Half Hispanics don't exist Famy

[ohpotteryourotter]

I also sometimes call myself half-hispanic and it seems the only people who find it "incorrect" or "offensive" are people who aren't hispanic/latino/whatever themselves. O.o

[Deleted03]

Wow, I have only ever heard Latino to refer to people from Latin America.

yes in the US it refers to people from Latin America O_o I don't get the including people from Europe and every Latino would be on your ass for that. It is certainly not the latino identity. Some people in Chile and Argentina (actually Brazilians don't consider themselves latino as far as I can tell) don't like too much the identity and don't necessarily relate - because they feel too close to European culture.

French and Spaniards and Portuguese are not latino. There's a difference between our mothertongues being from Latin (by the way Romanians should be included too in that case) and the fact that North America has a lump term for everyone under the Mexican northern border...

[Nesomja]

That isn't entirely true. "Oriental" can be offensive in the UK, too, though not as much as in the US (here's an example: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 63204.html ).

I'm with rachel333. Oriental sounds old-fashioned and slightly offensive in England- I would never use it. Asian does usually refer to Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi origins though, for places like China or Japan we would be more likely to used Chinese or Japanese.

All these words are used differently in different places and are offensive to different ears depending on the context. There is no definitive answer. We would rarely use Hispanic in England and certainly I have never heard Latino used to refer to French people - a Latin culture maybe, but not Latinos.

[kamcho_papio]

I'm not in any of the above categories, but many of my friends and acquaintances over the years have preferred the word Hispanic over Latino, although on occasion, sometimes people prefer a nation of origin, if it's relevant. Many people were of colonial Spanish and mestizo descent but whose families were part of the settlements that had been in place since before the US was independent. Some spoke Spanish, some didn't. But they preferred Hispanic over Latino because it referred to a culture that didn't have a national origin in the conventional sense.

First and second generation friends who preferred Hispanic said that Latino was too ambiguous, although some did prefer the latter term. I often use both terms, often going back and forth between the terms within paragraphs (this happens fairly often--I teach social sciences).

Of course, the definition of what "counts" as Hispanic is also radically flexible: I read an article that implied that because Mitt Romney's father was born in Mexico to expat Mormon fundies but left as a five year old (and never had Mexican citizenship), Mittens himself might "count" as Hispanic. :?:

[BloodyIbiza]

Some people in Chile and Argentina (actually Brazilians don't consider themselves latino as far as I can tell) don't like too much the identity and don't necessarily relate - because they feel too close to European culture.

... the fact that North America has a lump term for everyone under the Mexican northern border...

Yup, I can see why some people in chile and argentina may not " relate" to Latino. As for Brazilians...well, I do think we are ( as a country) ethnically mixed enough that Latino would apply more than european, or something else. I also feel that the history and culture are somewhat similar: centuries of colonialism/genocide, followed by oligarchic/populistic/dictatorship governments, roman catholicism, love of soap operas(JK!), being the "aim" of the "good neighbour policies" (and a nice playground too!), and more recently the Mercosul.

But maybe, Latino is more of a diaspora identity really?

[lilwriter85]

I also sometimes call myself half-hispanic and it seems the only people who find it "incorrect" or "offensive" are people who aren't hispanic/latino/whatever themselves. O.o

I'm a mestizo Hispanic. The reason I find it incorrect is because a Hispanic race doesn't exist.

[Deleted03]

Yup, I can see why some people in chile and argentina may not " relate" to Latino. As for Brazilians...well, I do think we are ( as a country) ethnically mixed enough that Latino would apply more than european, or something else. I also feel that the history and culture are somewhat similar: centuries of colonialism/genocide, followed by oligarchic/populistic/dictatorship governments, roman catholicism, love of soap operas(JK!), being the "aim" of the "good neighbour policies" (and a nice playground too!), and more recently the Mercosul.

But maybe, Latino is more of a diaspora identity really?

oh yeah, totally I just never met a brazilian in Brazil or in Canada that would call themselves latino :P well maybe you're the first haha. It might be easier as an identity for people that don't know you (or think that Brazilians speak spanish) + all the carnivals imaginary and all...

I still think Brazil has a really distinct identity :P Is Caminho das Indias still on?

[aelar]

I'm a mestizo Hispanic. The reason I find it incorrect is because a Hispanic race doesn't exist.

You're welcome to identify as whatever you want to identify. To me, if someone told me they were mestizo Hispanic, I would assume that both their parents came from some sort of Spanish-speaking latin american country, and either both parents were half-white, half-indigenous native or one parent was Hispanic white and the other was Hispanic native. (edited to add-- I might also assume that their parents came from different countries, perhaps, or that the person was very proud of their native ancestors, because most Mexicans are some kind of mestizo anyway, just usually so mixed up from generations of intermixing, that picking apart our native ancestry is hard. I'm not sure how mestizo is used in other Latin-American diaspora communities though.)

That is a very different thing than having one Hispanic parent, of whatever racial makeup, native, white, or mestizo, and one non-Hispanic white parent, which is what I assume someone means when they say half-Hispanic (and that's why I refer to myself that way). I agree that there isn't really a Hispanic race, but you can be half an ethnicity just as easily as half a race.

[fakepigtails73]

I thought Latino included Italians, Spanish, Portuguese?

I live in a majorly Hispanic area and use it all the time, as do many government forms and local offices. It is used on the US census. It describes a group of people in a more succinct way. Should I say Latino (sometimes I do...), which includes a larger group of people, or a term that includes a much smaller group? Sometimes you need to describe a population and "Hispanic" is the preferred term of many.

In my part "Latino" includes Spanish-speaking people (from Europe and the Americas) + Portuguese. No French or Italian (one can call these languages "Roman" as well) I'm French and I was never called "latina". I've heard Mexicans and Puerto Ricans called "latinos", but never French-Canadians.

The mix-up comes from the fact that Spanish, French, Italian and Portuguese languages come from Latin. Add Romanian to these; the Romanian language is the one closest to the original Latin, according to some linguists.

[lilwriter85]

You're welcome to identify as whatever you want to identify. To me, if someone told me they were mestizo Hispanic, I would assume that both their parents came from some sort of Spanish-speaking latin american country, and either both parents were half-white, half-indigenous native or one parent was Hispanic white and the other was Hispanic native. (edited to add-- I might also assume that their parents came from different countries, perhaps, or that the person was very proud of their native ancestors, because most Mexicans are some kind of mestizo anyway, just usually so mixed up from generations of intermixing, that picking apart our native ancestry is hard. I'm not sure how mestizo is used in other Latin-American diaspora communities though.)

That is a very different thing than having one Hispanic parent, of whatever racial makeup, native, white, or mestizo, and one non-Hispanic white parent, which is what I assume someone means when they say half-Hispanic (and that's why I refer to myself that way). I agree that there isn't really a Hispanic race, but you can be half an ethnicity just as easily as half a race.

The mestizo culture/group is sort of hard to explain. I belong is connected to the groups of mestizos who have lived in northern New Mexico and southern Colorado since the 1600's. These groups are sometimes referred to as Hispanos, they lived in isolation from the rest of the Spanish Empire for a long time before Mexican Independence and the Mexican-American war. Some of the ancestors were Spanish settlers from Spain, some were mestizos from Mexico and some were Native Americans from the Pueblo Indian groups, Apaches, Comanches, and Utes and later on some of my female mestizo ancestors married French trappers during the 1800's. The Hispanic culture I belong to is very different when it comes to Spanish dialect and certain traditions. A lot of people don't know about my culture that much because it isn't too mainstream and it is still somewhat isolated.

[ohpotteryourotter]

You're welcome to identify as whatever you want to identify. To me, if someone told me they were mestizo Hispanic, I would assume that both their parents came from some sort of Spanish-speaking latin american country, and either both parents were half-white, half-indigenous native or one parent was Hispanic white and the other was Hispanic native. (edited to add-- I might also assume that their parents came from different countries, perhaps, or that the person was very proud of their native ancestors, because most Mexicans are some kind of mestizo anyway, just usually so mixed up from generations of intermixing, that picking apart our native ancestry is hard. I'm not sure how mestizo is used in other Latin-American diaspora communities though.)

That is a very different thing than having one Hispanic parent, of whatever racial makeup, native, white, or mestizo, and one non-Hispanic white parent, which is what I assume someone means when they say half-Hispanic (and that's why I refer to myself that way). I agree that there isn't really a Hispanic race, but you can be half an ethnicity just as easily as half a race.

Yeah. My father is Mexican and my mother is white (of German ancestry), so that's what I'm trying to say when I call myself "half-hispanic". I don't want to say I'm "white" because....well....I clearly don't look like the average white person. I don't want to say I'm just hispanic or mexican either because that would be a lie and I've always hated people who try to make me choose just one ethnicity. Another reason I call myself simply "mixed" or "mixed race". It might be technically incorrect but what else am I suppose to say, especially if I don't have time.

[tropaka]

wow, what I'm learning from this thread is that you call someone by whatever they self identify as. I'm in Toronto, and "Latino" generally means Spanish speaking from the Americas - although it can be expanded to include Italian and Portuguese (if I'm to believe Telatino). I have an ex who is Chilean and while there is a stong attachment to other spanish speaking Americans, the identification with the country is very strong. I guess I don't get making a distinction on not identifying as an ethnic group vs "race" - these are all identifiers that can be used - i.e. my husband is first generation Ukrainian Canadian and while his mother was born in a town that was on the disputed border between Poland/Ukraine (I think she's officially Polish by birth although the Soviets hauled her off to a camp during WWII and she ended up in Soviet Ukraine) - she would never identify as Polish - but as Ukrainian due to language, religion and background - if she identified further as Easterm Slav that would lump her in with Russians etc and so on....

[clibbyjo]

I'm from California, I call myself half-Hispanic, or half-Mexican interchangeably, and I've never known Hispanic to be an offensive term, but I also don't spend a lot of time in conversation with other people of Mexican descent that are politically active, so it's possible that it is considered offensive to activists, but the rest of us Hispanics are fine with it. (I'm sure that people who find it offensive have reasons, and I'm not dismissive of those reasons, it's just not an issue that I am personally sensitized to, nor have I ever been told by anyone that Hispanic is outdated.) "Hispanic" sometimes appears on our forms here, as does "Mexican or Other Hispanic" and almost always we are also asked to choose a race.

I consider myself bi-ethnic, not bi-racial, because my mom is white, and my dad is brown, but some of my dad's brothers are white (same parents, who were both brown, but yay Mexican weird racial mixing genetics). I look very white (pale skin, light brown eyes) and it is usually only other half-Mexicans that pick me out as being one. Other people can tell I'm not quite Anglo, but tend to guess that I'm Middle Eastern or Jewish, partly because of how I dress. So I always check Mexican-American, and White if I have the choice, but always Mexican-American or Hispanic if a separate race option isn't given and so I have to choose between representing my ethnicity or my race. That's because I feel like it is important as a highly educated, high income woman to also be a representative of my ethnic group, because there is a perception that Latinos in general (ha see, I shift terms, and I can't even say why Latino feels more right there, and why I feel Latino, not half-Latino) are under achievers.

I tend to identify in conversation most often as Hispanic, because I feel like saying half-Mexican leads people to believe my father is from Mexico--as in, a first-generation immigrant--and even half-Mexican American still sort of sounds to me like my father might be from Mexico. My family on my father's side has been American for variable amounts of time, my grandma was born in America, but her mother wasn't, while my grandfather's family, though Spanish speaking, has been American as far as we can tell since America captured Texas from Mexico. As a result, my experience of being Mexican-American is really different than a Mexican-American whose family are more recent immigrants. So I tend to claim Hispanic because my family history is not super tied to the Mexican culture anymore, or even the Latin-American culture. I will sometimes call myself Latino, but that term to me still seems to imply being more culturally different from mainstream white America than my experience has been.

My BIL is 1/2 Mexican. His family has been in PA.for generations so he does not identify with his "Mexican" side because its so diluted down to generic "American" now.

On a weird note, a few days ago I mentioned the Oriental Market which is run by Chinese immigrants here. My 9 year old was telling my older son about the stuff we got there and he was saying it was filled with "oriental" people speaking another language. I told him "oriental" was a slur and he can say Asian instead. He said "Then why don't they call it the Asian market? Why do they call it "Oriental Market" if that's bad? Don't they want us to call it by its real name?" I cannot answer any of those questions,but I guess he is right they do not find it a slur if that is the name of the market. What do I say now? (I told him Asian is the word most people prefer and they can call their store whatever they want. I said I guess since the people who own it are Chinese and want to include most Asian cultures they picked" Oriental" because it sound exotic to cover all the different Asian stuff they carry. That is the best I can come up with for a 9 year old.

[Nesomja]

To my ear oriental is fine in reference to things e.g. 'an oriental fan' or indeed market but not in reference to people, not really sure why though...

[JesusFightClub]

Yeah, Oriental is not people, it's things. Like "An Oriental pattern" or "Oriental Studies" or "Oriental food."

If I said something like "He's Oriental" nearly everyone I know under the age of like 60 would be confused. Or it would be rude, not for insultingness as a word, but like being so vague about someone you didn't take the time to find out much about them *waving hand* "He's, from, you know, foreign parts" ;)

[emmiedahl]

I think it is always better to be precise when you can. My neighbors on one side are from Mexico, so I would choose Mexican or more accurately in this case, Oaxacan if I needed to describe their nationality. And you might need to do so in conversation even if you are not being racist, as in: My neighbors are Oaxacan and the smell of carne asada and other goodies every evening is killing me.

As far as labeling groups goes, like for census reasons or to describe the ethnic makeup of an area, I prefer to use the term that is accepted by the group as least offensive to them.

[Deleted03]

My BIL is 1/2 Mexican. His family has been in PA.for generations so he does not identify with his "Mexican" side because its so diluted down to generic "American" now.

On a weird note, a few days ago I mentioned the Oriental Market which is run by Chinese immigrants here. My 9 year old was telling my older son about the stuff we got there and he was saying it was filled with "oriental" people speaking another language. I told him "oriental" was a slur and he can say Asian instead. He said "Then why don't they call it the Asian market? Why do they call it "Oriental Market" if that's bad? Don't they want us to call it by its real name?" I cannot answer any of those questions,but I guess he is right they do not find it a slur if that is the name of the market. What do I say now? (I told him Asian is the word most people prefer and they can call their store whatever they want. I said I guess since the people who own it are Chinese and want to include most Asian cultures they picked" Oriental" because it sound exotic to cover all the different Asian stuff they carry. That is the best I can come up with for a 9 year old.

well not all people are sensitive to what is politically correct. Are the owners new immigrants? are they American? they may not get yet the nuances. And while they in particular may not be offended other people can.

And as others said, I don't find it so bad to say oriental about an object but as soon as you talk about culture or people it becomes much more touchy. Asian refers to a whole continent and thus something more tangible that "oriental" which can mean a whole bunch of stuff.

[marmalade]

I've heard this as well. When I lived in FL - where most Spanish-speakers are from Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, etc - the term Hispanic was not offensive at all. I'm told on the West Coast, Hispanic is considered offensive and Latino is the preferred term.

As a west-coaster who works and goes to school with a high percentage of Latinos, almost to a person, they find the term "Hispanic" to be a slur. IIRC, the census gives Latinos the choice of white/non-white (then select an ethnicity). Given the origins of "Latino," my half-sisters, who are half Mexican/white-Latino and half Italian, would be 100% Latino.

And that would piss off one sister who identifies as Spanish rather than Mexico, which is where their family lived before it became California after the Mexican/American War in 1848. Their family hasn't been in Spain since the 1700's, but she sure as hell takes advantage of her very common Spanish/Mexican last name (Martinez) to get jobs, etc.

[justlurking]

As a west-coaster who works and goes to school with a high percentage of Latinos, almost to a person, they find the term "Hispanic" to be a slur. IIRC, the census gives Latinos the choice of white/non-white (then select an ethnicity). Given the origins of "Latino," my half-sisters, who are half Mexican/white-Latino and half Italian, would be 100% Latino.

And that would piss off one sister who identifies as Spanish rather than Mexico, which is where their family lived before it became California after the Mexican/American War in 1848. Their family hasn't been in Spain since the 1700's, but she sure as hell takes advantage of her very common Spanish/Mexican last name (Martinez) to get jobs, etc.

Well, I guess it's dependent upon where you live in the country and the type of Hispanics/Latinos which are predominate there. I'm from New Jersey, so we have a higher percentage of Puerto Ricans and Dominicans. I assume the percentage may not be as high in the West Coast where people of Latin American descent are probably in the majority. If the definition I was told is one that is commonly agreed upon by the Spanish-speaking community, I could understand someone of non-Hispanic descent taking offense to being called Hispanic...as if everyone who speaks Spanish comes from only one place. Likewise, I know people of Hispanic descent who get equally insulted when someone mistakenly refers to their food, culture, language, or traditions as being "Mexican"...as if that is the only spanish-speaking culture.

[julie paradox]

so - what's the difference between ethnicity and race?

Would a typical Irish person be a different ethnicity from a typical Bavarian?

(still find it weird that "Spanish" people aren't white...)

[JesusFightClub]

I am confused by this too, Julie. Some people say Scots is a race, which seems bizarre to me. I am a pasty white Scot with Irish roots on one side and London Jewish (waaaaay back with the Jewish bit) on the other. Scots of other racial backgrounds look nothing like me, but we are all Scottish.

My mate at uni would contemptuously speak of "white people" and she was Italian (dark hair and eyes, olive skin). My mum has dark hair and eyes and olive skin, and when she goes to Greece or Italy she gets mistaken for being local, but if you called her anything but white she would be utterly bewildered.

Small and Smaller Relative are mixed race, although the mix is a bit complicated. I do not know how they will see themselves in the future.

All I can make of this is I don't get it. I put myself down on the census as white Scottish, and will respect anyone's choices to describe themselves as they see fit...we're a' Jock Tamson's bairns :)

[justlurking]

so - what's the difference between ethnicity and race?

Would a typical Irish person be a different ethnicity from a typical Bavarian?

(still find it weird that "Spanish" people aren't white...)

Ethnicity relates more to cultural traditions based upon your area of origin--so yes, Irish would be considered a different ethnicity than Bavarian. Race is a complex and subjective term, but the current definition tends to break all humans down into 3 main classifications based upon skin color and other physical features: Caucasoid (or "White"), Negroid (or "Black"), Mongoloid (or "Asian"). I've read that some people include a 4th category: Australoid, to describe people of aboriginal descent.

I don't know where you're from, but in my area if you are from Spain you would definitely be considered "white" as most people of European descent are considered white.

[kamcho_papio]

Ethnicity relates more to cultural traditions based upon your area of origin--so yes, Irish would be considered a different ethnicity than Bavarian. Race is a complex and subjective term, but the current definition tends to break all humans down into 3 main classifications based upon skin color and other physical features: Caucasoid (or "White"), Negroid (or "Black"), Mongoloid (or "Asian"). I've read that some people include a 4th category: Australoid, to describe people of aboriginal descent.

I don't know where you're from, but in my area if you are from Spain you would definitely be considered "white" as most people of European descent are considered white.

In physical anthropology, the general practice is to understand that there three extremely broad and somewhat loosely organized categories for race, but those are based on things like skull shape; there is no biological definition for any race, and like others have said, it is extremely subjective. In the 19th century in the US, Italians and Irish were often considered nonwhite because they were extremely poor, and Catholic, and often poorly educated. However, sometimes the broad categories are useful for identifying crime victims or archaeological burials. FWIW, 'Australoid' is often listed as a subcategory of Caucasoid.

Ethnicity is also somewhat subjective: looks how diverse many countries in South America are, like Emmiedahl said. Even England has regional cultural divides that, while not obviously 'ethnic', often fall along those lines. Italy and Spain are good examples, too. Sicilians and Milanese are technically all Italian, but they have enormous ethnic differences between them.

Another confusion is that in some languages, the words for race and ethnicity are the same: I believe one example is Spanish, where Columbus Day is called El Dia de La Raza, the day of the race, which embodies cultural heritage. As far as the "I call myself Spanish" idea, I know some people use it, but other people of Spanish-speaking origins have said that a person who says that being uppity or putting on airs.

[justlurking]

My mate at uni would contemptuously speak of "white people" and she was Italian (dark hair and eyes, olive skin). My mum has dark hair and eyes and olive skin, and when she goes to Greece or Italy she gets mistaken for being local, but if you called her anything but white she would be utterly bewildered.

I think this is where ethnocentrism and racism commonly makes things confusing. I had always heard that there were/are people who don't consider Jewish, Italian, (and back in the day) Irish people to be white. Or, if they were "granted" that status they were seen as "lower-level" whites. I remember having to read a book back in undergrad called "How the Irish Became White" which detailed the ethnocentrism that was directed at a lot of Irish immigrants in the 19th century and how they were able to effectively change their social status in a way that other [racial] minorities couldn't to be afforded "white" status or recognition by the ruling group.

This past New Years, actually, I met for the very first time someone who did not consider Jewish and Italian whites to be his "same kind" of white. This guy was visiting from Colorado and talking about how different the East Coast is in terms of racial makeup. He made specific reference to Brooklyn, and when I pointed out that there are many people of Jewish and Italian descent [as well as Irish] who live in Brooklyn he indicated that it wasn't the same. When I mentioned Irish people he kind of conceded a little on that one---because he has some Irish ancestry.

[clibbyjo]

My husband is Scottish and Irish and he is burns within 5 minutes of being in the sun and is covered in freckles. I cannot see anyone mistaking him for anything other than white. I am part Native American and I am darker than average in summer so being part Native American,what would that make me in his eyes I wonder? People always assume I am Italian because of my name and because I am more olive/tan. I actually once had an Italian boyfriend say he originally liked me because he thought I was Italian like him.(WTF?)

On another note ,my sister lives in New Mexico and her ex-husband was "Spanish". She said his family and many of the others in the Taos area consider themselves descendants of the conquistadors and therefore they are Spanish ,not Mexican. Calling them Mexican or even hinting at it was an insult.(?) She said her ex was bullied as a child by the Mexicans since he was Spanish. I am not from the southeast,so I don't know the culture of the history of why this feud would still be going on when both have been there for generations.