Help me, O Potterphiles

[Conuly]

So while I agree she could be a bitch at times, I'm not really sure where the manipulation comes in - I mean, she did manipulate situations, but the ones I'm thinking of were all things she did to help her friends. Can you give me an example of what you mean? I admittedly haven't read some of the books in ages so I've probably forgotten a lot of stuff.

That whole thing with the pimples on the snitch's face with the DA. She didn't even warn anybody that signing their names to the list meant they would face lasting repercussions if they told.

Walking around trying to trick the house elves into freeing themselves. We can argue the morality of their very existence in the books, it was still an awful thing to do given that the ones in Hogwarts, at least, WERE happy and well-treated.

Blackmailing Rita Skeeter. Yes, she's an awful person, but blackmail is still immoral.

Attacking Ron with those birds in book 6. This is not the mark of a healthy relationship, when you harm somebody just because "he had it coming". The girl's got a real vindictive streak.

She constantly lies to her parents throughout the books as well, although a few side comments indicate that's hardly unusual for muggleborn students at Hogwarts. That raises an interesting question: Did she come clean and explain the situation before altering her parents' memories and sending them to Australia, or did she just assume she knew best and do it without their consent? (That MIGHT still be a moral choice, but it's definitely on the dubious side.)

I'm not saying that she couldn't grow out of it, or at least have those traits mellow. Their time at school was enough, I think, to test anybody's moral code. But really, these are just things I can think of off the top of my head.

[AuntCloud]

Conuly, very interesting insights.

Also, can anyone elaborate on why Harry and Ron are young douchebags? I've always felt it, but too tired and distracted right now to articulate.

Also - how come the parents of muggle-born students just ship them off to an unknown boarding school when they hit 11? A boarding school with no open houses, when they're expected to say goodbye at platform 9 3/4 and are not even allowed to drive them to school and see them settle in?

[Vex]

I guess I think that she meant well in most of the examples you give, Conuly: wanting to protect her parents, wanting to help the elves, wanting to protect DA from traitors.

I see her as being maybe morally arrogant rather than manipulative. She might not have the right to make decisions for everyone, but she's motivated by a desire to help and to protect. She always has been a know-it-all. I agree she has a very vindictive streak, though. I can understand wanting to identify who the snitch was for DA, for example, but the way it was done was vindictive.

I think the treatment of muggle parents by students (and the school) is generally poor. I doubt Hermione explained everything to her parents first in case they were found and made to tell. In that way Harry would be protected and he could go on to finish the Horcrux quest. I think by that point in the story Hermione was willing to sacrifice just about everything to make sure Voldemort was stopped. I could be totally wrong, it was never explained in detail. Maybe she did tell them and they gave her their blessing.

can anyone elaborate on why Harry and Ron are young douchebags? I've always felt it, but too tired and distracted right now to articulate

Well, I can't speak for anyone else but my reasons for thinking that are:

- Harry is disrespectful. Yes, Snape had it out for him from the beginning, but even after he finds out that Snape had been helping him all along in the first book he never shows any gratitude or attempts to show Snape more respect or even improve his behaviour. He constantly flouts school rules with no regard to his own safety or the safety of others.

- Harry is arrogant. He assumes he knows his father better than Snape did, and assumes Snape must have had it coming if his father treated him badly. He ignores Dumbledore and Snape's warnings about the importance of occlumency and legilimency and directly leads Sirius to his death because of it. He's also dismissive and rude to Luna, Colin and Neville numerous times (sometimes out loud, sometimes just in his head) in spite of them being incredibly kind and loyal towards him. Basically, he's guilty of a lot of the things Snape accuses him of being.

- Ron is a jerk for many reasons. He gets angry with Harry over things completely out of his control and has abandoned Harry (for reasons that are pretty petty, imo) at times where he really needed support, such as during the Triwizard Tournament and during the hunt for the Horcruxes. He came back and helped Harry at the critical moment both times, but both times he needed to be prompted (he wouldn't have gotten the clue to Harry without 'Moody' and he wouldn't have reached Harry at the pond in time if not for Snape). He has really infantile mood swings and takes them out on everyone closest to him, and he has a history of treating girls badly (Lavender, Hermione, Padma).

There are other examples, but those are the major reasons I think they're both kind of douchey. Harry grows up a lot in the last two books, though, and I like who he became.

[freejoytoo]

I like how all the Harry Potter characters have flaws, it makes them so real.

I love Harry, Ron and Hermione. I can't think of a main character I actively dislike apart from Snape.

[JesusFightClub]

Hermione sounds to me like a comrade. The house elves issue is a case in point.

I see her as a Trotskyist. It's how we would see things.

[Conuly]

Also - how come the parents of muggle-born students just ship them off to an unknown boarding school when they hit 11? A boarding school with no open houses, when they're expected to say goodbye at platform 9 3/4 and are not even allowed to drive them to school and see them settle in?

Did you notice that after book 3 Hermione apparently never goes home? She's constantly ditching her family to spend time with Ron's family instead.

Vex, even if she meant well that doesn't mean her actions weren't manipulative. It's possible for people to have good intentions and still do bad things to reach their ends.

[CynicMom]

I see her as being maybe morally arrogant rather than manipulative.

[...]

- Harry is disrespectful.

[...]

- Harry is arrogant.

[...]

- Ron is a jerk for many reasons.

THIS! I was a Snape fan-girl from the beginning. It REALLY rubbed me the wrong way that Snape was stereotyped by the main trio from the beginning. So he favors Slytherin. So he's proud of his heritage. So what? There's a grain of truth in the idea that Harry hates the man due primarily to his failure to fall all over him.

Stereotypes are mean and cruel. Hermione shouldn't have had to deal with muggle prejudice (which the books dealt with directly). Ron shouldn't have had to deal with class prejudice (which the books dealt with directly). For multiple books though Snape gets to deal with the assumption that he's in league with Voldemort just because he disfavors Harry in class.

[JesusFightClub]

I think this is true - Snape's not a Harry fanboy so Harry doesn't like him.

What gets me about the character of Harry is his general ingratitude. He seems to swan through life with entitlement issues. People *have* to help him once he discovers he is The Boy Who Lived. He doesn't really recover from this till the end of the last book.

I liked Luna as a character and thought she was underplayed. I didn't precisely *like* Snape or most of the Slytherins (Bellatrix and Narcissa come to mind as interesting characters) but I thought they had more depth and interest than most of the "good guys" who you are supposed to like.

[Minerva]

I don't understand the Snape fangirls either. He's not described as being even in the least big physically attractive. How would you kiss him without his hair grease getting all over you? I can see them liking his personality once his character gets deep, but as someone said upthread, the fangirls totally twist him into a character of their own invention. He's certainly not blameless in his treatment of Harry and friends, or in his calling Lily a Mudblood, or in his joining of the Death Eaters.

His backstory came as a complete surprise to me. I am admittedly not a very intuitive person, but the whole first 5 books I thought he was just supposed to represent how people can be law-abiding and yet totally cruel. I didn't like him even when it was revealed that the Marauders bullied him. I spent most of book 6 in denial as to what he was about to do because I was determined to believe in this lesson about law-abiding mean people I thought Rowling was trying to teach us. I should have put 2 and 2 together and known there was going to be something deeper to him. Former Death Eater whom Dumbledore trusts completely but won't tell us why (dingdingding!), victimized by the people the protagonist idolizes, blatantly sucking up to the students whose parents are Death Eaters even though this is thoroughly unnecessary for him to spy for Dumbledore...how did I assume he was just another character?

I think Dumbledore's sometimes awful staff appointments demonstrate, among other things, how small the wizarding population in the UK is. When people calculate approximately how many students Hogwarts has, they usually arrive at 200 something. Even you assumed there were another 50 homeschooling wizarding families out there, that gives you a pretty small wizarding community. I can see why Dumbledore would have a hard time finding people willing to live in Hogwarts or Hogmeade the whole school year, let alone in a teaching position that is rumoured to be cursed. To his credit, it seems his hands were tied when it came to hiring Umbridge. This is OT, but I think the "Dumbledore kept Snape away from DADA because he was afraid he'd be tempted" line wasn't true. Snape used it to deflect the suspicions of other Death Eaters, and I've no doubt he liked the subject, but I think Dumbledore just didn't give him the position because Dumbledore was among the few to know for a fact that it was cursed (by Voldemort no less). And he's not about to give a cursed job to a professor he needs to keep.

[acheronbeach]

I'm a Snape fangirl. I'm sure IRL he'd be intensely horrible and unlikeable, but who cares? A complicated asshole - played in the movie by someone awesome and not greasy and gross - is easy to romanticize. Same goes for Draco Malfoy and Lucius Malfoy - I don't particularly like them, but both are pretty good looking, and it's easy to romanticize a pair of assholes as damaged and in need of redemption.

[Sweetpea1]

"I could change him. Those other bitches just don't UNDERSTAND him, but I would. He's such a misunderstood, victimised person, and the fact that he is three-dimensional and has had pain in his past means that everything he does is justified and awesome. Also he's probably actually sexy. He's rude to pretty much everyone, but I know he'd like me, teehee!"

Pretty much this... something along the lines of "He is hurting, I can help." I like the character because I like the arc, but, yeah, he'd be a pain IRL.

[Patsy]

Pretty much this... something along the lines of "He is hurting, I can help." I like the character because I like the arc, but, yeah, he'd be a pain IRL.

The horrible part is, I was talking about it with my mother the other day, and she said (99% seriously), "Yes, but that's the thing, I think if he'd met me I really would have changed him." MUM. NO.

[Frumpalicious]

I like Snape because of his depth. I think JK Rowling could write another seven books (okay, maybe three or four) on Snape's early life, Hogwarts, and entry into the Death Eaters. It would be a very dark read, but I like that. Snape has the right mixture of cunning and intelligence. Otherwise he would have never risen to Voldemort's inner circle. He's a competent wizard. Look at his Occlumency skills. If he didn't have the will and knowledge to succeed, he would have been caught, tortured, and killed.

[Lainey]

I don't really get anyone thinking Snape is sexy (but then again, though I like him as an actor, I don't find Alan Rickman sexy, either), but I do like the character. He's very complex and interesting.

But my absolute favourite character is Neville, followed closely by Luna. I just loved Neville. ;)

[Loveday]

But my absolute favourite character is Neville, followed closely by Luna. I just loved Neville. ;)

I just watched Deathly Hallows 2 last night for the first time in ages, and I actually got a little teary-eyed when Neville came through the portrait hole at Aberforth's. His character evolved beautifully through the films (and even more so the books, of course!), didn't it? I think he's my favourite character, too. :dance:

[Lainey]

I just watched Deathly Hallows 2 last night for the first time in ages, and I actually got a little teary-eyed when Neville came through the portrait hole at Aberforth's. His character evolved beautifully through the films (and even more so the books, of course!), didn't it? I think he's my favourite character, too. :dance:

Yes, his character did evolve beautifully. :) I love Neville so much. I wanted him to marry Luna, though, lol!

[Naga Viper]

I just watched Deathly Hallows 2 last night for the first time in ages, and I actually got a little teary-eyed when Neville came through the portrait hole at Aberforth's. His character evolved beautifully through the films (and even more so the books, of course!), didn't it?

Especially literally. I believe it was around Order of the Phoenix (the film) that I found myself sitting up in the theater and thinking, "Holy shit, when did Matthew Lewis become hot?"

[Minerva]

Especially literally. I believe it was around Order of the Phoenix (the film) that I found myself sitting up in the theater and thinking, "Holy shit, when did Matthew Lewis become hot?"

Eh, I didn't find any of the male Potter actors remarkably hot. I've sort of got a thing for Daniel Radcliffe because he's Daniel Radcliffe, but even his looks ended up disappointing me. Matthew Lewis was a surprise, though. He was the last actor I thought would have girls cooing over him.

[Loveday]

Yes, his character did evolve beautifully. :) I love Neville so much. I wanted him to marry Luna, though, lol!

Me, too! :lol:

Especially literally. I believe it was around Order of the Phoenix (the film) that I found myself sitting up in the theater and thinking, "Holy shit, when did Matthew Lewis become hot?"

You mean...

;)

[breadprincess]

I don't get Snape.

Well, I do, I just don't get the appeal. I think he's a brilliantly-written character, very well-rounded, and St. Alan does an awesome job of playing him in the movies. But I don't get why people like Snape as a person.

Up until around the fifth book, I never once thought Snape was particularly awesome. I mean, shit, he was a giant asshole, possibly the biggest one in the series barring Voldemort. I did like him in OOTP whenever he and Umbridge were on the same page, but that's about it. I didn't really begin to like him until the later part of Deathly Hallows, when he stopped being such a douchnozzle. Then again, I didn't like him until he was dead and then the Prince's Tale...

Anyway, I don't get the Snape fangirls. At all. He's not sexy (in the books, anyway, and it's not like St. Alan had to be prettyfied in order to play him- sort of the opposite, imo), he's a raging dickhead most of the series, and it seems to be because of a grudge he's holding against a guy who's been dead for about 16 years. I ran into the fangirls well before DH, books or movies, and fuuuuuuck were they annoying.

What's the appeal?! I'd also like to know why Draco and Lucius Malfoy are supposed to be so appealing too- they're fucking Death Eaters, major assfaces as well, and it seems the only thing going for them is that they're both tired of being kicked around by Voldemort and are played by rather good-lucking actors.

I have always liked Snape because I knew from the first time I read Harry Potter that he wasn't going to be a bad guy- when book 7 came out I pretty much screamed I KNEW IT! He was my favorite character, along with Hermione, from age 10 onward.

[Naga Viper]

You mean...

;)

Yeah, that. But then I like Brits, so the movies are teeming with eye candy for me, both among the thankfully-now-legal kid actors (ML, Tom Felton, Devon Murray) and the adults (Jason Isaacs and Sir Alan). Okay, I like 'em pasty. :lol:

That said, I don't get the Snape/Malfoy fangirling either, for the reasons that have already been covered here. Was that a phenomenon before the movies happened? The one glitch in the film version of Snape is that he's a bit de-greased from the books; I wonder if making him grosser would've made a difference.

[Boogalou]

Admittedly, that isn't the best picture of any of the other actors, but still, the picture makes a good point.

[Minerva]

Admittedly, that isn't the best picture of any of the other actors, but still, the picture makes a good point.

Yeah, Dan looks like an Inferius in that picture, and ML is the only one who looks like he showered that morning. Still, he IS the best looking of the four.

[JesusFightClub]

They all look rather sweet, but like my younger brothers ;) Finding them sexy would be illegal in every country I can think of... :lol:

[Kitty]

Especially literally. I believe it was around Order of the Phoenix (the film) that I found myself sitting up in the theater and thinking, "Holy shit, when did Matthew Lewis become hot?"

That's what I was thinking, too, though he was already getting pretty cute in Goblet of Fire.

I never found Tom Felton particularly hot, so I never understood the girls who would go nuts over him. Probably because of that oddly 90s-ish haircut he adopted around Prisoner of Azkaban.