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Ok FJ'ers weigh in! Catholics vs Christians


FJismyheadship

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I go to an Assembly Of God church. For the most part, they are good people and thus far I havent found anything they have preached that doesnt line up with the Bible.

However, some of the people that go there are part of the "Catholics arent real Christians" group (including one woman who grew up Catholic)

Anyways, I'm reading online a Catholic Bible. I was curious to see the differences in it, and why they think that, so I'm reading the New Testament. Now, except for the phrasing, I havent found anything terribly different from any other bible. The phrasing of sentances is different enough that someone might notice, but that is all.

Okay, so how bad would it be of me to go ahead and buy a Catholic Bible (or go to the church by my house and ask them if they have a copy I can have) and in Sunday School or Wednesday night services when they ask someone to read a passage, I start reading out of my Catholic Bible?

And another thing: Can someone who is/was Catholic or knows the whole thing tell me whats supposed to be so different? Are there extra books in there? Why are Catholics supposedly not "real Christians"???

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The differences are in the old testament, if I recall correctly.

Here's a wikianswers article about it.

wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_the_Catholic_Bible_and_the_King_James_Version

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I'm not Catholic, but my understanding is that those "extra books" were there all along, right up until the King James 1611 decided to remove certains books (e.g. macabbees, tobit, judith, etc) and certain chapters from some books (e.g. the story of Susanna in the book of daniel).

I am sure there are many FJers that know more detail about that and whether my understanding is correct.

Also, just a polite word of caution, but you might want to take care to remember that not everyone on FJ is Christian, nor will believe that any version of any Bible is "true".

Evangelicals might claim that Catholics are not 'real' Christians because they might say that they worship Mary/the Pope/saints, or they might point to infant baptism, or any number of other problems they have. Just like Evangelicals (and others) might say that Episcopalians are not 'real' Christians because they are too liberal.

To each their own, in my opinion. If you like a church or place of worship, you get good out of it and feel good about going, then it's 100% your choice if you want to continue going. No FJer can make that decision for you really. :)

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What version do you use in A of G? If it's King James and King James only, your opting to read aloud out of a different version might not be well-received. What you see as just different phraseology is like waving a red flag in front of a bull, where the bull is a rabid King-James-only Christian. For reasons that have never been clear to me, people who insist on King James seem to think it went straight from God's lips to the page, with no intervening human action. Rephrasing for clarity is the work of the devil.

As for why Catholics are supposedly not Christian, you'd have to ask the people who are taking that position. I myself don't understand it. A person who confesses Jesus Christ as the son of God, who died for our sins and won eternal life for us, is a Christian as far as I'm concerned. All else is commentary. I am no one's Catholic apologist; but I don't know how they can be called nonChristian.

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If you're looking for a Catholic Bible, the new Little Rock Catholic Study Bible is AWESOME. My grandparents got it for me for Christmas, and not only is it a good translation, but the notes they have in there on everything from translations to culture to how a passage has been interpreted/used throughout the ages are just plain interesting! I love it from a Catholic standpoint and from an academic standpoint.

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I liked theology a lot in school, let's see what I can remember (with a little help from wikipedia for dates and such.) The "extra" books are often referred to as "deuterocanonical" or "apocrypha." They were included in the Septuagint (translation of Hebrew scriptures into Greek from approx 200 BCE). Later, when the Hebrew scriptures were formally settled upon, a few hundred years later, certain books were not included. However, early Christians had been using the Septuagint, because it was in a language they could read. Eventually, when the Bible canon was settled upon, many (not sure if it was all of them) of the books that were dropped from the Jewish canon, but were in the Septuagint, were included in the Christian canon. However, after the Protestant Reformation, many Protestant started using Jewish canon. If I remember correctly (and I may not), I was told that Martin Luther wanted to use the "bible" that Jesus used, and mistaken thought that the "extra" books were added after Jesus's death, and thus dropped those books. That's my understanding of all of that at least.

As to the Catholics not being Christians thing, I heard a lot of that growing up Catholic in a heavily Baptist area. A lot of it has to do with faith alone/works based salvation. Protestant don't like the importance Catholics place on the sacraments. Also, the "Mary" issue also comes up. It wasn't uncommon for people at my school to tell me that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints and thus are going to hell. I even had a girl tell me that her pastor told her that Catholics don't believe in Jesus, and that's why I wasn't Christian. Crazy stuff.

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I remember something about Luther saying the apocrypha were great stories but not to be included in the Bible. I have a Jerusalem Bible with apocrypha and I find the books interesting and enlightening. Our church uses the NRSV version of the Bible, but anyone can use what ever version they like for Bible Study.

This is from Wiki

Martin Luther translated the Bible into German during the early part of the 16th century, first releasing a complete Bible in 1534. His Bible was the first major edition to have a separate section called Apocrypha. Books and portions of books not found in the Masoretic Text of Judaism were moved out of the body of the Old Testament to this section.[12] Luther placed these books between the Old and New Testaments. For this reason, these works are sometimes known as inter-testamental books, see also Intertestamental period and Luther's canon. The books 1 and 2 Esdras were omitted entirely.[13]

Luther also expressed some doubts about the canonicity of four New Testament books, although he never called them apocrypha: the Epistle to the Hebrews, the Epistles of James and Jude, and the Revelation to John. He did not put them in a separate named section, but he did move them to the end of his New Testament.[14]

[edit]

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Guest Anonymous

Okay, so how bad would it be of me to go ahead and buy a Catholic Bible (or go to the church by my house and ask them if they have a copy I can have) and in Sunday School or Wednesday night services when they ask someone to read a passage, I start reading out of my Catholic Bible?

Honestly? Aside from the fact that you'd not likely be asked to read anything from the Apocrypha in an AoG church, going in there waving a Catholic bible would be a bit daft and immature, IMO, and would likely just get peoples backs up. Lots of Christian groups hold different beliefs to other Christian groups and it is common among many evangelical denominations not to consider Catholics to be true born again Christians (see the FJ Born again? thread).

If you have questions, why not ask someone after a meeting one day, or explore your queries in an online forum? Or ask away on FJ - but yeah, as someone said earlier, bear in mind that many of us here are not Christians and our views will vary accordingly.

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I will give this a try. I was raised strict Roman Catholic.

Differences:

-We believe in Transubstantiation, basically that the Eucharist is literally the body and blood of Christ.

-Saints, as in we pray to them for help

-Baptism normally takes place when one is a baby. It is an act of the parents and community of the church. It is largely a symbol of the beginning of the journey. Most importantly it is a tangible representation of the forgiveness of original sin.

-Sacraments in general are symbol/physical representations of a particular part of a journey. (in essence you are already an adult when you receive confirmation, the sacrament is symbol of the church recognizing you as an adult)

-Catholics generally are open to studying the ancient texts, as scholars and will change the interpretation of the bible (not often)

-We do not believe in the death penalty

-We pray to Mary Mother of God

-The whole hierarchy, of the catholic church

-We have accepted evolution, ( I personally believe God is infinite, and I am finite , therefore I will never be able to comprehend his wisdom, and accept evolution)

-Mass used to be latin pre-vatican II. Like 1960.

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I go to an Assembly Of God church. For the most part, they are good people and thus far I havent found anything they have preached that doesnt line up with the Bible.

However, some of the people that go there are part of the "Catholics arent real Christians" group (including one woman who grew up Catholic)

Anyways, I'm reading online a Catholic Bible. I was curious to see the differences in it, and why they think that, so I'm reading the New Testament. Now, except for the phrasing, I havent found anything terribly different from any other bible. The phrasing of sentances is different enough that someone might notice, but that is all.

Okay, so how bad would it be of me to go ahead and buy a Catholic Bible (or go to the church by my house and ask them if they have a copy I can have) and in Sunday School or Wednesday night services when they ask someone to read a passage, I start reading out of my Catholic Bible?

And another thing: Can someone who is/was Catholic or knows the whole thing tell me whats supposed to be so different? Are there extra books in there? Why are Catholics supposedly not "real Christians"???

The biggest difference is that Catholics don't believe in faith alone and Protestants do. Smaller difference is that being born again of water and the spirit means baptism to Catholics, and means Born Again to some Protestants. There are other differences in verse interpretation too. The verses in a Catholic bible are somewhat different than a KJ bible, but not drastically different. The difference is more the interpretation of verses rather than a bible itself. Also there are some extra books in a Catholic bible, but nothing earth shattering or anything having to do with salvation differences. Here's my personal opinion. I have studied the bible for many years. I do not like the King James bible. I feel that it has too many errors in it. My beliefs match up more with Catholic doctrine than the doctrine of any other faith, however I do not agree with all of Catholic doctrine. I also don't believe in faith alone. There is too much in the bible that disputes the theory of faith alone.

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There are more history books in the OT in the Catholic Bible. They are really interesting.

As far as the "Catholics aren't Christians" there are a lot of theological differences between Catholics and Protestants and many fundamentalist protestants are very "sola scriptura" or "only the Bible" whereas Catholics go on the Bible and tradition. This is the rub.

I am Protestant and my best friend is Catholic and we have wonderful theological discussions due to our differences. We always seem to end up with the same spirit of the message though so I have a hard time believing that she's isn't a Christian or that I'm not just because we see things differently sometimes. We almost always arrive at the same answer!

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Honestly? Aside from the fact that you'd not likely be asked to read anything from the Apocrypha in an AoG church, going in there waving a Catholic bible would be a bit daft and immature, IMO, and would likely just get peoples backs up. .

I agree. It's also rude and insulting.

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oooo wow? So I had no clue about Apocryha.

Question for you: do non-Catholics believe Mary was a virgin?

Also, do you belive that Episcopalian's are not Christian?

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oooo wow? So I had no clue about Apocryha.

Question for you: do non-Catholics believe Mary was a virgin?

Also, do you belive that Episcopalian's are not Christian?

Lutherans and Methodists believe in the virgin birth. I myself liken it to a frozen embryo transfer, just my personal interpretation.

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I agree. It's also rude and insulting.

Well that depends on the intentions of the OP. I'm not sure why anyone would buy a bible that contains the Apocrypha unless they were a Catholic...perhaps the OP would care to discuss the motivations behind this?

I've known plenty of people who brought the bible of their choice--Catholic, KJV, or NIV to church/bible study and I've never seen anyone get up in arms about it.

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Lutherans and Methodists believe in the virgin birth. I myself liken it to a frozen embryo transfer, just my personal interpretation.

Mary does sound like the Triple Goddess merged into one person; the virgin, mother, and crone. I guess that's why I admire a lot because she is the female aspect of Christianity, well according to Catholics and Orthodox Christians, Protestants just see her as a normal woman not worth talking about much. No offense to any Protestants here.

Even in Crete, there was an ancient Virgin/Mother Goddess.

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There are more history books in the OT in the Catholic Bible. They are really interesting.

As far as the "Catholics aren't Christians" there are a lot of theological differences between Catholics and Protestants and many fundamentalist protestants are very "sola scriptura" or "only the Bible" whereas Catholics go on the Bible and tradition. This is the rub.

I am Protestant and my best friend is Catholic and we have wonderful theological discussions due to our differences. We always seem to end up with the same spirit of the message though so I have a hard time believing that she's isn't a Christian or that I'm not just because we see things differently sometimes. We almost always arrive at the same answer!

My best friend is also Catholic, while I am Protestant and I agree :)

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Catholic Bibles have different names for some of the books like the Song of Solomon is the Song of Songs. This was particularly pronounced in the older versions (the Douay) where you'd have Canticle of Canticles, I, II, III, IV Kings (1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings) Osee (Hosea) 1 and 2 Esdras (Ezra and Nehemiah) and so on.

Here's a link of the books in the Latin Vulgate with their names in the Vulgate, the Douay-Rheims version and the KJV:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Latin_Vulgate

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Lutherans and Methodists believe in the virgin birth. I myself liken it to a frozen embryo transfer, just my personal interpretation.

But they believe that Mary went on to have other children and they reject the "immaculate conception" concept that Mary was sinless and that her own conception was different than others. She was just a nice girl who had not been with any man when she conceived Jesus, but there was nothing that was notably different about her except for exactly what the angel said to her.

In the New Testament canon, she is not venerated in any way, and Jesus says at one point, "Who is my mother or who are my brothers but those who do my commandments." She was an honored person, but the NT does not teach that she was otherwise different than any other person and did not have special ability to communicate with anyone via prayer after she died.

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I went to an AoG church growing up, and it was always weird when I finally went away to college. :) :roll:

I did not hear anything bad about Catholics from the pulpit, save that plenty of people looked to Jesus as a savior but the people who had not made Him Lord over their lives with some sense of being born of the Spirit as Jesus describes in John 3, you were not going to get into heaven. Jesus would say to the surprise of many, "I never knew you." I never heard any specific anti-Catholic stuff from the pulpit. I always thought it interesting and hopeful that Jimmy Swaggart (before the scandal when we watched faithfully before leaving for Sunday School) would faithfully say some comment in every sermon to Catholics, speaking directly to them, but only with the "Jesus must be your Lord, and you must be born again/born of the spirit." I don't remember those comments as condemning, but he did drive home the idea of making that decision to be made anew in the Spirit.

We had a ton of Chick Publications material laying around, and we had a few members on and off, who went on anti-Catholic campaigns.

What was weird: I went to a Catholic college which flipped everyone out. And I had many not so bright bulbs ask me when I came back for services repeatedly ask "When do you go on the mission field?" and "How can you be studying missionary nursing from Catholics?" I'd try to explain that nursing was nursing, and getting through school did not prepare you to be an independent practitioner -- and I wouldn't even qualify to get into advanced training programs for a couple of years because I needed experience as a nurse. I'm sure that all of that "You have to become a nurse first" went right over their heads. But there was a whole small contingent there at that church that was sure that I'd been swallowed by the Great Whore of Babylon and was :roll: studying to be an RCC missionary. :roll:

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Interestingly, at least one of the orders of service my Anglican church was using in the 80s included the line "Reading: from the Old Testament or Apocrypha"

But then, we also believe in one holy catholick and apostolic church ;-)

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Everone has covered the rest of the discussion, so let me ask, OP...

what would you hope to accomplish by reading from the Catholic bible?

Thoughts on what your answer to that question could be...

-Are you hoping to change someone's mind? (whose mind and in what way? It's to subtle and passive-aggressive to do that)

-To find out why they think Catholics aren't real Christians? (There's a diversity of answers there--You'd be better off asking the people who expose these beliefs--they aren't a hive vagina either)

-To find out if the church 'officially' agrees with the above 'not christian' attitude? (Again, I'd ask. Even someone in leadership may have a personal opinion on theology that doesn't 100% line up with the church's philosophy)

-To point out that there is diversity in the membership? (I've never found that that works--people already know--they just either don't care [either tolerant or they just don't care about said issue] or they know and want to force conformity--I personally also think that reading from a Catholic Bible as a way of pointing out diversity of beliefs is a bit disingenuous when you're not well versed in Catholic beliefs)

It just seems passive-aggressive and pointless.

You don't have to theologically agree with every aspect of your church (and you probably never will). You certainly don't have to agree with every member of a congregation (and a church that expected taht sort of hive-vagina mentality would be wise to fear). You're free to call people on their crap, but I think you need to look at your motivation.

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I go to an Assembly Of God church. For the most part, they are good people and thus far I havent found anything they have preached that doesnt line up with the Bible.

However, some of the people that go there are part of the "Catholics arent real Christians" group (including one woman who grew up Catholic)

Anyways, I'm reading online a Catholic Bible. I was curious to see the differences in it, and why they think that, so I'm reading the New Testament. Now, except for the phrasing, I havent found anything terribly different from any other bible. The phrasing of sentances is different enough that someone might notice, but that is all.

Okay, so how bad would it be of me to go ahead and buy a Catholic Bible (or go to the church by my house and ask them if they have a copy I can have) and in Sunday School or Wednesday night services when they ask someone to read a passage, I start reading out of my Catholic Bible?

And another thing: Can someone who is/was Catholic or knows the whole thing tell me whats supposed to be so different? Are there extra books in there? Why are Catholics supposedly not "real Christians"???

First of all, I've never personally heard anything referred to as the 'Catholic bible', in my Catholic school or any of the churches I have been to... there is a standard translation used by churches in the UK, but some churches choose to use a different one, my school got us all to buy another different translation again... apart from the Apocrypha I don't know of anything specifically 'Catholic' about any of those.

That aside, I always thought that Catholics weren't thought of as real Christians because of differences in practices and beliefs, such as transubstantiation and the whole praying to Mary and the Saints thing which some Protestants see as worshipping gods other than, well, God/not biblical.

Are you trying to demonstrate to your other church members that the Catholic Bible is not so different from their own? If so I don't see what is so terribly offensive about that (though there are probably better ways to approach it)... but then I grew up hearing many translations and not believing that any particular one was superior, so I don't really understand when people cling to one particular translation and reject all others.

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