More Mark Driscoll/Mars Hill BS--Church Discipline Contracts

[Grace]

http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/mark-driscolls-church-discipline-contract-looking-for-true-repentance-at-mars-hill-church-sign-on-the-dotted-line/

Essentially, Andrew joins Mars Hill church. Meets an Elder's daughter. Gets engaged to her. Cheats on her with a friend. Admits it the very next day and all Hell breaks loose.

Ending in a "Discipline Contract" being emailed to him to sign so he can prove he is worthy of Mark Driscoll's, oops, I mean God's forgiveness.

Mars Hill Church Church Discipline Contract

Andrew XXXXXX

Background Issue (s)

Andrew has been sexually involved with another church member, keeping it secret and using deception to cover it up.He was dating/courting the woman under false pretense, while being an active member,serving, and attending community group.The repercussions of Andrew¶s sin have been widespread, as he is well-connected inthe church. Andrew brought his sin to light with a friend and then his CGL. As a result, he is under church discipline with the hope and goal of full restoration upon walking in a repentant lifestyle.

Plan of Discipline

Andrew will attend XXXs CG and meet with XXX on a regular basis (define)

Andrew will not be involved in serving at MH

Andrew will not pursue or date any woman inside or outside of MH

Andrew will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women and share it with XXX.

Andrew will write out in detail the chronology of events and sexual/emotional sin with K and share it with XXX and Pastor X.

Andrew will write out a list of all people he has sinned against during this time frame, either by sexual/emotional sin, lying or deceiving, share it with XXX and develop a plan to confess sin and ask for forgiveness.

[Guest Anonymous]

Cheating on someone is a shit thing to do. It's also none of Mark Driscoll's business. He is such a pervert - he is WAY too interested in the intimate details of other peoples' sex lives. I think this is less about church discipline and more about Mark getting his rocks off by 1.) Hearing all about sexual encounters. 2.) Feeling he has control over people's sexual actions.

[fundifugee]

This is actually not uncommon. My brother had a similar contract to fulfill when he knocked up his 17 year old girlfriend in in their Presbyterian Church in America church. Totally sucks. Ok, if you ask for help, sometimes accountability is a good thing. But the rest of it is shunning and shame and prurient interest on behalf of the pastoral staff.

[formergothardite]

I can see doing an accountability contract, but all the points about writing down details are unnecessary.

[Grace]

I'm particularly disturbed by the "Write out in detail all of your sexual sins." Really? blech

[defrauding]

I'm particularly disturbed by the "Write out in detail all of your sexual sins." Really? blech

In fairness, I suspect that Mark allows for some flexibility there. For example, he'd probably let Andrew describe the sexual acts in detail over the course of several private phone conversations while Mark's wife is away.

[Austin]

In fairness, I suspect that Mark allows for some flexibility there. For example, he'd probably let Andrew describe the sexual acts in detail over the course of several private phone conversations while Mark's wife is away.

I suspect Mark would be very fair in that regard :lol:

[holierthanyou]

I suspect Mark would be very fair in that regard :lol:

:clap: :doh: :dance:

[ThisOlGirl]

I don't really get a gay vibe from Driscoll, I just get a total perv (and not the good kind) vibe from him. The kind of vibe that if he and I both had teenage daughters, I wouldn't want my daughter spending the night at his house. He just seems like a real creeper. And a douche.

[Austin]

The acts Andrew would be describing to Mark would be the ones Andrew had with a woman. For Mark's sake, I hope she gave Andrew a BJ. Mark seems partial to those.

[holierthanyou]

I don't really get a gay vibe from Driscoll, I just get a total perv (and not the good kind) vibe from him. The kind of vibe that if he and I both had teenage daughters, I wouldn't want my daughter spending the night at his house. He just seems like a real creeper. And a douche.

I don't think that wanting to hear an explicit play by play of a (hetero) sexual relationship makes someone gay... I just think it means they get off on hearing explicit play by plays of other peoples' sex lives.

[debrand]

It amazes me that anyone wouldn't just tell Mark to shove his discipline and refuse to comply. Until I started reading this site, I had no idea that churces disciplined their members. Of course, I knew that pastors sometimes provided counseling but I didn't think that they could punish anyone.

Andrew will write out a list of all people he has sinned against during this time frame, either by sexual/emotional sin, lying or deceiving, share it with XXX and develop a plan to confess sin and ask for forgiveness

His lovers should not have their names given to a stranger. Also, not everyone finds sexual activity shameful. It would surprise and iritate me if a past lover apologized to me for having consentual sex with me.

[ThisOlGirl]

I don't think that wanting to hear an explicit play by play of a (hetero) sexual relationship makes someone gay... I just think it means they get off on hearing explicit play by plays of other peoples' sex lives.

Oh I agree that he totally gets off on it. Maybe I read the other comments wrong. I thought the commenters(here and on other Driscoll threads) meant to imply that Driscoll likes hearing about other mens' sex lives in a Dougie The Anaconda Hunter kind of way.

[Hane]

I'm with all of you here: yes, sexual cheating is a crappy thing to do, but this whole waving-it-around-before-the-church skeeves me out. I'd feel the same way if a church member were guilty of embezzlement, selling liquor to minors, or any other illegal/immoral/unethical act.

Legal bad crap, such as the "fornication," should be hammered out between the couple affected (maybe with PRIVATE church counseling, should they choose it). Illegal bad crap, such as embezzlement or endangering a minor, should go straight to the cops.

I cannot imagine why anyone, moral or sinful, would want to remain in a church that treats people this way.

[Guest Anonymous]

So, the guy in question wrote to tell the elders that he had decided to leave the church and got this response:

If this is your decision, you need to know you are leaving as a member under discipline not as a member in good standing. What this means is Matthew 18 discipline we discussed in our last meeting will be escalated, as there has not been enough time to determine if in fact you are walking in repentance. It is communicating to [name of community group leader] and me that you are unwilling to follow the leaders of your church who have determined you have been in sin and that time will be needed to determine if you are in fact walking in repentance.

[Paragraph mentioning Andrew's ex-fiancee edited out by Matthew Paul Turner]

If this is your final decision, you will also need to know this will not be our final communication as this is not an instance where you can walk away from the mess you have helped create and leave many issues unaddressed.

Please let me know if this is in fact your final decision as we will need to know how to best remain in follow up communication.

****

It reminds me of a letter I once got from a newly ex-boyfriend, telling me no-one else would ever love me like he did and that I had one last chance to get back with him.... :roll:

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh and then they wrote to the whole church to tell everyone that he had had sex with the leader's daughter. Nice work.

[Kaylee]

That's nuts, even from a church discipline point of view. The whole accountability and not being involved in church service/leadership is pretty common, as is asking him to confess and ask forgiveness from anyone he sinned against, but the level of details and control they want it nuts (ie, most churches would have him ask forgiveness for lying to others or maybe mention there was sin involved in the relationship of breakup, but would not put the details out on the church social contract or ask for details of his sex life).

They have no business telling him he can't date or asking for his sexual and emotional "history". That's the kind of crap that inevitably gets used for blackmail and manipulation and it has nothing to do with repentance or fellowship. He wouldn't have confessed and went to them for counsel if he wasn't repentant over it, and the way he's been publicly mistreated for it will just encourage other people to hide their problems and to try to cover up or deal with sin on their own, rather than being able to trust the pastor or their group leaders or church friends for advice.

[Sola]

So, the guy in question wrote to tell the elders that he had decided to leave the church and got this response:

It reminds me of a letter I once got from a newly ex-boyfriend, telling me no-one else would ever love me like he did and that I had one last chance to get back with him.... :roll:

It does, doesn't it. If you are leaving the church, then why should it bother you that they consider it to still be an issue? Surely if he has left that church then he has no intention of remaining in contact with them, I certainly wouldn't. In fact if they insisted upon it, I would be seeking legal action to prevent that.

[Guest Anonymous]

From the following post on the forum, they didn't force contact with him, but wrote next to the whole church telling them the detail of his 'sin' and giving instructions on how not to have 'fellowship' with him thereafter.

I'd be seeing a lawyer in any case. :shock:

[mirele]

I don't really get a gay vibe from Driscoll, I just get a total perv (and not the good kind) vibe from him. The kind of vibe that if he and I both had teenage daughters, I wouldn't want my daughter spending the night at his house. He just seems like a real creeper. And a douche.

Yeah. I get the voyeur vibe from Driscoll. He's the same dude who claimed that he was having visions of people being raped and abused.

http://youtu.be/aVyFyauE4ig

As for the contract, confession and then the shunning: hello, Scientology! I've said it before in the last 24 hours but I'll say it again: Mark Driscoll and his fanbois have been learning at the feet of L. Ron Hubbard, not Jesus.

[2xx1xy1JD]

From the following post on the forum, they didn't force contact with him, but wrote next to the whole church telling them the detail of his 'sin' and giving instructions on how not to have 'fellowship' with him thereafter.

I'd be seeing a lawyer in any case. :shock:

Lawyer for what?

Did the church ever promise that it would keep the information confidential? If not, and esp. if there is a history of the church publicizing wrong behavior, then it may be nasty but it's protected under freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

Various churches excommunicate members all the time. Again, it's not something to sue over, unless the church violates its own rules in this regard and clearly acts in bad faith.

In general, I don't have an issue with the concept of church discipline in general - I think there could be criticism if the church found out about clear sexual misconduct, or anything else that hurt another church member, and DIDN'T react in any way. It's the details part that seems creepy, plus the fact that I don't see much emphasis on the fact that the problem isn't really just sex, it's betrayal.

[debrand]

Did the fiance' consent to have her dirty laundry broadcast throughout the church? I would hate to be the constant subject for other's pity.

[Guest Anonymous]

Lawyer for what?

Did the church ever promise that it would keep the information confidential? If not, and esp. if there is a history of the church publicizing wrong behavior, then it may be nasty but it's protected under freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

Various churches excommunicate members all the time. Again, it's not something to sue over, unless the church violates its own rules in this regard and clearly acts in bad faith.

In general, I don't have an issue with the concept of church discipline in general - I think there could be criticism if the church found out about clear sexual misconduct, or anything else that hurt another church member, and DIDN'T react in any way. It's the details part that seems creepy, plus the fact that I don't see much emphasis on the fact that the problem isn't really just sex, it's betrayal.

I'd see a lawyer to explore possibilities around a defamation lawsuit. Hypotetically, of course, because I do not understand local law, but in the UK at least, even if the member signed a contract, the law might not recognise that contract as legally binding, and the church's behaviour may well be actionable. I am not generally litigious by nature, and wouldn't be in it for the damages, so much as to use the case to shine a light on the very dark place that is Mars Hill.

In general I have a big issue with "Church Discipline" because it generally seems to be conducted based on an individual church's interpretation of cherry-picked bible verses. What is happening at Mars Hill doesn't seem vaguely biblical. The guy made a mistake, and almost immediately 'repented'. They threatened to bad-mouth him to the whole church if he did not sign a contract agreeing to share details of all his past sex life with the skeevy pastor.... that response was beyond bizarre and needs some light shining on it somehow.

[Austin]

I've never been "put under" church discipline, but I grew up in such a church. But even if I had a complete change of heart regarding my growing disdain of evangelical Christianity, I would never, ever give anyone or any entity that much control of my life. By becoming a member in churches that practice this type of thing, you basically are giving them permission to totally ruin your life if you do something with which they disagree, and it doesn't have to be some egregious sexual sin. I've heard of these people, in the name of church discipline and trying to "restore a brother or sister", cause people to lose their jobs, lose their homes, and have their lives destroyed. These sorts of people are evil and I don't care what they want to call themselves, but they're no better than destructive stalkers.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'd see a lawyer to explore possibilities around a defamation lawsuit. Because, in the UK at least, even if the member signed a contract, the law might not recognise that contract as legally binding, and the church's behaviour may well be actionable. I am not generally litigious by nature, and wouldn't be in it for the damages, so much as to use the case to shine a light on the very dark place that is Mars Hill.

In general I have a big issue with "Church Discipline" because it generally seems to be conducted based on an individual church's interpretation of cherry-picked bible verses.

I thought Driscoll was American? UK laws on libel/defamation are far stricter than American ones. In the US, you basically need to prove that someone was actually lying, that they knew that they were lying, and that it wasn't fair comment or satire. This guy admitted that he cheated. Spreading it around to the congregation shows no respect for his privacy, but I don't think he can legally stop it. It would be like stopping an ex from complaining to all of her friends.

To give another example - let's say someone was well-known as a prominent member of church X. Then, let's say that this same person did non-sexual stuff that wasn't actually illegal, but was certainly nasty and against church teachings (being horrible to family, treating people badly in the congregation, using racist language, etc.) If a private talk isn't working, then a public "this person is engaging in horrible behavior and won't be welcome unless he changes" speech could be warranted. It's not just about the church member - it's about public warning if warranted, and also about making the church's own values and reputation clear. Remember in 2008 how Obama got criticized for associating with Rev. Jeremiah Wright, and then made a public speech criticizing him? Similar idea. I know someone who was tossed out of my synagogue - and quite frankly, it should have happened sooner, because he used and abused his reputation as a religious member of the congregation for his own benefit and to continue to harm others.

I don't care for the practice being used for small things, and in general I believe that there should be a noticeable regard for privacy, personal dignity and respect (by not embarrassing others). There could be a point, though, where not making a public statement = condoning harmful behavior.