The Niqab, a sign of devotion or oppression?

[memmy]

a short segment on the local tv station

-- interview with a lady/girl/woman/student wearing the niqab even against her parents wishes.

http://www.citytv.com/brightcovevideo/183423

comments?

[browngrl]

It is not my intention to offend any member of this community who voluntarily chooses the niqab - I offer my opinion (and you know what people say about opinions) because this is a topic I have thought about a lot.

For some reason I get very angry about a niqab. It seems odd that I would be so offended about something that does not direct harm to me and is not something I am being forced to wear. So, I have thought quite a bit about why this garment should offend me so much. I think it comes down to this: once a woman to covers her mouth and face - the next step is to prevent her from being seen or heard. I am wary of "slippery slope" arguments but in this case I find that I do consider a niqab to be a starting point for much more oppression. I understand that some women voluntarily cover themselves to show their devotion to god and this does not help me to feel more positive about this garment. I think: what kind of god would want to do this? Not any god I can believe in.

I am troubled by my opinion. I wish I could see the good side of the niqab. However I do not. I can't help but feel that it is the badge of misogyny. I would be deeply disappointed if one of my relative chose this garment.

Perhaps there are niqab wearers who could provide me information that would make me change my mind.

[clibbyjo]

I got "error" with that link

[Clementine]

It is not my intention to offend any member of this community who voluntarily chooses the niqab - I offer my opinion (and you know what people say about opinions) because this is a topic I have thought about a lot.

For some reason I get very angry about a niqab. It seems odd that I would be so offended about something that does not direct harm to me and is not something I am being forced to wear. So, I have thought quite a bit about why this garment should offend me so much. I think it comes down to this: once a woman to covers her mouth and face - the next step is to prevent her from being seen or heard. I am wary of "slippery slope" arguments but in this case I find that I do consider a niqab to be a starting point for much more oppression. I understand that some women voluntarily cover themselves to show their devotion to god and this does not help me to feel more positive about this garment. I think: what kind of god would want to do this? Not any god I can believe in.

I am troubled by my opinion. I wish I could see the good side of the niqab. However I do not. I can't help but feel that it is the badge of misogyny. I would be deeply disappointed if one of my relative chose this garment.

Perhaps there are niqab wearers who could provide me information that would make me change my mind.

^^ This! I would have a different opinion if muslim men had something equivalent to wear (or had to wear) to show their faith, stay modest and not tempt the other gender.

[memmy]

hmm try this clibbyjo

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/ ... 0c.twitter

:)

[valsa]

Without being a hypocrite, I can only be as angry/annoyed by the niqab as I am about the scarves/whatever that fundies use to cover their hair.

[salsa]

In our city, there are quite a few Muslims who dress in varying degrees of hajib. I've never quite come to terms with any of it (nor fundy Christians or Orthodox Jews) because it represents (huge caveat here - I'm fully admitting to my own subjectivity in this arena) to me a sign of Kool Aid drinking, with women buying into the belief system that objectifies them as much as Hooter's objectifies women. That is, that women are identified primarily as servants who are so sexual that they are either 1) to be ogled openly, 2) to be hidden so no one ogles them, because, of course, there is no other option than ogling or not ogling.

As an aside, though I respect the full right for women to cover whatever they want to cover for whatever reason they want to cover, I confess to having some uneasiness in the fuller covers. It seems rude to me* to converse with people who dont' think enough of you to show their face. They get to see mine, but I don't get to see them. (this is in my work, at a place that attracts a pretty wide variety of people with a pretty wide variety of beliefs)

I wonder if they feel somewhat self-conscious (especially at first)? Anna T indicated that she still feels self-conscious. I know I probably would - the same way I feel self conscious on Ash Wednesday, when I'm obviously identified as 1) a Christian and 2) an Ash Wednesday-observing Christian, while living with the dichotomy of having been enjoined, in the Ash Wednesday service, to beware of practicing piety before people...

but now I've started to ramble.

eta: * this is me, and me only. purely subjective reaction. nothing more.

[CanadianHippie]

I can only be angry about the niqab when it's forced on the woman. I also get angry about people who think they have a right to force a woman not to wear one in the name of fighting oppression. Telling a woman what she is allowed to wear, or not allowed to wear, is an attempt at oppressing her.

[Sunnichick31]

For some reason it won't let me watch the video (probably crappy wifi connecton, oh well.) so I can't comment on that.

It's NOT oppression if a woman is choosing to wear it. If a woman is forced into it, then it is oppression, but when it's a choice it is liberating because I know that I am pleasing my Lord and also because I know that I am being judged based on who I am rather than how attractive I am.

Mind if I derail this a bit? I don't want to start a whole new niqab thread.

http://globalgrind.com/news/La-Fleur-Mo ... veil-video

A Muslim woman was denied service at a gas station because of her niqab. Personally I think it's absurd. I mean, she is obviously not there to rob the place when she is handing them money, and when she called the cops herself. (I don't see what the police could have done about the situation, but whatever.) I understand that Chevron might be a little wary of people covering their faces, but get real. A niqab, hijab and abaya will cost $50 minimum (if you get the cheap crap that'll fall apart after 2 washings). Is a thief really going to spend $50 (more if you have to buy it online with shipping costs) or are they going to go to walmart and spend $5 on a ski mask? A niqab is not a security risk. And why the heck would you have to verify identity to buy gasoline!!??!!

[crazyforkate]

I don't agree with women being forced to wear niqab/any other type of clothing, religious or not. I also do not agree with laws banning such covers (except when there are safety concerns, such as allowing more visibility while driving). It really depends on whose decision it is and the motivations behind it. I worked with a woman last summer who wore hijab, and had family who wore niqab. To them, voluntarily taken, it was a symbol of commitment to their faith, but none of them agreed with forcing it on anyone.

[Kelya]

I'm going to quote Faustian Slip from the thread titled "Burka Eating."

As far as niqab goes, I would definitely feel uncomfortable if I went to see the doctor or a shrink, and they turned up with their face completely covered. Culturally, I think most Westerners are conditioned to look at the whole face to read mood, expressions, et cetera. It's normal to be a little weirded out initially if you've never seen someone in niqab, and I think when you're in a vulnerable position, say in a doctor's office, it's totally reasonable to want to see someone with whom you'd feel most comfortable. For that reason, I probably wouldn't go to a doctor that wore a full niqab. Other people might prefer a doctor who covered, so they can go to someone that fits that bill. I certainly wouldn't assume ill intent or something because someone was wearing a niqab, it's just something that takes getting used to. People can do whatever floats their boat, so far as I'm concerned, as long as it's not hurting anyone else and they're doing it of their own volition.

That pretty much sums it up for me.

[aelar]

And why the heck would you have to verify identity to buy gasoline!!??!!

You have to verify your identity to use a credit card in many places. Usually not if you're at the pump, but you do if you hand a card to a cashier in person. I'm asked less and less often, but I do think businesses have a right to request identification before accepting non-cash payment and to refuse service if the person is not willing to both produce identification and uncover enough of their face to prove that they match their ID. But I think requiring ID needs to be universal for that business, not on a case-by-case basis, to prevent religious or other discrimination.

In places where visual confirmation of ID is required of everyone, the fact that someone covers their face for religious reasons should not allow them to avoid showing their face (but once fingerprint or iris readers become common, this conflict should disappear). But otherwise, I defend people's right to wear whatever they want, for whatever reason they want.

That said, I also believe that any religion or culture that requires you to cover your face in order to be considered a good person is flawed and wrong. About the face covering certainly, and possibly about other things. (It is even worse when face covering is required of women only.) There should be laws in place that prohibit anyone from being forced by another person to cover their face.

My personal feeling about niquab is informed by my experiences in over twenty years of 'guerilla' live-action role playing. I have spent the majority of my Friday nights running around busy public streets, dressed up in all manner of getup, including at times costumes that included a mask or other face covering, and I have had characters were specifically Muslim, and I wore hijab and occasionally niquab for those characters. (I've also been a conservative Jew, a wacky fundamentalist, a blind rock star, and other characters that were very different from myself, but I can say that I play these characters in an attempt to go outside myself, and to have fun and challenge my thinking, without intent to reinforce stereotypes or be insulting or offensive in any way.) I have also played with people who at various times have played characters that covered their hair or their face either because of religion, or to represent deformity, hide identity, or just add an aura of mystery or as a fashion choice.

While my interactions while covering have mostly been with other members of my game, I also couldn't help but interact a bit with passers-by, with the baristas at Starbucks, occasionally with police, press, or other people curious about what the weirdos were doing. And I have to say that covering my face is a very very VERY different thing from covering my hair. It constricts my movement and my field of vision, making me feel more vulnerable and clumsy. People tend to avoid me, and talk to me less. It makes me seem threatening to others, and just in general creates an emotional distance. It is harder to 'make friends'. And these are people who have known me for years!

Not being able to read a person's face is alienating, it keeps people away. I have noticed a similar, but lesser discomfort when interacting with people while I have on faux facial tattoos. Obscuring the face weirds people out, with good cause. There is so much non-verbal that we say with our expressions, that covering/distorting makes communication more difficult. And I think that is part of the point of niquab and that makes me very very sad.

None of these are reasons why it should be banned, in my opinion, but face covering is to me, in a different category from head or hair covering, or any other form of modest dress, that just makes a person look odd, but leaves their face alone. And it is so different to me, as to be a form of abuse to require it.

[Sunnichick31]

She was using cash though, not a card. If she was using a card I'd understand needing to verify identity.

[CanadianHippie]

Not being able to read a person's face is alienating, it keeps people away. I have noticed a similar, but lesser discomfort when interacting with people while I have on faux facial tattoos. Obscuring the face weirds people out, with good cause. There is so much non-verbal that we say with our expressions, that covering/distorting makes communication more difficult. And I think that is part of the point of niquab and that makes me very very sad.

That is based entirely on how often you deal with people who have some form of face covering. Mouth and nose don't say anything the eyes can't convey.

[Mama Mia]

Slightly off topic - it is interesting how reading peoples faces and eye contact - or the lack of eye contact - is so important in conversation.. But if you think about it you manage to interact on-line and by phone with people without these clues and it goes okay.

I remember once I was on a panel doing job interviews and one of the qualities they wanted was "bi-cultural" - which in this context meant Latina ( specifically Mexican ). One thing that bothered some of the interviewers were a couple of applicants who "weren't making enough eye contact ..they don't seem confident " - but those were the applicants who were actually bi-cultural. I thought it was kind of funny.

[Boogalou]

Slightly off topic - it is interesting how reading peoples faces and eye contact - or the lack of eye contact - is so important in conversation.. But if you think about it you manage to interact on-line and by phone with people without these clues and it goes okay.

I remember once I was on a panel doing job interviews and one of the qualities they wanted was "bi-cultural" - which in this context meant Latina ( specifically Mexican ). One thing that bothered some of the interviewers were a couple of applicants who "weren't making enough eye contact ..they don't seem confident " - but those were the applicants who were actually bi-cultural. I thought it was kind of funny.

It is interesting that you bring up being able to understand people on the phone. If I recall correctly there was a study done with men with large moustaches. While they were well understood on the phone they were not well understood in real life, apparently due to the moustaches.

[emmiedahl]

Face covering, even partial, makes it hard to see microexpressions that are a huge part of communication. A lot of communication and expression comes from the muscles around your mouth. Most of the Muslim women in my area have their faces uncovered, though. They wear headscarves similar to the ones Jewish women sometimes wear, except that they are wrapped to cover their neck and shoulders.

I don't see why the store refused to take the customer's money. If she is already in your store with money in hand, she obviously is not there to rob you. Racism and/or xenophobia seem like the only plausible explanation.

[xDreamerx]

^^ This! I would have a different opinion if muslim men had something equivalent to wear (or had to wear) to show their faith, stay modest and not tempt the other gender.

I agree. I also agree with the poster who added that in Western culture we are used to seeing people's faces so it can make people uncomfortable. The idea of not seeing a person's face makes me a little uneasy. Not because I think they would harm me, but just because I wouldn't know how to approach them or speak to them. Is the woman smiling? Does she want to talk? Or is she looking disinterested and wanting to move along? I suppose you can use tone of voice to figure it out but that would be harder. It would be like a kind of blindness when trying to interact. There was a woman in my class last year who wore it and I wanted to talk to her, but the fact that her face was covered made it feel weird to even say hello. For me it gives off a stand-offish impression/vibe.

Also, I think it's dehumanizing and an attempt to make women invisible almost. It's one thing to dress 'modestly' or cover one's hair (I don't really agree with that either because I think the logic behind it is misogynist but that's another topic), but to cover one's face, especially the mouth...for me it's visual removal of agency and personhood.

[fakepigtails73]

It is not my intention to offend any member of this community who voluntarily chooses the niqab - I offer my opinion (and you know what people say about opinions) because this is a topic I have thought about a lot.

For some reason I get very angry about a niqab. It seems odd that I would be so offended about something that does not direct harm to me and is not something I am being forced to wear. So, I have thought quite a bit about why this garment should offend me so much. I think it comes down to this: once a woman to covers her mouth and face - the next step is to prevent her from being seen or heard. I am wary of "slippery slope" arguments but in this case I find that I do consider a niqab to be a starting point for much more oppression. I understand that some women voluntarily cover themselves to show their devotion to god and this does not help me to feel more positive about this garment. I think: what kind of god would want to do this? Not any god I can believe in.

I am troubled by my opinion. I wish I could see the good side of the niqab. However I do not. I can't help but feel that it is the badge of misogyny. I would be deeply disappointed if one of my relative chose this garment.

Perhaps there are niqab wearers who could provide me information that would make me change my mind.

So do I. I'm creeped out by niquabs and burkas. On the other hand I barely notice women wearing hijabs anymore.

In my mind someone wearing a niquab is akin to sending a giant middle finger to society.

[emmiedahl]

So do I. I'm creeped out by niquabs and burkas. On the other hand I barely notice women wearing hijabs anymore.

In my mind someone wearing a niquab is akin to sending a giant middle finger to society.

How is it a fuck you to society? They are wearing it either from personal conviction that affects 'society' in no way or because they are pressured to do so. Either way, it has nothing to do with telling society to fuck off. Do you see Islam as a counter-culture like skateboarding or something? This is their faith, their culture, their view of the world and their place in it.

I don't prefer talking to people I cannot see, but I would never dream that a woman is doing it just to be a rebel or to annoy me. We will never be able to live peacefully with each other while we make assumptions like that.

[ladypuglover]

I have a question about women who wear Niqab and other things that cover their faces. Do they wear them to gat photo IDs or do they have to remove them to get the ID? If they are not allowed to wear them at the time of the photo will they have to remove the cloth covering their face every time they use the ID?

I know stupid question but just wondering on my part.

[emmiedahl]

I use my debit card mostly so I rarely have to show ID. I imagine that they ask for a female to take the picture in a private area, and then show it and their face to females only when necessary. At least, that is the compromise that I would think is best.

[lizzy]

I have a question about women who wear Niqab and other things that cover their faces. Do they wear them to gat photo IDs or do they have to remove them to get the ID? If they are not allowed to wear them at the time of the photo will they have to remove the cloth covering their face every time they use the ID?

I know stupid question but just wondering on my part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niq%C4%81b#United_States

The niqab in its extreme forms is uncommon in the US, though sometimes seen in larger cities.[55] In 2002, Sultaana Freeman, (aka Sandra Keller, who converted to Islam in 1997 when marrying a Muslim man) sued the U.S. state of Florida for the right to wear a niqab for her driver's license photo.[47] However, a Florida appellate court ruled that there was no violation in the state requiring her to show her face to a camera in a private room with only a female employee to take the picture, in exchange for the privilege of driving. The prevailing view in Florida is currently that hiding one's face on a form of photo identification defeats the purpose of having the picture taken,[47] although 15 other states (including Arkansas, California, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, and Louisiana) have provisions that allow for driver's licenses absent of an identifying photograph in order to accommodate individuals who may have a religious reason to not have a photograph taken.[56]

[Kelya]

I have a question about women who wear Niqab and other things that cover their faces. Do they wear them to gat photo IDs or do they have to remove them to get the ID? If they are not allowed to wear them at the time of the photo will they have to remove the cloth covering their face every time they use the ID?

I know stupid question but just wondering on my part.

I live in New England and had to take off my glasses, earrings, and headband today for an ID photo and actually was wondering this. Here's a link to a summary of license regulations regarding religious coverings: http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/li ... s/LWVJ.pdf

[julie paradox]

Do your credit cards have photos on?