A woman would be forced to have a child conceived by rape

[Witsec7]

I wonder how Mr. Frothy Mix would feel if his wife was raped and impregnated. So he would be totally ok with his wife carrying and delivering the child of a man who hurt his wife? Would he raise this kid? REALLY?!?!?!?!?

Frothy would not raise the kid, no more than he's raised his other kids. It would be Mrs. Frothy's job. No skin off his dick.

[hathorlive]

I will accept this law right after they castrate every rapist and cut their dick off. Or just execute them. Hang them wearing a T shirt: NO means no, which letter you don't understand? Let's bring Pakistan over here, in 2012, all right, but ALL parties should be involved, not only the women.

Or how about trying to make any man pay child support? Women are forced to bear a child against their will and the support it for 18 years because god knows very few men pay child support as it is. I think the problem with Frothy and his ilk is that their master plan is to get rid of birth control because then women would be barefoot and pregnant and they would stop competing with men for jobs. Just like good ole 1950.

The best comment on embryos as people appeared as a reply to Mississippi's personhood efforts in the Economist a few months ago: (Quiet Brilliant, I might add)

SIR – I was delighted to read your article about the effort in Mississippi to pass a state constitutional amendment to recognise embryos as people from the moment of fertilisation (“A person already?â€, October 8th). My wife and I have been considering IVF to address our lack of success in conceiving a child. Mississippi’s proposed amendment gives us even more reason to pursue this treatment, and to move to Mississippi.

After the procedure we will insist on taking custody of any extra embryos that result from IVF—it is our right as parents after all. Once safely in our home we plan to keep them in a freezer in our basement and list them as child dependents for tax purposes, thus giving us a tax deduction. To protect the lives of our children in case of a power outage we will buy a backup generator. Anything less would be bad parenting.

Tax deductions for EVERYONE! You too can claim as many kids as a Mormon, without the pesky problem of you know....having children.

[mockingbird]

Ugh. Just unfollowed someone on tumblr because she went to a pro-life rally and reading her responses to the (very rational) anonymous questions was making me too angry.

The best was that she claimed that women who have been told either their fetus will not ever be viable or that pregnancy is dangerous for the mother are being lied to. Because she has met "MANY" women (at pro-life rallies...) who have defeated the odds. Duh. Statistics are only statistics; no doctor can predict what will actually happen for your individual pregnancy, and there's always going to be that one special case. But they are still true; not everyone is going to be the miracle patient.

I think pregnancy would screw my body up big-time. My body hates hormone fluctuations (of any type) with a passion. The last time I had an issue with that I ended up in the ICU. As much as I might want a child or want to get pregnant, I just don't think pregnancy would be safe for me. If it came down to it, I'd want the option to get an abortion open.

[ElijahsMama807]

All I can really say about this is..fuck you Santorum. Seriously, fuck you. :angry-fire:

[Kaylee]

The best was that she claimed that women who have been told either their fetus will not ever be viable or that pregnancy is dangerous for the mother are being lied to. Because she has met "MANY" women (at pro-life rallies...) who have defeated the odds. Duh. Statistics are only statistics; no doctor can predict what will actually happen for your individual pregnancy, and there's always going to be that one special case. But they are still true; not everyone is going to be the miracle patient.

I wonder if she ever stopped to think that the reason she only meets the ones who defied the odds is because the ones who didn't either died or ended up losing a child and don't want to discuss that with pro-lifers who may turn around and accuse them of "killing" the baby or fetus because they didn't have enough faith or try hard enough.

[starfish]

I still want someone to gossip with me about Karen Santorum and her life of sin before she landed Rick!!!!

[ChickeyMonkey]

I think the thing that worries me most about this current debate about abortion rights is this: banning abortions will not make them go away. It will merely drive them back into the back alleys where they have been for as far back as you care to go. It is already happening. Here is an article discussing just this from the BBC website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16618156

This is what I was trying to say, only you said it better. :)

I still want someone to gossip with me about Karen Santorum and her life of sin before she landed Rick!!!!

Did you read the part in the article where she even accompanied a friend who decided to have an abortion?

“She told me it wasn’t that bad, that I shouldn’t be worried,†says Mary, who ultimately went on her own, and met Allen and Garver for dinner later that night. “She was very supportive.â€

That sounds to me like she had one herself, but probably not. She was probably just comforting her and basing her words on what other women and her boyfriend had told her about having an abortion.

[keeperrox]

Dear Frothy, go fuck yourself.

[Guest Anonymous]

I still want someone to gossip with me about Karen Santorum and her life of sin before she landed Rick!!!!

What I want to know is why, after landing him, didn't she throw him back?

[ElijahsMama807]

What I want to know is why, after landing him, didn't she throw him back?

Exactly..he's the kind of catch I don't think anybody would want.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Also, if a woman did carry the rapist baby, can you imagine the legal rights the father could then be given!? We would literally be going into some warped thing of where the rapist can continue to control and actually have parental rights of the child the woman is forced to carry! *shudders* it doesn't even bare thinking of!

I actually had a case where this happened. Mom, who was somewhat developmentally delayed, recognized that the best option for the baby was adoption. Rapist opposed the move and sought custody instead, resulting in a year of traumatic court appearances.

[lilah]

The Worst of Times by Patricia Miller is a collection of stories from women who had illegal abortions, people who provided them, people whose mothers died from illegal abortions, and law enforcement professionals. It's definitely good reading, if seriously infuriating/depressing.

Pro-lifers like to always talk about adoption but even in the pre roe vs wade, many women who put children up for adoption were treated horribly. I'd also recommend any pro-woman's rights, pro bodily autonomy folks also read The Girls Who Went Away: The Hidden History of Women Who Surrendered Children for Adoption in the Decades Before Roe v. Wade by Ann Fessler.

It's a collection of oral histories of women who got pregnant out of wedlock and were forced/railroaded into putting their children up for adoption. Most of them were forced to go to these homes in other states where they could hide away from their family's and neighbors. Many of them gave birth in barbaric conditions (no option for pain relief, often without medical attention. or forced to give birth under general anesthesia without their consent) and then their babies were taken away from them, again without their consent. Very horrifying and traumatic. Many of these women wanted to keep their children but were not allowed to do so, and were lied to by the adoption agencies.

While there are still a lot of ethical issues in domestic adoption, I have to wonder if the combined de-stigmatization of out of wedlock pregnancies/single motherhood combined with safe and legal abortions has forced the adoption industry to adopt more ethical practices and even support levels of open adoption.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Here's the basic problem with the "only for rape" or "only for life/health of the mother" laws: you are deliberately setting up a system where you are distorting the way that either rape or health issues would be handled.

Hypothetically, what would happen if there was a ban except for cases of rape? You cannot possibly have a full criminal trial prior to the abortion. In fact, any delay poses health risks and also allows the fetus to move farther from "clump of cells" to " baby". So you'd have to rely on the word of the woman seeking the abortion. Now, if abortion foes don't want this to be used to allow wide-open abortion, they'd likely insist that any woman claiming rape actually press criminal charges. So if a woman has a pressing reason for an abortion, she's faced with the choice of being honest and being forced to carry to term, or of fabricating a story in order to get the abortion. The is horrible for men if it means false rape allegations, and it's horrible for women who are genuine rape victims because defense attorneys would use the existence of this law to argue that ALL rape allegations are likely false.

I've heard reasonably reliable reports from jurisdictions that have a "danger to life or health of mother, or serious prenatal defect" rule for abortions that doctors in these places do tend to over-diagnose problems. The doctors know that they are the key to an abortion, and many are sympathetic, but they can't just say "perform it based on patient's wishes" so they have to document medical need in the file. Therefore, when a woman comes in pregnant and mentions that she's worried, a doctor can take this as a sign to document psychological distress or find a potential physical reason to recommend abortion. By contrast, in a place that has simply legalized abortion, there's no need to provide a medical pretext and issues can be dealt with in a more straightforward way.

The flip side is that in staunchly anti-abortion areas, doctors may refuse to believe or assist women in genuine medical need. Let me be VERY clear on this: even today in North America, women still die from pregnancy-related complications. The problem with "life-threatening situations only" is that the definitions varies, and if you wait until the last possible moment just to make sure that the woman would REALLY die without an abortion, you put her life at risk. Here's an example: my hubby had trouble arranging a 14-week abortion for a woman with unstable lupus. Lupus, if it is not controlled, is potentially fatal, and the medications that are needed to control it are not safe for use during pregnancy. So no, the woman was not about to drop dead then and there, but if the lupus was flaring up performing an abortion wouldn't magically restore her health instantly or prevent severe organ damage. My BIL also saw a woman die at a Catholic hospital, 1 week after her water broke at 20 weeks. Initially, my BIL couldn't understand why the OB kept checking the fetal heartbeat instead of doing an immediate abortion.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The fate of children born out-of-wedlock during the 1940s and 1950s who filled orphanages was not always pleasant. Here's a horrific account of what was happening in Quebec (which was strictly Catholic at the time):

http://archives.cbc.ca/society/youth/topics/1633/

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/s ... BDA/deaths

(news sources, no need to break the link)

[starfish]

Exactly..he's the kind of catch I don't think anybody would want.

"Cuz he's rich!!!! I mean, really, really, rich. She probably just imagines dollar signs when they have relations..... hehehehehahaha

She was one of 12 kids and while her dad was a doctor, he wasn't the superwealthy anesthesiologist kind or surgeon kind. She probably got a taste of the good life while living with the old guy, and didn't want to go back. I don't think she's ever had a job since she took up with Santorum but I could be wrong about it.

[starfish]

Actually, I think it's Mitt that is superwealthy. I think I might be wrong about the level of Santorum's wealth. And we all know that Mitt's marriage was arranged by the Mormom death squads; ergo, it's a love match.

[BravaAmica]

Another question: Are many of these people too young to remember the horrors that happened to women because they sought abortions before Woe v. Wade was made legal? Do they really think all the women who get pregnant from rape, incest, or unwantedly - be it from not taking precautions to having birth control fail - are *really* going to just go ahead and keep the baby just because that's what the law says? When people are desperate, they find ways and means to end pregnancies, and the outcomes aren't always happy - death, infertility, etc.

Yes, they remember. Or they've heard about it. But. They. Do. Not. Care. They don't care if it will wreck her life. And they certainly don't care if she dies having an illegal abortion.

[starfish]

It's forced birth and the subjugation of woman.

These are the same folks who are happy to see Planned Parenthood shut down, even if millions of women are without access to fundamental health care. They'd rather women die from lack of access to health care than see any money whatsoever go to PP, even if there are no abortions performed at any PP's in the state. They'd rather a woman die from an ectopic pregnancy, with no chance of survival, than have an abortion to remove it.

Real pro life of them. That's why I think a better term if "forced birth".

[freealljs]

It's forced birth and the subjugation of woman.

These are the same folks who are happy to see Planned Parenthood shut down, even if millions of women are without access to fundamental health care. They'd rather women die from lack of access to health care than see any money whatsoever go to PP, even if there are no abortions performed at any PP's in the state. They'd rather a woman die from an ectopic pregnancy, with no chance of survival, than have an abortion to remove it.

Real pro life of them. That's why I think a better term if "forced birth".

Those folks have no clue what it is like to have a high risk pregnancy and no money, well, no money for basic female health care. PP does more than abortions, which they fail to consider. They do planned parenting, birth control, counseling, and other things. They make it sound like all women who go to PP are lining up for abortions out the door.

I was once fundy (for a brief time in my teens), and I remember the crazy pastor always said how he hated PP because they would sign women up for abortions when they didn't want one or that loose women were using abortions as a means of birth control. But the reality is the people at PP recommend all other options first before abortions. Also, after I stopped thinking like a fundy, I actually volunteered at a free women's health clinic for four months that performed abortions. The women I met really agonized over having the procedure. Some were religious, some had health issues that would have made it difficult to carry the fetuses to term, some were raped, some just got pregnant despite being on birth control, but all of them found the whole experience very traumatic and NOT ONE of them used it as a means of birth control. In fact, the clinic required all those who decided to have abortions to go to counseling afterward. Then, they would have to deal with anti-abortionists near the clinic with signs telling them they were murdering their babies. The staffers and I also got rotten fruit thrown at us or our cars at the nearby light down the road. I still remember some of the things that they said, like I was a baby killer, I was advocating prostitution (I'm still trying to figure that one out), I would burn in hell, etc.

Some women had been raped and became pregnant. Now, these fundies tend to forget that rape is a very traumatic experience, in which the woman feels powerless. Most of the women who came in were dealing with some form of PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). Forcing a woman to carry a rapist's baby is like saying to her she cannot reclaim her power. Most of the women who came in and were pregnant from rape were date raped or raped by their boyfriends or husbands. Sad, but true. It's not as easy as I think that Santorum mentioned somewhere for a woman to "just get over it" when it comes to rape. It just shows how closed-minded people like him are, and it scares me that people (and women!) in the 21st century still feel this way. Also those women who were raped were insulted by those pro-lifers outside the clinic doors, which made me quite angry at times, even now, because when I drive past my local PP, I can still see pro-lifers and their signs and I'm pretty sure they're not all civil once people leave the safety zone.

I agree with those commenters who have mentioned the legal ramifications of "only in the case of rape" or "health".

I also want to know what these people think will happen if abortions are banned. People aren't going to suddenly start going to church or become religious and wear modest wear. People aren't going to stop having sex. Bad husbands will still cheat on their wives and rape them. Even if people started "courting" with chaperones, things can go wrong and women can still get raped. It doesn't take long for a woman to get raped.

I think every one of those people who believe that a clinic like PP is all about abortions (with a turnstile for women to have abortions) should actually volunteer at a clinic sometime. They may actually stop spouting hate and ignorance and learn a few things.

[genericJname]

and the belief that women are untrustworthy is the real underlying link, I think - remember McCain's "health of the mother" air quotes? They do not believe any woman who gets an abortion is telling the truth about why they got one or what the consequences were ("I know that in your secret heart you're greiving...")

Oh I absolutely remember, the women's health air quotes :? I'm pretty sure that was the same debate as he explained that not everyone deserves a "Cadillac health insurance" that covers transplants. That election was going on right when my 1 yr old boy got a transplant, so that he wouldn't be dying from heart failure anymore. What a silly little luxury for him. :x So apparently being pro-life means caring about everyone's lives except people with uteruses and people with chronic health conditions.

[ChickeyMonkey]

It's forced birth and the subjugation of woman.

These are the same folks who are happy to see Planned Parenthood shut down, even if millions of women are without access to fundamental health care. They'd rather women die from lack of access to health care than see any money whatsoever go to PP, even if there are no abortions performed at any PP's in the state. They'd rather a woman die from an ectopic pregnancy, with no chance of survival, than have an abortion to remove it.

Real pro life of them. That's why I think a better term if "forced birth".

See, that's what I don't get. It's cutting your nose off to spite your face. Not only is the pregnancy not going to result in a person (although they'll argue that it might) the mother, who is already alive, will die. Agonizingly, right? So to me, they can't say they're Pro-Life when one life - a potential life - is more important than one that is already here and alive. It doesn't make any sense. Instead of losing a potential life (that isn't going to make it anyway), they're losing 2 lives: one potential, one actual. The numbers aren't on their side when you think about it like that. I know I'm preaching to the choir, though.

[genericJname]

When my husband and I first started dating, he still believed in the "of course rape victims" should have access to abortion, but women shouldn't be allowed to have abortions "as birth control." I finally brought up to him one day the whole practical issue of how you would do that legally. Does the exception only apply if there is a conviction? Only if there is a police report in a certain amount of time? What if false accusations of rape increase? (And what does that do to the chances for prosecution of real rapists?) Just thinking it through logically, he finally realized that it didn't make any sense.

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh I absolutely remember, the women's health air quotes :? I'm pretty sure that was the same debate as he explained that not everyone deserves a "Cadillac health insurance" that covers transplants. That election was going on right when my 1 yr old boy got a transplant, so that he wouldn't be dying from heart failure anymore. What a silly little luxury for him. :x So apparently being pro-life means caring about everyone's lives except people with uteruses and people with chronic health conditions.

genericJname - that has to be so scary. I'm sorry that you and your little guy and your family had to go through that. I'm so glad that he did get the transplant he needed, and I hope he's doing well.

I don't understand how anyone can read a story like yours and feel that it's okay for someone to go without healthcare because they have crappy insurance. It's freaking gut-wrenching and I don't get it.

My sister's insurance wouldn't pay for a medication that my nephew needed and she could not afford to pay for it out of pocket. She eventually got the drug company to offer it at a low cost, but that was because she was lucky enough to get a sympathetic person on the phone. I'm sure that doesn't happen for everyone. I'm going to go ahead and say that if someone doesn't think all kids deserve adequate healthcare, they're pretty much evil.

[ChickeyMonkey]

Those folks have no clue what it is like to have a high risk pregnancy and no money, well, no money for basic female health care. PP does more than abortions, which they fail to consider. They do planned parenting, birth control, counseling, and other things. They make it sound like all women who go to PP are lining up for abortions out the door.

I was once fundy (for a brief time in my teens), and I remember the crazy pastor always said how he hated PP because they would sign women up for abortions when they didn't want one or that loose women were using abortions as a means of birth control. But the reality is the people at PP recommend all other options first before abortions. Also, after I stopped thinking like a fundy, I actually volunteered at a free women's health clinic for four months that performed abortions. The women I met really agonized over having the procedure. Some were religious, some had health issues that would have made it difficult to carry the fetuses to term, some were raped, some just got pregnant despite being on birth control, but all of them found the whole experience very traumatic and NOT ONE of them used it as a means of birth control. In fact, the clinic required all those who decided to have abortions to go to counseling afterward. Then, they would have to deal with anti-abortionists near the clinic with signs telling them they were murdering their babies. The staffers and I also got rotten fruit thrown at us or our cars at the nearby light down the road. I still remember some of the things that they said, like I was a baby killer, I was advocating prostitution (I'm still trying to figure that one out), I would burn in hell, etc.

Some women had been raped and became pregnant. Now, these fundies tend to forget that rape is a very traumatic experience, in which the woman feels powerless. Most of the women who came in were dealing with some form of PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). Forcing a woman to carry a rapist's baby is like saying to her she cannot reclaim her power. Most of the women who came in and were pregnant from rape were date raped or raped by their boyfriends or husbands. Sad, but true. It's not as easy as I think that Santorum mentioned somewhere for a woman to "just get over it" when it comes to rape. It just shows how closed-minded people like him are, and it scares me that people (and women!) in the 21st century still feel this way. Also those women who were raped were insulted by those pro-lifers outside the clinic doors, which made me quite angry at times, even now, because when I drive past my local PP, I can still see pro-lifers and their signs and I'm pretty sure they're not all civil once people leave the safety zone.

I agree with those commenters who have mentioned the legal ramifications of "only in the case of rape" or "health".

I also want to know what these people think will happen if abortions are banned. People aren't going to suddenly start going to church or become religious and wear modest wear. People aren't going to stop having sex. Bad husbands will still cheat on their wives and rape them. Even if people started "courting" with chaperones, things can go wrong and women can still get raped. It doesn't take long for a woman to get raped.

I think every one of those people who believe that a clinic like PP is all about abortions (with a turnstile for women to have abortions) should actually volunteer at a clinic sometime. They may actually stop spouting hate and ignorance and learn a few things.

Maybe Santorum should be ass raped and told to get over it. And not just by a foreign object, but by another man. How does he feel about prison ministries...?

[ukool23]

What the hell?! What about the womans choice weather to have the child or not? How would you explain to the child why they are alive, who thier father was. Rape is tramatic enough without having an unwanted pregnancy on top of it.