me, I get to write about this stuff for my first take home mid-term inside of the next couple of weeks. Just Genesis and Exodus.

Bottom line: the bible is riddled with contradiction that really can't be reconciled; the redactors of the Pentateuch more than likely cleaned up the stories to give their people hope during the exilic years.

[AmyP]

Yes, this was still a time of polytheism, regardless of what Christians want to think

The polytheism of the nomadic cultures described in genesis is a major theme..... why do you believe that Christians are unaware of this, or are avoiding this aspect of the book?

[formergothardite]

There are a couple of ways that this is looked at- the simplest being that many Hebrew scholars believe that the word yastar can be translated as formed, or had formed. The translation of genesis 2:19 then becomes

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

Most bible scholars teach that the first chapter is intended to lay down the specific order of creation, while the second chapter gives more detail, but does not describe the order of events. The second chapter assumes the order given in the first chapter.

If it was just the animals then I could sort of buy this theory, but it is the creation of Adam and Eve. In one God made them both together, both in His image, and in the other God made Adam, tried to find a companion for Him with the animals, that didn't work, so Even was made out of Adam.

I was raised IFB and taught that literally every single word was true. I honestly don't know how I managed to not see it after hearing the story my entire life. I guess it is because deep thinking isn't really encouraged and you are kind of just told "This is what the Bible said, don't question it." and I never did.

There has to be some members here who believe the Bible is literally true, every word! I would love to know their thoughts on it.

[Sola]

The polytheism of the nomadic cultures described in genesis is a major theme..... why do you believe that Christians are unaware of this, or are avoiding this aspect of the book?

Because te average christanis unaware of it. As is the average fundie. The ones who are aware are the ones who have stdied it. Of those there are the ones who ignore it because to think too deeply would mean questionibg their faith and the others purposely dont preach it or encourage thinking about among the sheeple because then they would lose their influence.

I hate typing on my pad!

[debrand]

The biggest contradictions are the way that deity is presented throughout the bible. Sometimes, he is a cruel, vindicitive ass and other times, he is loving and just. I don't understand how people can accept both views of their god. Most Christians get around this by claiming that their god wouldn't be loving if he wasn't just but there doesn't seem anything fair about drowning pregnant women in a world wide flood.

Even in the New Testament, Jesus is shown as not only the gentle, kind god who loves the poor and downtrodden, but also a being who will throw parents into eternal torture for accepting a mark in order to feed their children.

[debrand]

Because te average christanis unaware of it. As is the average fundie. The ones who are aware are the ones who have stdied it. Of those there are the ones who ignore it because to think too deeply would mean questionibg their faith and the others purposely dont preach it or encourage thinking about among the sheeple because then they would lose their influence.

I hate typing on my pad!

It would be very threatening to many Christians to accept that their god was once just one among many. It isn't a question of simply being unaware. There are many Christians that will not read or look at anything that contradicts their views. I have known people who feel that Christianity is under attack so anything that doesn't promote their view point is part of that attack.

[valsa]

The polytheism of the nomadic cultures described in genesis is a major theme..... why do you believe that Christians are unaware of this, or are avoiding this aspect of the book?

I believe the average Christian is either unaware or ignoring the fact that, in many cases, the Bible treats other gods as being real (it's just that the Christian god is better and more powerful) The Christian god created Adam and Eve, but other gods existed. This sort of thing answers questions like where Cain's wives came from. Also, I've seen arguments that, in the story of Moses, the god who hardened the Pharaoh’s heart was not the Christian god (which makes sense because only an asshole would harden a person's heart against doing what he wanted him to do, not that the OT god isn't capable of it)

[AmyP]

If it was just the animals then I could sort of buy this theory, but it is the creation of Adam and Eve. In one God made them both together, both in His image, and in the other God made Adam, tried to find a companion for Him with the animals, that didn't work, so Even was made out of Adam.

I was raised IFB and taught that literally every single word was true. I honestly don't know how I managed to not see it after hearing the story my entire life. I guess it is because deep thinking isn't really encouraged and you are kind of just told "This is what the Bible said, don't question it." and I never did.

There has to be some members here who believe the Bible is literally true, every word! I would love to know their thoughts on it.

The first chapter says

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

I don't read that verse as saying that he created them at the same time, but simply that he created them both, and they were both in his image.

I also don't read the second chapter the way that you have summarized it. I don't think God ever looked for a companion for Adam among the animals. The passage starts with the statement that Adam is alone. The animals are brought to Adam, and then Adam recognizes that he is alone. And then Eve is created.

The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.â€

19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam[f] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs[g] and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib[h] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

[debrand]

I believe the average Christian is either unaware or ignoring the fact that, in many cases, the Bible treats other gods as being real (it's just that the Christian god is better and more powerful) The Christian god created Adam and Eve, but other gods existed. This sort of thing answers questions like where Cain's wives came from. Also, I've seen arguments that, in the story of Moses, the god who hardened the Pharaoh’s heart was not the Christian god (which makes sense because only an asshole would harden a person's heart against doing what he wanted him to do, not that the OT god isn't capable of it)

I was always told that Cain had a sister who he married. That doesn't line up with the Genesis tale. However, some believe that Cain/Abel were not the first children of Adam and Eve. Their other children left home and created a community where Cain found his wife.

Yes, that sounds a bit silly but that is how a lot of people explain the story.

[formergothardite]

I was always told that Cain had a sister who he married. That doesn't line up with the Genesis tale. However, some believe that Cain/Abel were not the first children of Adam and Eve. Their other children left home and created a community where Cain found his wife.

Yes, that sounds a bit silly but that is how a lot of people explain the story.

That is how it was explained to me the one time I asked at church. The church I went to seriously frowned on asking questions like this. You were just supposed to take what you were taught the Bible said and just accept it.

Wasn't Kristina around a couple of days ago, maybe she will come and answer this thread. She believes the Bible is literally true, doesn't she? Is she IFB? Most KJV onlies are.

[valsa]

I was always told that Cain had a sister who he married. That doesn't line up with the Genesis tale. However, some believe that Cain/Abel were not the first children of Adam and Eve. Their other children left home and created a community where Cain found his wife.

Yes, that sounds a bit silly but that is how a lot of people explain the story.

As if that isn't creepy and questionable enough.

I never heard any explanation for the story as a child, but later (as an atheist) read an interpretation that other humans, created by other gods, existed. That was why Cain was worried about being killed by strangers (if Cain killing Abel was the first example of any humans killing, why was he concerned about being killed by others himself, since it should have been a foreign concept to humans? However, if Cain killing Abel was just the first example of murder in just the Christian tribe, it explains his fear better) and where his wife came from.

[AmyP]

I believe the average Christian is either unaware or ignoring the fact that, in many cases, the Bible treats other gods as being real (it's just that the Christian god is better and more powerful) The Christian god created Adam and Eve, but other gods existed. This sort of thing answers questions like where Cain's wives came from. Also, I've seen arguments that, in the story of Moses, the god who hardened the Pharaoh’s heart was not the Christian god (which makes sense because only an asshole would harden a person's heart against doing what he wanted him to do, not that the OT god isn't capable of it)

I don't know- I don't think the bible treats other gods as being real, I think the bible describes the existence of other religious beliefs and practices. In fact, it is a major theme of the OT. I do not recall an instance where the bible suggests that other gods actually existed.

[Cran]

The bible shows different phases of believe in other gods than YHWH alone, many phases are definitely monolatric (there are other gods, but we worship him alone).

[Mama Mia]

I blame all inconsistency on some ancient hidden form of auto-correct :lol:

I've never believed in a literal interpretation - but I don't think you can discount the difficulties of translation and the impact that has on meaning.

I work in an environment where most people are bilingual in Spanish. If I ask 5 of my co-workers to translate a simple memo from English to Spanish I will get 5 different translations. And this is basic concrete information with two living languages, by native speakers of both languages, who are all living in the same time and space.

I can't even imagine how garbled it would all get with thousands of years, a variety of languages, the translators being from different cultures, the message containing emotional content etc etc.

[valsa]

I don't know- I don't think the bible treats other gods as being real, I think the bible describes the existence of other religious beliefs and practices. In fact, it is a major theme of the OT. I do not recall an instance where the bible suggests that other gods actually existed.

Like I said- unaware or ignoring.

The Bible proclaims that the Christian god will pass judgement on the gods of Egypt. It claims that the Christian god is the king above all gods. Even the first of the ten commandants requires people to have no other god before the Christian god, implying there are other gods to put above the Christian one.

The Bible is a story of one of many tribes, created by one of many gods.

[debrand]

[As if that isn't creepy and questionable enough.

I.

This is what I was told.

At the time of Adam and Eve, humans were closer to being perfect than they are now. So, genes hadn't been corrupted enough to make it harmful for brothers and sisters to have children together.

I'm not saying that it isn't messed up but it is an explanation that I've heard.

Here is a long explanation that someone wrote online

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

Biological deformities

Today, brothers and sisters (and half-brothers and half-sisters, etc.) are not permitted by law to marry because their children have an unacceptably high risk of being deformed. The more closely the parents are related, the more likely it is that any offspring will be deformed.

There is a very sound genetic reason for such laws that is easy to understand. Every person has two sets of genes, there being some 130,000 pairs that specify how a person is put together and functions. Each person inherits one gene of each pair from each parent. Unfortunately, genes today contain many mistakes (because of sin and the Curse), and these mistakes show up in a variety of ways. For instance, some people let their hair grow over their ears to hide the fact that one ear is lower than the other—or perhaps someone's nose is not quite in the middle of his or her face, or someone's jaw is a little out of shape—and so on. Let's face it, the main reason we call each other normal is because of our common agreement to do so!

The more distantly related parents are, the more likely it is that they will have different mistakes in their genes. Children, inheriting one set of genes from each parent, are likely to end up with pairs of genes containing a maximum of one bad gene in each pair. The good gene tends to override the bad so that a deformity (a serious one, anyway) does not occur. Instead of having totally deformed ears, for instance, a person may only have crooked ones! (Overall, though, the human race is slowly degenerating as mistakes accumulate, generation after generation.)

However, the more closely related two people are, the more likely it is that they will have similar mistakes in their genes, since these have been inherited from the same parents. Therefore, a brother and a sister are more likely to have similar mistakes in their genes. A child of a union between such siblings could inherit the same bad gene on the same gene pair from both, resulting in two bad copies of the gene and serious defects.

Adam and Eve did not have accumulated genetic mistakes. When the first two people were created, they were physically perfect. Everything God made was “very good†(Genesis 1:31), so their genes were perfect—no mistakes! But, when sin entered the world (because of Adam—Genesis 3:6, Romans 5:12), God cursed the world so that the perfect creation then began to degenerate, that is, suffer death and decay (Romans 8:22). Over thousands of years, this degeneration has produced all sorts of genetic mistakes in living things.

Cain was in the first generation of children ever born. He (as well as his brothers and sisters) would have have received virtually no imperfect genes from Adam or Eve, since the effects of sin and the Curse would have been minimal to start with (it takes time for these copying errors to accumulate). In that situation, brother and sister could have married with God's approval, without any potential to produce deformed offspring

[doggie]

If it was just the animals then I could sort of buy this theory, but it is the creation of Adam and Eve. In one God made them both together, both in His image, and in the other God made Adam, tried to find a companion for Him with the animals, that didn't work, so Even was made out of Adam.

I thought thats why he made sheep what adam did not like sheep?

[AmyP]

Like I said- unaware or ignoring.

The Bible proclaims that the Christian god will pass judgement on the gods of Egypt. It claims that the Christian god is the king above all gods. Even the first of the ten commandants requires people to have no other god before the Christian god, implying there are other gods to put above the Christian one.

The Bible is a story of one of many tribes, created by one of many gods.

Ah- I see what you are referring to. I think unaware or ignoring might be a bit presumptuous. I am aware of these passages, but I disagree with your interpretation. I am not pretending that these passages do not exist, or that your interpretation does not exist. I have considered it and do not agree.

[valsa]

This is what I was told.

At the time of Adam and Eve, humans were closer to being perfect than they are now. So, genes hadn't been corrupted enough to make it harmful for brothers and sisters to have children together.

I'm not saying that it isn't messed up but it is an explanation that I've heard.

Here is a long explanation that someone wrote online

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

Unfortunately, that just looks (rightly) like they're spinning facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts.

Ah- I see what you are referring to. I think unaware or ignoring might be a bit presumptuous. I am aware of these passages, but I disagree with your interpretation. I am not pretending that these passages do not exist, or that your interpretation does not exist. I have considered it and do not agree.

I think you have a vested interest in ignoring the passages. As someone mentioned above, the Bible accepting the existance of other gods is very threatening to many Christians, though I don't know why.

[emmiedahl]

I don't know if organized religion was really a concept at the time. People did not say they were Jewish, but that they worshipped this God as opposed to that one.

How this applies to the argument? Not sure, just wanted to put it out there.

[AmyP]

Unfortunately, that just looks (rightly) like they're spinning facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts.

I think you have a vested interest in ignoring the passages. As someone mentioned above, the Bible accepting the existance of other gods is very threatening to many Christians, though I don't know why.

In the context of the whole Old Testament, which seems to hammer on the "one true God" concept, I don't think that those verse are advocating the belief in one God among a legion of lesser gods. I have read about the polytheistic interpretation, but I don't think it is a very strong argument. As far as my vested interests.... who knows? :|

[Sola]

I think also there are people who are very knowledgable about the bible but how many of them also know judaism, islam and all the other branches. Learning about these other branches brings up more questions about your faith. Then there is the similar, earlier mythology, how many average christians, let alone fundies, are familiar with all that plus the mythology. Add in ancient history and that throws up a whole host of questions about your particular faith.

Take islam for example, muhammed was said to be illiterate. I dont believe that for a second. He was a merchant, and to be a merchent you would be at a huge disadvantage if you couldnt read or write. It woule be unheard of. If you look at the history of writing, it began in its most simplified form among summerian merchants. It developed due to the necessity of keeping records.

Edit, clicked send by accid

,

Without the ability to read and write you couldnt possibly make living being a merchant, so i dont buy it for a minute that muhammed was illiterate and simply memorised what gabriel told him

[formergothardite]

Do we have no members here who believe the Bible is literally true? I know we have some Calvinists, from the Ask a Calvinist thread, do they believe the Bible is completely true?

[Sola]

Really hate tying by pad.

I wouldnt be surprised if muhammed had actually read the jewish and christian scriptures on his travels and was very familiar with them. Now whether he lied or what really happened was lost over the years throu oral tradotion i dont know. But he didnt memorise what gabriel allegedly said.

/offending every muslim on the board

[freejoytoo]

I don't understand how anyone can buy into Mormonism. It seems to me like Joseph Smith made it all up for attention and a reason for people to basically worship America.

/offending Mormons