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Skylar's rather dark view of Orthodox conversion


Dinorah

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Through (of all things!) Lina's blog I'd discovered the (genuine) Orthodox Jewish convert blogs Just Call Me Chaviva and Crazy Jewish Convert. I read them regularly now, since I've been fascinated by Judaism all my life and in some ways I feel it's the religion that would fit me the most (though certainly not Orthodox Judaism). Anyway it strikes me increasingly that Sklyar/Kochava from CJC paints a rather negative picture of Orthodox conversion, stressing a lot of the sacrifice it entails and almost none of the positive aspects. You have to accept double standards. You have to cut ties with your close family. You'll have to go nuts buying food and a new wardrobe. You're going to enter a culture that emphasizes marrying and having kids early, but won't be able to even date until you're fully converted. Recently she posted about the expenses of Orthodox conversion, listing some stuff that seemed sort of strained (I don't see how it's really so necessary, for instance, to spend a college tuition's worth for a wedding. Don't tell me it's against halacha or whatever to have a simple, frugal wedding). I understand that because she sees her blog as a kind of "how to" guide, she wants to warn people what they're getting into, but reading her makes you wander why she, or anyone else, would go through all this hassle. Chaviva's blog doesn't give this feeling at all.

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Guest Anonymous

I noticed that with Skylar's blog - it comes across as though she is super-proud of what she has gone through and wants to tell everyone how hard she has worked, and how much she has achieved... in a similar way that some recent grads will like to talk about the horrors of completing a PhD or similar. Don't undertake this lightly, folks! It's only for the super-committed, like ME!!!!

The reality is probably more that different people will experience things differently....

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I noticed that with Skylar's blog - it comes across as though she is super-proud of what she has gone through and wants to tell everyone how hard she has worked, and how much she has achieved... in a similar way that some recent grads will like to talk about the horrors of completing a PhD or similar. Don't undertake this lightly, folks! It's only for the super-committed, like ME!!!!

The reality is probably more that different people will experience things differently....

she does come across as elitist. Doing a PhD is a hard thing, but to be honest sometimes I just feel like I have no choice going through shit because I already committed too much time and money and in the end there's a job opportunity and quite frankly it's hard to double job searching and classes. but yeah, some people will tell that to you in an elitist way ;)

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Guest Anonymous

I didn't mean to imply that doing a PhD isn't hard (or that Jewish conversion, or opera singing, or rocket science are not hard)... but some people do seem to like to go on about it more than others. :D

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I think her blog is fair.

It's not designed to "sell" conversion to Orthodox Judaism. It's her observations and experiences, warts and all. She's giving a realistic view, even if it does come across as dark at times. IMHO, real problems arise when someone either converts, or (more commonly) quickly moves to a more Orthodox lifestyle without really knowing what this entails. Personally, I think that the Jewish world should "market" the idea that you don't have to do a full conversion if you like Jewish ideas - there are basic rules for all of humankind to follow, and someone's purpose in life may be best fulfilled by staying in their own community and encouraging this universal morality.

There are new limitations on food, and some items can be significantly more expensive. I could add that there are ways to adjust - for example, as a newly kosher newlywed married to a starving student, we cooked vegetarian meals since non-meat/non-dairy kosher items are easy to find in regular and discount grocery stores. Nevertheless, once you are established, meat is generally expected on Shabbat and holidays unless you are absolutely unable to afford it or have some serious reason to avoid eating it. There are cultural issues around food as well, esp. for someone from a non-ethnic background. Simply put: we eat a LOT! There's a completely different idea of portion size. If you are Italian, Jewish food quantity (or wedding size) wouldn't seem unusual, but from her perspective, it might.

Shabbat requires adjustment. We weren't able to really keep it until we were self-employed, because it starts as early as 4:30 during the winter, and I need to leave my office by 1:30 p.m. in order to pick up my kids from their school at 2:00 p.m. Now, it's also possible to adjust for this by shifting your schedule, putting in time on Sunday, starting early, etc. - but it's still an adjustment. Not driving also means living near a synagogue - and that frequently means higher real estate prices, since you can't just move farther out.

Jewish day school is the norm in the Orthodox community (homeschoolers exist, but it's rare, and public school is often seen as a last resort or reserved for kids who have special needs and can't cope with the Jewish day school). Most schools have some sort of subsidy available for those who need it, but ultimately SOMEONE needs to be paying tuition in order for the school to survive. Around 40% of the students at my kids' school get some sort of subsidy, but subsidy doesn't mean free, and it's still a really big expense.

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I've read her blog and every time I do, I just wonder why anyone would convert to Orthodox!! I mean, I'm sure that there are many wonderful things abou tit, but it really seems like she focusses on the you can't do this, you shouldn't do this, you have to spend all this money getting 80 million of the same thing so that everything is kosher. I'm sure that there are many wonderful things about an Orthodox conversion, but I sure can't find any on her blog.

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I've read her blog and every time I do, I just wonder why anyone would convert to Orthodox!! I mean, I'm sure that there are many wonderful things abou tit, but it really seems like she focusses on the you can't do this, you shouldn't do this, you have to spend all this money getting 80 million of the same thing so that everything is kosher. I'm sure that there are many wonderful things about an Orthodox conversion, but I sure can't find any on her blog.

You are a Muslim convert, are you not? I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that would say the same about converting to Islam. You can drink alcohol, you have to pray 5 times a day, you have to wear a head scarf, etc...

Joining any religion comes with many joys and many sacrifices with the hope that it pays off in the afterlife.

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I think her blog is fair.

It's not designed to "sell" conversion to Orthodox Judaism. It's her observations and experiences, warts and all. She's giving a realistic view, even if it does come across as dark at times. IMHO, real problems arise when someone either converts, or (more commonly) quickly moves to a more Orthodox lifestyle without really knowing what this entails. Personally, I think that the Jewish world should "market" the idea that you don't have to do a full conversion if you like Jewish ideas - there are basic rules for all of humankind to follow, and someone's purpose in life may be best fulfilled by staying in their own community and encouraging this universal morality.

There are new limitations on food, and some items can be significantly more expensive. I could add that there are ways to adjust - for example, as a newly kosher newlywed married to a starving student, we cooked vegetarian meals since non-meat/non-dairy kosher items are easy to find in regular and discount grocery stores. Nevertheless, once you are established, meat is generally expected on Shabbat and holidays unless you are absolutely unable to afford it or have some serious reason to avoid eating it. There are cultural issues around food as well, esp. for someone from a non-ethnic background. Simply put: we eat a LOT! There's a completely different idea of portion size. If you are Italian, Jewish food quantity (or wedding size) wouldn't seem unusual, but from her perspective, it might.

Shabbat requires adjustment. We weren't able to really keep it until we were self-employed, because it starts as early as 4:30 during the winter, and I need to leave my office by 1:30 p.m. in order to pick up my kids from their school at 2:00 p.m. Now, it's also possible to adjust for this by shifting your schedule, putting in time on Sunday, starting early, etc. - but it's still an adjustment. Not driving also means living near a synagogue - and that frequently means higher real estate prices, since you can't just move farther out.

Jewish day school is the norm in the Orthodox community (homeschoolers exist, but it's rare, and public school is often seen as a last resort or reserved for kids who have special needs and can't cope with the Jewish day school). Most schools have some sort of subsidy available for those who need it, but ultimately SOMEONE needs to be paying tuition in order for the school to survive. Around 40% of the students at my kids' school get some sort of subsidy, but subsidy doesn't mean free, and it's still a really big expense.

I understand she isn't trying to "sell" the lifestyle and that's honourable and that being an Orthodox Jew is demanding, but it's not clear at all what she's getting out of it. Sometimes she sounds more like a born-Orthodox frustrated with the process than someone who's entered it deliberately. I can't help but seeing the contrast with Chaviva's blog. Chaviva isn't trying to "sell" the lifestyle either, and I get the sense the process is difficult and demanding there as well, but she also talks for instance about community and culture and gives the sense of being perhaps happier and more adjusted as a convert.

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Sometimes she sounds more like a born-Orthodox frustrated with the process than someone who's entered it deliberately.

Nothing restricted to religious conversion, but I think the idea of "I belong so much now that I can complain about it" might apply. If you really want to join a group of people, being "in" enough to sit around griping about the day to day can be an attraction. You're not a newb anymore, it's all old hat, etc.

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She had a Reasons for Converting post early on in her blog, which basically concluded with "I couldn't see myself being anything but Jewish". Ultimately, though, I don't think that her purpose in this particular blog is to discuss the deeper reasons for, and joy from, choosing Judaism. It seems to really be about practical issues and some of the frustrations on the way.

I suppose you could compare it to some of the pregnancy and parenting blogs out there. Sure, people are motivated by a love of children and a deep desire to have them, but that's often not the focus and it's hard to describe joy on a daily basis. Instead, you get posts about difficulties getting pregnant, the incredible physical strain and expense of IVF, the difficulties of arranging an adoption, morning sickness and joint pain and other physical issues with pregnancy, birth stories from hell, bitching about babies who never sleep and tips for dealing with colic, tales of toddler mayhem, etc.

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She had a Reasons for Converting post early on in her blog, which basically concluded with "I couldn't see myself being anything but Jewish". Ultimately, though, I don't think that her purpose in this particular blog is to discuss the deeper reasons for, and joy from, choosing Judaism. It seems to really be about practical issues and some of the frustrations on the way.

I suppose you could compare it to some of the pregnancy and parenting blogs out there. Sure, people are motivated by a love of children and a deep desire to have them, but that's often not the focus and it's hard to describe joy on a daily basis. Instead, you get posts about difficulties getting pregnant, the incredible physical strain and expense of IVF, the difficulties of arranging an adoption, morning sickness and joint pain and other physical issues with pregnancy, birth stories from hell, bitching about babies who never sleep and tips for dealing with colic, tales of toddler mayhem, etc.

See and that's why I have 2 blogs. Public is the one that's all kittens and fairy farts and rainbow shitting unicorns about my garden and kid and sewing projects. All my pictures are carefully posted to not show how messy my living room actually is on a daily basis. The private one is where I do all of my epic bitching and will post pictures of "before and after" cleaning days just to feel like I've done something. Very few real life friends have the URL and access to it (its friends only).

I too can't see my self as anything but Jewish, but I sure as HECK could never EVER in a million years be Orthodox. After reading her blog and meeting some Orthodox folks, I just... can't. (not to mention my Reform husband would leave me, and i'd lose my kids... do i need to go on ! LOL ).

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When reading Kochava's blog, I do wish she would try to balance her lists of inconveniences with their meaning for her, why she is doing this. It's her blog, her choice, but I think sometimes she represents us as miserable people worrying constantly about rules and technicalities.

Most practicing Jews I know, especially Orthodox, are very joyful and happy to obey commandments. It is something they choose to do. No one is twisting their arm behind their back, they won't get some huge tangible reward in the end (like a PhD). They are for the most part loving their lives. Both converts and born Jews. The mitzvot bring balance and harmony, give us a framework for being better people and loving God. I don't feel the love from Kochava, but maybe she is simply overwhelmed with all the changes right now.

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Nothing restricted to religious conversion, but I think the idea of "I belong so much now that I can complain about it" might apply. If you really want to join a group of people, being "in" enough to sit around griping about the day to day can

be an attraction. You're not a newb anymore, it's all old hat, etc.

Yeah, this, maybe she does not want to sound all wide eyed and innocent and This Is All Great?

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Ahuva Grey's book "My Sister, the Jew" would probably be the flip side of Kochava's blog.

What just struck me was the contrast between Kochava's blog, which is deliberately NOT selling Judaism and which wants to make sure potential converts go in with eyes wide open, and the Jewish outreach stuff for born-Jews. The outreach efforts are all about sunshine and rainbows....but those who decide to dive in and make a complete commitment to Orthodoxy often go through a process which is quite similar to a conversion, but without all of the checks and balances and sober second thoughts. Both IRL and on the internet, I've seen people from this group really struggle when the novelty wears off. [i'm quasi-BT, my family background is Conservative and I'm now modern Orthodox, but hubby and I deliberately resisted pressure to do things faster or in a more extreme way.] There can be a huge difference between the funky and friendly outreach rabbi, the free trips to Israel, the free food in various forms, the lack of judgment and the wonderful ideals that draw people in, and the reality of an insular community, judgmental people, being around people with far narrower life experiences and yes, dealing with a real financial wake-up call. It can cause a real crisis of faith (look at OnionSoupMix or Mattisyahu), and I've even seen family issues where one spouse loses interest but the other one is still committed.

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When reading Kochava's blog, I do wish she would try to balance her lists of inconveniences with their meaning for her, why she is doing this. It's her blog, her choice, but I think sometimes she represents us as miserable people worrying constantly about rules and technicalities.

Most practicing Jews I know, especially Orthodox, are very joyful and happy to obey commandments. It is something they choose to do. No one is twisting their arm behind their back, they won't get some huge tangible reward in the end (like a PhD). They are for the most part loving their lives. Both converts and born Jews. The mitzvot bring balance and harmony, give us a framework for being better people and loving God. I don't feel the love from Kochava, but maybe she is simply overwhelmed with all the changes right now

That's exactly the vibe I get. Also a PhD might be a hassle but it's supposed to improve your career, conversion is presumably something you do because you get something out of it directly. And no, I'm not saying it has to be all "sunshine and rainbows" but from the blog it comes across as endless frustration and sacrifice with not much to make up for it.

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I don't think it's an actual requirement, but once she mentioned she and her future kids would end up not seing her parents much.

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I don't think it's an actual requirement, but once she mentioned she and her future kids would end up not seing her parents much.

Huh. I wonder why. I always have concerns when I hear someone converting to or joining a religion that makes them feel they should cut off ties with family and friends.

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Huh. I wonder why. I always have concerns when I hear someone converting to or joining a religion that makes them feel they should cut off ties with family and friends.

This is a pet peeve of mine - I know newly Orthodox who sometimes do this as well.

THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE REQUIREMENT TO DO SO. I know converts who are still in close contact with their families.

Some family members don't take the change well, and may themselves limit contact. That's unfortunate, but it's life.

Some converts or newly-religious may hear about the new restrictions on some activities and immediately conclude that contact needs to be limited. If Skylar moved out of state, I can see how that would be different than living next door. Keeping kosher means you can't eat your parents' cooking. Keeping Shabbat means that you can't call or drive over on Saturday. My view, though, is that this just means that you are required to work harder to maintain the relationship by focusing on what you CAN do. You can Skype. You can bring over kosher takeout or your own food and eat on paper plates at their home. You can invite everyone over to your home.

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I can't find the entry the 'cut ties with close family' is in, but tbh if you're living any significant distance from your family, I can't see that keeping in touch is much different if you're Orthodox than if you're not.

I live in a different country from my family. I see them maybe once a year. When I want to phone, I have to calculate the time difference, and I have to have a general awareness of schedules (my dad and stepmother will be awake at 6am their time, but my mom won't be accessible till after 9am and I have to phone her at work). In the other direction, my dad knows to phone in the morning his time, and my mother usually just e-mails.

If I want to write a letter to my friend who's a Catholic nun, I mentally note that if it reaches her after Ash Wednesday, then I won't get a response until after Easter because she goes into retreat for Lent.

In Kochava's case, obviously her family won't be tuned into Jewish holidays, and given that they move around a lot as far as the secular calendar is concerned, she might have to send an e-mail every once in a while saying 'hi, won't be available from x to y' or simply ask 'if I phone you on x evening, will that work?' She might need to remind them about Shabbat given that sunset changes over the course of the year, but Shabbat happens EVERY WEEK so really, 'can't phone her on Friday night' should become second nature.

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I remember reading one of her posts where she stated that a lot of converts came from difficult family backgrounds, herself included. Maybe her decision to cut herself of from her family in the way she does, is stemmed in her relationship with them?

I know that I could never be Orthodox because it's so very much a culture you're born into and I think it's hella hard to learn it if you come from a completely non-Jewish background. Vis-a-vis the expensive weddings, I think Kochava very much wants one because that's another way to prove that she's in. Now that she's worked so hard for it, she's going to do it like the natives.

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Some converts or newly-religious may hear about the new restrictions on some activities and immediately conclude that contact needs to be limited. If Skylar moved out of state, I can see how that would be different than living next door. Keeping kosher means you can't eat your parents' cooking. Keeping Shabbat means that you can't call or drive over on Saturday. My view, though, is that this just means that you are required to work harder to maintain the relationship by focusing on what you CAN do. You can Skype. You can bring over kosher takeout or your own food and eat on paper plates at their home. You can invite everyone over to your home.

Yeah, there are some issues about food/travel that can become obstacles, and yeah, there's family members who will cut off a newly-religious kid (which, if you think about it from their point of view, I can kinda understand how it would feel like rejection of the parents' way of life).

But add to that, there are SOME BTs (and I presume converts too) who get on the "I want to go all the way, and fast!" bandwagon, in their enthusiasm get sucked into the "keeping up with the more pious neighbors" competition, and so go all whole-hog (so to speak, ha) into the "I must limit my kids' contact with secular family members, particularly their slutty cousins who watch TV" thing.

Thing is, "honor your parents" is a commandment, as well as various other nuances of keeping family harmony and thinking well of others when possible, etc, so often if they actually asked advice from a Rabbi familiar with the issues, they end up getting official permission to yes, attend family functions, use the various "letter of law obeyed, so it's FINE no matter what the neighbors might think" work-arounds, and whatever else. So yeah. They don't HAVE to cut all ties.

But some people, in the "competition," don't like the idea that they're somehow getting special treatment for being "foreigners" (honestly a lot of the issues involved really do remind me of certain expat issues) and so they take on extra on their own, that they probably really ought not, or at least not so quickly.

No doubt it's less of a problem in the MO world. I'm just a random person reading on the internet, but most of the conflict stuff I see happens with people who immediately go for the very black hat circles and so they want to extremely shelter their kids the way those communities expect, so they don't want their kids even knowing of the EXISTENCE of some secular life (like TV, or any mixing of the genders AT ALL) and so yeah, have a problem with their kids finding out stuff or hearing worldly tales from the cousins. And why very black hat very suddenly? Again, some of it really reminds me of the expat thing, the whole "I'm really in, I'm more in even than people born here" desire. They might wish they had no secular relatives or that their birth circumstances were different, but it is what it is. But the kids, they can fully shelter them... but it means cutting off those secular relatives.

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I clearly missed some dropped hints, because she completed her conversion a few weeks ago:

crazyjewishconvert.blogspot.com/2012/01/my-conversion-is-complete.html

Based on the next post (on parnassah), it sounds as though she'll be keeping her blog as a toolbox for conversion candidates for at least a bit. I wouldn't mind a chattier Chaviva-type blog, especially as she begins moving out into the Jewish world and (quite possibly) starts dating.

I think she's absolutely right not to go to seminary, at least not at this point in her life. A conversion and the bar exam and didn't she move at least once? Lots of life stress, even if it's all for good.

Anyone know what she means by this, part of a comment?: A bully tried to make sure I finished last, but it took a long time to find someone willing to hear my side of the story. If I didn't have the freedom to move cross-country and hadn't known the community well and had connections, I'd probably still be where I was: nowhere. Sounds like it might have to do with the reason why she moved beit dins.

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